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Posted by souvlakee 16 hours ago

Kotlin creator's new language: talk to LLMs in specs, not English(codespeak.dev)
284 points | 245 commentspage 9
kleiba 15 hours ago|
I cannot read light on black. I don't know, maybe it's a condition, or simply just part of getting old. But my eyes physically hurt, and when I look up from reading a light-on-black screen, even when I looked at only for a short moment, my eyes need seconds to adjust again.

I know dark mode is really popular with the youngens but I regularly have to reach for reader mode for dark web pages, or else I simply cannot stand reading the contents.

Unfortunately, this site does not have an obvious way of reading it black-on-white, short of looking at the HTML source (CTRL+U), which - in fact - I sometimes do.

newsoftheday 14 hours ago||
Same for me, has been my whole life. I complain about it all the time. It's well documented that people can read black on light far better and with less eye strain than light on black; yet there seems to be a whole generation of developers determined to force us all to try and read it. Even the media sites like Netflix, Prime, etc. force it. At least Tubi's is somewhat more readable.

Sometimes a site will include a button or other UI element to choose a light theme but I find it odd that so many sites which are presumed to be designed by technically competent people, completely ignore accessibility concerns.

DoctorOW 12 hours ago||
The most common mistake I see (on this website at least) is the assumption that one's programming competence is equal to their competence in other things.
jbritton 11 hours ago|||
I find dark mode much easier to read and far less eye strain. I guess it just shows that users should be the ones to set the preference. There are studies on monkeys showing light mode leading to myopia. Although lately I have come to learn there are lots of poorly done studies.
embedding-shape 15 hours ago|||
Do you sit in a bright room? Right now, during the night, I see your comment like this: https://i.imgur.com/c7fmBns.png, but during the day when the room is bright, I also see everything with light themes/background colors, otherwise it is indeed hard to see properly.
kleiba 15 hours ago|||
Unfortunately, in my case, it's not a matter of lighting conditions.
skydhash 14 hours ago|||
When it’s dark (I can’t stand bright rooms at night), I lower the brightness of my screens instead of going for dark mode. I have astigmatism and any tiny bright spot is hard to focus on. It’s easier when the bright part is large and the dark parts are small (black on white is best).
cambrianentropy 13 hours ago|||
Yeah I am the same.

Definitely in the minority on this one as dark mode is really popular these days.

Really hard to describe how it is literally physically painful for my eyes. Very strange.

lainproliant 13 hours ago||
I feel your pain. For me it is the opposite: I get headaches from bright backgrounds because I'm light-sensitive.
jaredklewis 11 hours ago||
THe HN title seems very misleading to me. How is this, in any sense of the word, "formal?" I don't see that particular word used to describe this tool on the web page itself.

The site does describe it as a "programming language," which feels like a novel use of the term to me. The borders around a term like "programming language" are inherently fuzzy, but something like "code generation tool" better describes CodeSpeak IMHO.

dang 10 hours ago|
Ok we've deformalized the title above.
sriramgonella 14 hours ago||
[flagged]
mempko 14 hours ago||
I think the magic sauce in this project is the fact that they convert diffs in spec to diffs in code, which is likely more stable than just regenerating the whole thing.
skydhash 14 hours ago||
The thing is, such exploration can be done on a whiteboard or a moodboard. Once it’s we settled on a process, we code it and let the computer take over.

I really believe the struggle is knowledge and communication of ideas, not the coding part (which is fairly easy IMO).

aplomb1026 13 hours ago||
[flagged]
lich_king 16 hours ago||
We built LLMs so that you can express your ideas in English and no longer need to code.

Also, English is really too verbose and imprecise for coding, so we developed a programming language you can use instead.

Now, this gives me a business idea: are you tired of using CodeSpeak? Just explain your idea to our product in English and we'll generate CodeSpeak for you.

Sharlin 15 hours ago||
I'm sure that this time the language will be simple and English-like enough that execs can use it directly, similarly to COBOL and SQL.
kevin_thibedeau 15 hours ago|||
The idea is this would be a kind of IL for natural language queries. Then the main LLM isn't dependent on quirks of English.
souvlakee 15 hours ago|||
No joke. I'm 100% sure that if it's successful, we will find CC's skill to write specs for CodeSpeak.
lucasoshiro 14 hours ago||
Yeah. It's hard to express and understand nested structures in a natural language yet they are easy in high-level programming languages. E.g. "the dog of first son of my neighbour" vs "me.neighbour.sons[0].dog", "sunny and hot, or rainy but not cold" vs "(sunny && hot) || (rainy && !cold)".

In the past maths were expressed using natural language, the math language exists because natural language isn't clear enough.

lich_king 14 hours ago||
Did you mean AbstractNeighborDispatcherFactory?
theK 15 hours ago|||
Damn, I am the product A-GAIN?
amelius 15 hours ago|||
COBOL?
mosburger 15 hours ago|||
sssssh! if this catches on we can keep our jobs! (j/k, mostly)
devmor 14 hours ago|||
That seems like it could lead to imprecise outcomes, so I've started a business that defines a spec to output the correct English to input to your product.
ramon156 14 hours ago|||
I'm really glad random HN commenters know it better than someone that built a language that has been used in thousands of products.
awkwardpotato 14 hours ago|||
Standard appeal to accomplishment, past success does not guarantee future success... especially on this joke comment
allthetime 14 hours ago||||
Kotlin is generally considered a bit of a dud in the modern programming language space.
hitekker 11 hours ago|||
I reckon this comment from 6 years ago predicts Kotlin's fate https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24197817 I consider it prophetic.

My gut says Kotlin is great for individual developer experience. But I never heard or saw credible reports on the Total Cost of Ownership, e.g., Kotlin engineers hiring, swapping out on a team.

prophesi 13 hours ago||||
It's a blessing when you're in the native Android / React Native / Flutter space.
bschmidt1 5 hours ago|||
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anthk 13 hours ago|||
Even Noble Prize owners made huge mistakes after the prize.
cratermoon 14 hours ago|||
relevant Dijkstra https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD06xx/EWD667...

"In order to make machines significantly easier to use, it has been proposed (to try) to design machines that we could instruct in our native tongues. this would, admittedly, make the machines much more complicated, but, it was argued, by letting the machine carry a larger share of the burden, life would become easier for us. It sounds sensible provided you blame the obligation to use a formal symbolism as the source of your difficulties. But is the argument valid? I doubt."

dragonelite 14 hours ago||
Somewhere Dijkstra is laughing his ass off.
weezing 13 hours ago||
I'll stick to Polish
Steinmark 7 hours ago||
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taintlord 13 hours ago||
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neopointer 11 hours ago||
The next step is to use AI to edit the spec... /s
rcvassallo83 13 hours ago|
Its early for April fools
dang 10 hours ago|
"Don't be snarky."

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

rcvassallo83 4 hours ago||
Thanks for the reminder