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Posted by inaros 4 hours ago

What happens when US economic data becomes unreliable(mitsloan.mit.edu)
246 points | 208 commentspage 2
arjie 3 hours ago|
One of the things I do like about the US, and that I think is a reason for America's ability to meet the challenges this country faces is that it has good data collection and aggregation mechanisms: from the seemingly-banal surveys and so on to satellite remote-sensing.

There's three more years to go but afterwards (and perhaps even post the mid-terms) we should be able to hammer back some of this nonsense like being upset about job reports not showing favourable information and so on. Good information allows good decision-making and it's important we don't break that. Hopefully the current surge of low-quality corrupt executive choices isn't met by a counter-surge that kicks out people like Jerome Powell because he's a multi-millionaire capitalist or whatever.

I think it won't be. The establishment folks are mostly sensible. It's the new crop of "no property tax" and "no income tax for tips" and "no tax for under $100k earners" and so on that makes me worried, but I'm hoping it will all settle down soon.

We'll have to find better surveying methods than the phone surveys but provided #2 and #3 are solved in the article, which is just a matter of switching the admin, then we should be able to.

mikeyouse 3 hours ago||
This ratchet effect of partially righting the ship every four years followed by drunken sailors YOLOing further into a reef because the ‘responsible party’ didn’t fix things fast enough is unsustainable. No clue how it ends but it’s so much easier to destroy things than it is to build them, so the builders are always at a distinct disadvantage.
david422 2 hours ago|||
> so much easier to destroy things than it is to build them, so the builders are always at a distinct disadvantage

Tangentially related, there was a local property nearby that had these large, aesthetic trees in the yard. The house was sold, a developer cut them all and flipped the house for sale.

Probably took 50+ years to grow, gone in an hour.

hattmall 2 hours ago|||
I really have a hard time understanding the analogy of the "responsible party" existing, when it was objectively the Biden administration that did the most damage to the average American.
derektank 2 hours ago|||
COVID damaged the average American. The Biden administration (and the preceding Trump administration) did not perform perfectly by any means, but US inflation was below that of most other OECD countries. Real wages took a serious hit and I understand people being mad about that, but it’s hard to imagine a world where the supply chain disruptions don’t cause real living standards to fall at least a little bit.
tastyface 1 hour ago|||
"""objectively"""
davidw 3 hours ago|||
This is going to take a generation or two to fix. If we're lucky and work hard at it.
overfeed 2 hours ago||
...and don't vote in more wreckers the whole time
ks2048 2 hours ago|||
> The establishment folks are mostly sensible.

The establishment has been replaced by MAGA and The Heritage Foundation extremists. The "data collection", surveys, remote-sensing etc are things they all want to get rid of and are doing so.

Here's one article from last year about climate datasets being disappeared,

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20250422-usa-scientists-r...

__MatrixMan__ 3 hours ago||
> just a matter of switching the admin, which we should be able to

I wish I shared your optimism. Being unable to change the admin has been the default state. The recent few centuries have been an exception. It's a big ship that we need to turn here. Might take longer than we think if we can manage it at all.

davidw 2 hours ago||
It's important to be realistic and honest about the short term, but optimistic about the long term. If you give in to doom and get cynical, you won't accomplish anything, and you're just doing their work for them.
chmorgan_ 3 hours ago||
[dead]
fifticon 2 hours ago||
the comment section for this post is a shit show, most of the main comments have been downvoted to gray-land.
estimator7292 2 hours ago|
No, the bad, lazy, and outright incorrect takes are downvoted to oblivion. They just have a lot of child comments because HNers like nothing more than rebutting the dumbest opinions.
kittikitti 3 hours ago||
People in Florida, when I tell them about my background working with data, often scoff and claim that the data can be changed to spread lies. They have a government who arrested a data scientist when she published information about Coronavirus. This is prevalent across all of America, especially after DOGE, who encourage fraud so the data supports their political interests.

I think the reliability problem is very bad. It's not just that the US government is encouraging fraud, it's also that the average American hates AI and data science. Usually, the public would prefer reliable data, but in this case, Americans seem to prefer corruption just to spite the AI.

We're certainly living in a post-truth country. By vilifying higher education, the assumption that Americans can interpret data is challenging. Therefore, Americans are consuming biased information in their online bubbles because their media is comfortable with fraudulent data.

