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Posted by ppew 8 hours ago

Create value for others and don’t worry about the returns(geohot.github.io)
460 points | 298 commentspage 3
nathancroissant 6 hours ago|
As others have said, it's a very optimistic view that can be infuriating to read when you are struggling to pay your bills.

I'd also argue it's not very effecicient : we are at our best when we have deadlines and clear targets to reach, and making money to pay the bills can be a very motivating one to stop procrastinating !

borski 6 hours ago||
> we are at our best when we have deadlines and clear targets to reach

I'd argue we are at our best when those deadlines and clear targets are intrinsic rather than extrinsic, and that intrinsic motivation of that sort is actually more efficient than extrinsic, as it keeps you going much longer.

But yes, that's not always possible and depends greatly on your circumstances.

However, it is often much more possible than people allow themselves to think.

randomgermanguy 5 hours ago||
I think the author might argue, that simply becoming more efficient at creating a rent-seeking mechanism is not beneficial. No matter how well motivated you are to improve your zero-sum game skills, it's still zero-sum.

Or something like that.

kjgkjhfkjf 7 hours ago||
> if you have a job where you create complexity for others, you will be found out

This explains the panic. It describes most roles in big tech.

CrzyLngPwd 5 hours ago||
Non-attachment to outcomes has always been one of the cornerstones of life.
keyle 7 hours ago||
That was my contracting philosophy for 15 years.

Create more value than what I cost, otherwise why are you paying me?

austin-cheney 7 hours ago|
Yes, but I make it more precise into two points:

1. Build tools/libraries that empower superior execution performance. If you can execute faster than others you have more potential free time than them. This is a form of compound interest. I do this for myself but my output is not exclusive to myself.

2. Be operational. Create products that are always more durable than what is trendy, but when something does break return a resolution as rapidly as possible, provided excellent regression testing. Be constantly healthy, healing once injuries are found, and constantly aware of new injuries.

I find most people cannot do those two things. Most people cannot measure things and a great many people fear novelty.

xodn348 7 hours ago||
It's better to be a happy optimist than a smart pessimist.
tonyedgecombe 1 hour ago||
That's assuming you get a choice in the matter.
wartywhoa23 4 hours ago||
Pessimists are still happier in the long run: they are either proved right, or pleasantly surprised.
fragmede 4 hours ago||
At the cost of being negative and miserable the whole time? If you integrate over time, being proven right or pleasantly surprised at the end doesn't make up for having been in the red for the duration.
MinimalAction 5 hours ago||
All these feel good articles are very ideal in nature, I feel. Not to be the doomsayer, but without a solid backup of resources (be it money, power or some such thing), I find it hard to imagine to be this 'careless' towards returns. World indeed feels like a Red Queen race.
Archer6621 5 hours ago|
A couple of other people have expressed similar sentiments here, and I think it's the truth. You have to be in a position to give before you can sustain it reliably and/or reap the benefits from it.

Often though, this position is highly subjective and mental in nature. A homeless man could willingly give his food away, and still somehow be fine with that, if he believes that things will be fine regardless somehow (perhaps he has an alternative source of food, or sincerely doesn't think that skipping food once will set him back forever). At the other hand, someone with a difficult and tedious job that pays well may not feel like they have the time or energy to give without necessarily receiving anything in return, even though they may objectively be in a much better overall position for it.

I guess altruism necessarily requires some other essential basic needs to be in abundance first before it can overflow.

burnt-resistor 6 hours ago||
The surest recipe to becoming a sucker and being left with nothing is leaving ownership and properly valuing your contributions to chance rather than respecting essential details. Anyone advising others they should just shrug and ignore it is either a moron or trying to play them.

Workers should generally aim to unionize and seek to capture more of their value through worker-owned co-ops.

latenightcoding 7 hours ago||
[deleted]
borski 6 hours ago||
You misunderstood. All geohot is saying is the same thing Scott Galloway constantly says - your job is to create surplus value. Provide more value than you take, over your lifetime, not over any specific one period, either.

The argument is that if you do that, returns will naturally come your way.

The issue is that many people never provide surplus value at all; some can't, and that is obviously completely acceptable (people who are disabled, have medical conditions, or who for some other reason cannot). But those who are able and choose not to provide surplus value are who he's talking about.