A concrete example of what happens whenUS economic data becomes unreliable is employment numbers. At the end of 2025, the government couldn't produce any data because of the government shutdown. Most quants and analysts utilized ADP numbers instead. A few years ago, the ADP payroll numbers and the projections by the government were perceived as aligned. This is no longer the case, and most traders rely more on ADP indicators for things like the unemployment rate.

Speculating on what other data is fraudulent, I suspect that real Gross Domestic Product (GDP) will become meaningless. It was supposed to be an indicator for economic wellbeing but now best describes wealth inequality. Nominal GDP is a slightly better measure because it adjusts for things like inflation but it's based on government produced data.

Lastly, there is widespread fraud in climate data in order to deny climate change. The data feeds into economic models and affects property values and insurance rates. I have personally received gag orders from government agencies from both the US and Europe for publishing environmental data.

throwawaypath 2 hours ago||
>They have a government who arrested a data scientist when she published information about Coronavirus

That was fake news:

In May 2020, Jones was terminated from her position managing the team that created Florida's ArcGIS COVID-19 dashboard after being repeatedly reprimanded for sharing the department's work online without authorization. Jones alleged instead that she was told to manipulate the dashboard's data and that her firing was retaliation for her refusal. The OIG exonerated state health officials, finding her allegations to be unsubstantiated and unfounded. Jones later posted on social media a forgery of the dismissal letter from the Florida Commission on Human Relations, such that it appeared that her complaint had been validated.

In December 2022, she signed a deferred prosecution agreement admitting guilt to unauthorized use of the state's emergency alert system on November 10, 2020, which resulted in her home being searched under warrant by state police in December 2020. The execution of the warrant with armed police, widely referred to as a raid, was due to a 2016 battery charge against Jones by the Louisiana State University police. In 2023, Jones pled no-contest to a 2019 charge of cyberstalking a former Florida State University student. She was fired from both institutions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebekah_Jones

SoftTalker 2 hours ago|||
> It's not just that the US government is encouraging fraud, it's also that the average American hates AI and data science.

When all they see is it being used to push narratives, they'd rather not have it at all.

Also, "There Are Three Kinds of Lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics" dates to the 1800s. This is nothing new.

XorNot 47 minutes ago||
It is impressive how much damage that phase has actually done to human progress over the last two centuries.
baronswindle 2 hours ago|||
Citing Rebekah Jones in your argument is the opposite of convincing. She forged documents related to her firing to make her appear more sympathetic. She has been adjudicated guilty of cyberstalking and misuse of the state’s emergency notification system, and I haven’t seen a credible defense against those accusations. She’s a fraud, and many in the media uncritically boosted her claims because they shared her political aims. That people still cite her is proof of the old adage that a lie can travel across the world before the truth can lace its boots.
text0404 2 hours ago|||
Can you tell us a bit more about the gag orders? I find it fascinating that all the discussion about climate change has largely disappeared after LLMs became mainstream, and the idea that state actors may be suppressing data is equally fascinating/terrifying.
twodave 1 hour ago|||
I really don’t like people bashing my state, especially when they’re repeating made-up bullshit. Do you just believe anything negative you read as long as it fits your views?
tick_tock_tick 1 hour ago|||
If you start all your conversations with a blatant lie that is incredibly easy to prove as such why are you surprised people scoff at you?
tw-20260303-001 2 hours ago||
“Never trust any data you haven’t manipulated yourself”.
readthenotes1 3 hours ago||
The reported economic data has been squirrelly for many years.

For instance, the employment report (establishment survey) has an error rate or +/- 122,000 with 90% confidence--completely swamping the actual value.

It be like I said I was 2m tall on my dating profile and one date is frightened off by my being -0.2m tall and another by me being 4m tall.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.tn.htm#

twoodfin 3 hours ago||
That’s 122,000 out of a labor force size of 170 million!!

Yes, month to month you have large absolute error bars vs. the monthly delta, but being an imperfect monthly barometer of labor force momentum is only the headline use of the establishment report.

pastage 3 hours ago|||
This is the point #1 in the article, the need for better sampling methods. You do not get that easily.
lostlogin 3 hours ago||
That dating analogy would work better if America wasn’t messing up every relationship with lunatic behaviour.

Everyone swiped left long ago.

booleandilemma 3 hours ago||
It's what we regularly accuse China of, right?

While we're on the topic, why is it that we love to point the finger at other countries' corruption and we completely ignore the very obvious, rampant corruption in our own government? And I mean on both sides - Democrat and Republican. Insider trading, revolving door policies, etc. That's not even mentioning why we have people like Luigi Mangione. That's a whole separate elephant in the room.

zzleeper 3 hours ago||
Please don't "both side" this. As much as there is corruption in any administration, R or D, the levels we are seeing now are completely unprecedent and blunt. EG: https://www.cnn.com/2026/03/13/politics/trump-fundraise-emai... (from earlier this morning on the HN frontpage)
fhdkweig 2 hours ago||
On that topic, how many presidents in the past have had merch stores after elected? I can understand fundraising during a campaign, but after winning or losing, the fundraising usually stops.
jfengel 2 hours ago|||
The fundraising never stops, not even for lame ducks, because the money can always be delivered into related war chests.

But here it is going directly to the President's pockets. That has never happened before.

bcrosby95 2 hours ago|||
Merch. NFTs. Playing cards. Crypto coins. A phone. It's like we have Dennis Duffy as POTUS. If it were 40 years ago it would be like Reagan starting his own MLM.
fhdkweig 2 hours ago||
And the worst part is, I don't think we will ever close this door. Even if the Democrats are in charge of the next presidency, the temptation of easy money will be too strong to resist. It wasn't done in the past, because it was assumed that the people would push back severely, but now that it is clear that they won't, it is full speed ahead.
tomrod 3 hours ago||
Not accuse. Observed.

This is a lot of similar-sounding-but-different problems.

EDIT:

For those not realizing that China has a long history of less-trustworthy stats, along with Iran and some other governments, here is some reading you can consider

[0] https://sites.pitt.edu/~tgrawski/papers/2001%20What%27s%20Ha...

[1] https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29349/w293...

[2] https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/epr/2...

[3] https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/245398/1/cesifo1_wp9...

[4] https://thedocs.worldbank.org/en/doc/350051528721174623-0050...

[5] https://www.ifo.de/DocDL/cesifo1_wp10630.pdf

[6] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5140733

[7] https://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/13/22/4620

[8] https://www.imf.org/en/publications/wp/issues/2022/06/03/mea...

[9] https://www.ifo.de/DocDL/cesifo1_wp10630.pdf

[10] https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w23323/w233...

[11] https://www.jstor.org/stable/26372649

[12] https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w15199/w151...

[13] https://www.economic-policy.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/S...

[14] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1273505

[15] https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/epr/2...

[16] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10439...

echelon 3 hours ago||
I feel like we're dancing on the razor's edge.

On the one hand: high inflation, tariffs, layoffs, unemployment, high interest rate, energy crisis. Tons of economic red flags flashing.

On the other hand: AI is showing signs of being the next industrial revolution, we're re-industrializing, onshoring/friendshoring, and have a clear lead on chips and space tech at a time when it matters the most.

It's absolutely insane that Claude Code can spit out a week's worth of business automation tasks in half a day. And do it at relatively high quality in low-defect rate languages like Rust.

Europe won't be able to catch that. They're too busy regulating ahead of the tech. They're going to be a decade behind if they keep it up.

If we cut the chip supply right as things take off, China might not either. In a runaway takeoff scenario, they replace all their factory workers with robots and quickly scale and cost optimize. If America is smart, we might be able to do that too.

Our growth could accelerate or crater. These are wild times. More exciting than the last 20.

America needs to start pumping out new energy projects. It needs to make friends with all of its former allies. And it needs to import PhD students.

And we do need factories and raw inputs. The robots will take over for humans within a decade. If we stick the landing, we could be the new China right here at home.

Edit: rate limited on replies, so updating my comment instead.

Edit 2: Europe supplies the EUV lithography, but intelligence manifests higher up the stack. If we're talking rate limits, lots of countries supply critical inputs. I'm saying that Europe hasn't made strides towards developing their own models and infra, and it doesn't look like it's even close to starting to attack this problem. I want it to.

Edit 3: What I'm saying is that these tailwinds might put America back into the position it was in post-WWII. Manufacturing, tech, and science powerhouse in all the places that matter. Peers a generation or two behind. That's literally where America was after the war, and it looks like we could be teeing up for a repeat if it all doesn't unravel first.

America needs to double down on investing in energy and factories now. It looks like it will pay off in a big way.

Edit 4:

> You think Europe won't be able to use Claude Code

I would be extremely geopolitically anxious to rely on another country's tech in a take off scenario. Those tokens might be diverted to US businesses and factories. Or the US might strong arm concessions out of Europe. Europe needs domestic capability for this now.