You may not agree, and that's okay, but that's the argument.

zelphirkalt 5 hours ago||
I wish that argument was trivially true. Yet we see tons of disadvantaged people working the real tough jobs helping the elderly or sick and they are getting precious little in return.

And to a lesser degree, I have been doing nothing but providing value. All my projects are free/libre, yet returns have not come my way at all. In fact people who could make returns come my way, for example by offering me a job that I am clearly well suited for, refuse to take a look at these projects.

Perhaps the argument is also about non-financial returns, and things like friendships, but I don't feel especially well connected either, even though I try to help anyone I can help in the areas I am active in.

I don't think the argument matches reality, unfortunately.

zozbot234 5 hours ago||
The "real tough jobs" pay little because the marginal job of that kind does not really create that much value. That in turn happens because the most disadvantaged tend to crowd into these jobs, to the neglect of other, more value-creating activities - yet another issue that might be handily addressed by UBI.
samiv 4 hours ago|||
Yet these were the "essential workers" during the pandemic. Not the VCs, not the hedge fund managers, not the industrialists or bankers or rich housewives.

And all they got for their efforts were applauds.

Reality is that without their work all our societies would have failed and fallen.

Almost any common folks agrees that for example nurses aren't paid enough.

The real issue is that our "valuation" scheme is controlled by the wealthy not by the people and the only metric is what makes the rich richer.

zelphirkalt 4 hours ago|||
Phew, I am having a real hard time agreeing with you there. I mean, just imagine what would happen, if those social and tough jobs were not performed by people dedicated specifically to doing those jobs. Then we would all have to take care of our family's elderly and that can easily turn into a full time job itself. Let just one relative have Alzheimers or they for some reason cannot move any longer, or even less drastic conditions, that still require you to watch over them, and you will have all hands full taking care of them. This is the reason, why in many societies we decided to outsource this to people whose sole job it is to take care of other people.

Or take nurses for example. You really think they provide low value? Tell me more, when you are seeing a hospital from the inside at some point. Yet they are not paid much.

zozbot234 4 hours ago||
That's why I stated that the marginal job is what sets the reward. We actually have a lot more people wanting to do these jobs than we reasonably have a use for. Your mention of hospital nursing is actually a case in point: actual Registered Nurses are quite scarce, often do highly valuable, specialized work, and get paid a lot.
filleduchaos 1 hour ago||
What on earth are you talking about? In the US (which seems to be the context in question), Actual Registered Nurses™ are not by any means "scarce" and in fact make up the clear majority of all nurses. Nor do they get "paid a lot" compared to the demands of their jobs, especially considering this is a country that throws the same salaries at people for the mighty skill of writing JavaScript for a SaaS.
JSR_FDED 6 hours ago|||
That's not what he's saying. At a company level he's saying that if they make more profit than they add value they have an indefensible business model and will eventually lose to bigger players.

At a personal level you can live your life similarly, add value where you can. You can do that by joining an organization that adds value as well.

nine_k 6 hours ago||
People volunteer e.g. playing games for free, spending considerable time and effort. The point is that the process is enjoyable by itself.

When it starts to feel like work, it starts to feel like needing wages for it.

minmax2020 7 hours ago||
Can anyone explain the rent seeker paragraph? Which companies are playing 0 sum game and which are not? Are all big players not rent seekers?
georgehotz 7 hours ago||
Building tools and services to reduce hassle and friction for others is great. However, what often happens is that you end up creating and building a moat around that hassle. Think about how companies like TurboTax lobby the government to not build electronic tax filing stuff.

Cory Doctorow explains the dynamics well in Enshittification. First they turn against their users, then their business partners, then their employees. The layoffs you are seeing are just stage 3 enshittification. If you work at a company like this, my advice is to quit ASAP. At least then you leave on your own terms.

simianwords 7 hours ago|||
i'm fairly certain Cory Doctorow does not understand the economics of Enshittification.

companies subsidise their products so that exploration of these products is more feasible due to lower initial costs for the end consumers. the initial consumers don't pay the full price but they are borne by the later consumers once the exploration is done and they have knowledge about that market and business.