It's not just Europe and sovereign nations. Workers and labor capital will be effectively frozen out of participation if there aren't open source equivalents.

> This is an downright evil take on the current situation.

It's just reality. Multipolarity means we're going to see a lot more of this type of framing, because it's what's happening on the ground.

gmueckl 3 hours ago||
This is an downright evil take on the current situation. The supply chains are so complex that no single country is capable of replicating them entirely. It starts with the fact that the required natural resources are distributed around the globe in a way that no country has access to all of them. The production chains from resources to finished machines are downright byzantine. And this becomes recursive with the need for specialized tools and their own production chains along the way. You need trains amd trucks and ships to be able to build semiconductors, for example. Except for maybe China pr India, there is no country that has the manpower to cover all of this domestically. The supply of workers and training falls far too short.

Any Western strategy that sees this as both "us vs. them" and also pursues reduced international collaboration is bound to lose bitterly in the long run.

The result is either a silent collapse of that country's economy or the start of an ill-conceived war of conquest to gain by force what the country cannot supply itself.

watwut 2 hours ago||
> Any Western strategy that sees this as both "us vs. them" and also pursues reduced international collaboration is bound to lose bitterly in the long run.

The problem is that Europe does not have a choice here. The Greenland steal crisis is on hold, but not fixed. America clearly shown it will abuse any ties there are - it will lock accounts to tech to bully and get what they want. It will use tariffs to bully countries to make laws, release presidents friends criminals from prisons, you name it.

Meanwhile, America seems to take Russian side in Russian expansion. Meanwhile, America is just cause major oil issue and potentially triggered next refugees crisis. Meanwhile, America clearly shown it does not even pretend to care bout war crimes and international law at all. It is sponsoring afd and other fascist parties all around the Europe while openly insulting Europe. Maybe it is too late for disconnect, but not trying would basically be a suicide for Europe.

It would be great if it was not "us vs them". But it is "us vs them". Trust toward American made Europe super vulnerable.

gmueckl 2 hours ago||
The US isn't the navel of the world. It is one country that is slowly removing itself from international trade and the international scientific community.

The European Union has many friendly trading partners left in the world and is also receiving an influx of previously US based talent. The trade decisions of the US aren't forcing the EU into isolationism. This is where your argument goes wrong IMO.

The US government has announced that it plans to actively support extreme right wing parties in the EU. If this comes to pass, it is a direct attack on political freedom in those countries, separate from any economic policy decisions. I don't know how well EU countries can defend themselves against this in the short amd medium term. Some counties have better defenses than others. But I see virtually all of them struggling.

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago||
> It is one country that is slowly removing itself from international trade and the international scientific community

While asserting itself militarily. This is the Roman Republic —> Empire transition.

ambicapter 3 hours ago|||
> It's absolutely insane that Claude Code can spit out a week's worth of business automation tasks in half a day. And do it at relatively high quality in low-defect rate languages like Rust.

> Europe won't be able to catch that.

You think Europe won't be able to use Claude Code? If Claude Code is the one reaping the majority of the benefits of "spit[ing] out a week's worth of business automation tasks", then it's not worth much to the business. If Claude Code isn't the one reaping the majority of those benefits, then...Europe can use Claude Code too and reap the benefits for their business as well.

CalRobert 3 hours ago||
Well, if it becomes strategically advantageous to bar Europeans from doing so, why would we (Europeans) be permitted continued access?
ambicapter 3 hours ago|||
Weird how all the American social media companies continue to try to operate in Europe in spit of the massive fines they keep on racking up in court. They can't help themselves, if there is money to be made they got to get in there.
CalRobert 3 hours ago||
Social media is a tool to shift public opinion and extract cash from the general populous. Claude, however, is actually useful.
overfeed 2 hours ago||
The US government and software industry do not want Europe using Chinese AI for similar soft power reasons. A 1-billion strong market acclimating to Chinese *aaS is a net-loss for the US - see the panic about Canada allowing a few thousand Chinese cars
A_D_E_P_T 3 hours ago|||
Open models are, at worst, a few months behind SOTA closed models. This has been the case since 2024, and there's no indication that it's going to change.

You don't need anybody to permit you access.