Cory Doctorow also probably confuses democratisation and enshittifaction - its usually the case that products get cheaper by also marginally reducing the quality. we get cheap goods from China but that's not enshittification - that's just efficiency. as a consumer I'm happy I have the option of paying low prices for products.

i wouldn't take this person too seriously because it looks like they don't understand the larger picture

pestaa 7 hours ago||
What are you talking about. Cory literally coined the term to describe this phenomena. He is not confused by the idea of cheaper products with wider appeal. He takes issue with vendor lock-in that is weaponized first against the end-user, then against paying customers, and finally against investors themselves. This is first and foremost a criticism of online products and platforms, not mass-produced gadgets from China.
borski 6 hours ago|||
TurboTax is a prototypical example of rent-seeking.
franciscop 7 hours ago|||
Do you think e.g. the AI/LLM boom is all rent seeking? Do you think there's no positive value for the world on the recently announced e.g. MacBook Neo and that it's purely a monopolistic activity? Those are 2 clear recent examples of big players making massive benefits for the world, and I'm okay if they get X% of that value as company valuation.
georgehotz 7 hours ago|||
Not at all. OpenAI / Anthropic are producing tons of surplus value right now! Not to mention how great the Chinese open source LLMs are. And Apple's hardware division has always been fine.

Apple's 30% tax for payments in apps is the ultimate rent seeking example though. Want to install your own apps, lol you can't. And if big AI companies follow in the steps of Google/Facebook it's bad for everyone. Let's recognize it and prevent it from happening this time.

franciscop 2 hours ago|||
Strongly agree! I was answering my parent comment that had a very negative view, it is indeed an amazing situation where' in!
zelphirkalt 5 hours ago|||
How should we prevent it, considering the huge financial incentives they have to go exactly that?
customname 7 hours ago||||
Wait what's a new laptop doing to push the needle exactly? Genuinely curious
SyneRyder 6 hours ago|||
It's an 8GB RAM 256GB SSD laptop with a lower spec'd 6-core chip for $599 USD. Seems overhyped to me, PCs have done that for a while, just not as elegantly. Admittedly it probably has far better battery life than a PC, so that's a genuine advantage.
sfink 7 hours ago||||
In general, it's kind of the difference between having a sharp axe vs a dull axe.

Though in the particular case of the MacBook Neo, I'm not sure whether we're talking about sharper or duller. Depends on the metric you're using, I guess.

rvrs 7 hours ago|||
The Neo is supposed to be the budget version. I think MacOS is a decent computing platform for some engineering and creative endeavors -- if one more college kid gets access to it for cheaper I say it's a positive
chirau 7 hours ago|||
Macbook Neo is just another laptop. There is nothing "massive benefits for the world" in the context you are trying to put it. And doesn't Apple take close to a third in 'rent' for anything on their platform?
georgehotz 7 hours ago||
The bar isn't massive benefits for the world, the MacBook Neo is great! If there was a new company that builds MacBook Neos, that's a great company. They build something real and sell it for more than it costs to make, no strings attached.

The problem with Apple comes down to the App Store, the forced 30%, and all the apps that just don't get built cause of Apple. This is rent seeking, and this is evil.

Here's a good system for evaluating technologies: https://www.ranprieur.com/tech.html

If you don't want a MacBook Neo, don't buy one and it doesn't affect your life. But the App Store affects your life whether you own an iPhone or not. It affects the direction of the world. And that's where the rent seeking problem is.

borski 6 hours ago|||
Unlike profit-seeking, which creates value, rent-seeking redistributes existing resources, often through lobbying for subsidies, tariffs, or favorable regulations, causing economic inefficiency and higher prices.

So geohot's argument is that Anthropic, for example, who want to regulate AI (presumably favorably for themselves) are such an example. I don't actually think I agree, but I agree that the behavior looks similar on the surface.

rvz 7 hours ago||
> Which companies are playing 0 sum game and which are not?

Most of the US ones are. Anthropic is the worst offender.

The Chinese AI model providers like DeepSeek are not.

tim-projects 2 hours ago|
You only have to look at ai slop taking over to see that what most people value is stupid.

A better mantra is to create value for yourself and then compound it by sharing it. Then you can't lose, yet can win even more.

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