You can, in all seriousness, thank Meta and the Chinese for this.

xenihn 3 hours ago||
"A few months" is an incredibly long time when the gap is widening on a daily basis.
psychoslave 3 hours ago|||
> They're going to be a decade behind if they keep it up.

42 European here.

I've heard my whole adult life that Europe is ten years behind USA.

That doesn't feel that bad though. Being bleeding edge comes with the thrill of the avant garde prestige. But it does also mean you take the downsides of navigating the unexplored unknown in your face with no one to help with turn key solution when it happens.

If it means 10 years buffer on big social seismic troubles, that doesn't sound too bad if there is indeed an efficient shelve. That's not necessarily the case on every matter though, like global climate change is going to impact everyone, no matter the political isolation, and if a direct military aggression happens, it can be hurtful no matter how prepared is the society.

rf15 3 hours ago|||
You really do not understand how interdependent everyone is. The chip machines Taiwan uses come from Europe, for example.

The US kneecapped itself for no reason.

anonnon 2 hours ago||||
> The chip machines Taiwan uses come from Europe, for example.

Yeah, the EUV photolithography machine, but not much else. American companies like Lam Research and Applied Materials are the leaders in thin film deposition and etch, KLA Tencor is the leader in metrology, and Synopsys and Cadance are the leaders in EDA (though there's also Germany's Mentor Graphics).

alephnerd 3 hours ago|||
> The chip machines Taiwan uses come from Europe, for example

The US, not Europe.

ASML's EUV and High NA EUV production is all done in California via US DoE joint ventures (specifically Cymer LLC [0]). Additionally, their metrology IP is Taiwanese [1] as part of ASML's acquisition of HMI back in 2016 with Taiwanese approval [2].

ASML is the capital partner because in the early 2000s, the US government wanted to prevent a duopoly forming between Nikon and Canon for photolithography as part of an antitrust battle.

And the next generation of lithography tooling coming into Taiwan is being funded and developed by Japan [3] due to MUFG, Mitsui, Mizuho, and SoftBank becoming the primary capital partners for Taiwan's electronics industry [4]. This is also why TSMC is expanding in Japan and Taiwanese players are transferring IP to Rapidus.

Additonally, all the packaging, testing, and design work - especially leading edge nodes - is done in Asia, the US, and even Israel but not Europe.

---

Personally, I think Europe is too far behind at this point for the EUV and High NA EUV boom - Taiwan, the US, Japan, South Korea, China, and others deployed significant amounts of capital and subsidizes in the late 2010s and early 2020s and worked to build IP partnerships for front-end work with players like TSMC (US, Japan), UMC (China until 2019), PSMC (Japan, India), and Samsung (US).

The EU had a shot but Intel rolled back their Germany expansion plan in order to double down on 18A in Arizona, and TSMC decided to double down on Japan. Additonally, all the backend work is done in Taiwan, South Korea, China, ASEAN (Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam), Japan, the US, and even India now because Micron, Samsung, Amkor, and others transferred their IP there, and design is primarily concentrated in Taiwan, the US, China, Israel, and India and with Malaysia and Vietnam likely to become much more prominent in the next few years due to Arm and Marvell respectively.

What the EU can instead do is concentrate on power electronics (already a strong suite) and compound semiconductors (already a strong suite) and target a leapfrog technology like 2D semiconductor design and fabrication which is still in it's infancy and also has applications for quantum computing. The EU already has the capacity for "legacy" (but still critical) semiconductors but is too late to the game for sub-14nm fabrication.

And based on the kind of fundamental research and funding I've been seeing in the EU, this is the strategy that appears to be increasingly adopted within the EU - but this is something the US, China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Israel, the UK, Singapore, Canada, and even Vietnam and India are doing as well, and both French and German initiatives risk being misaligned due to mutual industrial competition. The fact that French players in the space would rather collaborate with Singaporean [5], Korean [6], American [7], Israeli [8], and Canadian [9] partners to develop IP instead of with other partners within Europe, it shows issues around misalignment.

On a separate note, as I mentioned before on HN, the French seem to be on the right track - other European states other than the UK less so. French players are much more ruthless and "American" in attitude.

[0] - https://www.cymer.com/

[1] - https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-asml/hmi

[2] - https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2016/asml-obtain...

[3] - https://www.nikkei.com/nkd/company/us/SNPS/news/?DisplayType...

[4] - https://asia.nikkei.com/business/tech/semiconductors/japan-l...

[5] - https://www.pasqal.com/newsroom/three-new-partnerships-signe...

[6] - https://www.pasqal.com/newsroom/pasqal-expands-into-korea/

[7] - https://gov-pritzker-newsroom.prezly.com/governor-pritzker-a...

[8] - https://www.quantum-machines.co/blog/pushing-the-boundaries-...

[9] - https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2024/09/25/quebec-...

RandomLensman 1 hour ago|||
Where can I see the DOE having a stake in Cymer?
alephnerd 1 hour ago||
Department of ENERGY not the DoD.

The EUV IP which Cymer owns was originally part of EUV LLC, which was an LLNL [0], Sandia [1], and Intel [2] initiative as part of a CRADA. Cymer eventually began working on EUV as well building on EUV LLC and SEMATECH's work, and was eventually purchased by ASML after the Dept of Commerce and DoE backed their acquisition in 2013 [4], but included Cymer in additional CRADAs [3], ongoing projects [5], and maintain Cymer as a separate operating unit [6] within ASML.

It is these CRADAs that allow the DoE to exert its muscle on IP ownership and knowhow, as they are essentially a license of IP and personnel on US DoE terms [7] while also allowing for private partners to commercialize.

[0] - https://www.llnl.gov/article/27641/euvl-partnership-makes-it...

[1] - https://newsreleases.sandia.gov/partners-unveil-first-extrem...

[2] - https://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/speeches/EUV91197.HT...

[3] - https://www.osti.gov/biblio/1413999

[4] - https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2013/asml-comple...

[5] - https://www.llnl.gov/article/52226/llnl-selected-lead-next-g...

[6] - https://bidenwhitehouse.archives.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021...

[7] - https://www.directives.doe.gov/directives-documents/400-seri...

RandomLensman 49 minutes ago||
I don't see a stake by the DOE?
Hikikomori 3 hours ago|||
The laser source, not the rest of the machine.
WarmWash 3 hours ago|||
The US used this agreement to bar ASML from selling the machines to China in 2018.

The machine is a clump of metal without the light source.

alephnerd 3 hours ago|||
The metrology is coming from Taiwan and California (HMI) as well. The Veldhoven campus "only" does final assembly (which should not be underestimated either - it's complex and high precision work).

But it's the light source and the metrology that is the blocker.

Edit: can't reply

> And mirrors from Carl Zeiss

Absolutely! But note how Zeiss/Trumpf is not ASML. If the US DoE changes the terms of the Cymer partnership and pressures Taiwan (who have just purchased $8B in US military equipment and whom the EU logistically speaking cannot protect) to revert the HMI acquisition, ASML is over.

Additonally, a lot of the muscle around Zeiss/Trumpf's mirrors is also at the Zeiss office in the Tri-Valley because of their partnership with LLNL.

And both China [0] and Japan [1] are in the process of building an Ex-ASML supply chain for EUV, NA EUV, and DUV, and will likely reach that point by the late 2020s to early 2030s.

[0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/how-china-built-its-manh...

[1] - https://www.nikkei.com/nkd/company/us/SNPS/news/?DisplayType...

Hikikomori 3 hours ago||
And mirrors from Carl Zeiss. Heavy lifting on "only".
10xDev 3 hours ago|||
>Europe won't be able to catch that. If we cut the chip supply right as things take off, China might not either.

https://www.asml.com

CalRobert 3 hours ago|||
I would be worried about the US militarily capturing Eindhoven if Europe dared to cut them off.
microtonal 1 hour ago||
Unlikely, but also not needed. The major ruling parties in The Netherlands are always strongly pro-US. Even if the US would attack the International Criminal Court in The Hague and kidnap its judges, the VVD (the liberal party) and the PVV (extreme-right party) would find ways to defend it.

There is no way they would go as far as cutting the US off from ASML. At least not without a significant shift in Dutch politics.

amelius 3 hours ago|||
ASML is under US export control though. Probably because there is US tech in there.
kettlecorn 3 hours ago|||
I'm not a fan of this "us vs. them" framing.

Arguably the greatest threats to the US's future is ourselves. If we fundamentally corrupt who we are as a nation we've already lost before the competition with rivals has even begun.

Our significant tech advances could become tools of our own downfall if they violate our values or undermine the social mobility of the American dream.

Frankly I think the people pushing this competitive mindset (particularly against the EU) are trying to mislead otherwise intelligent builder-sorts to not pay attention to the looting & destruction of American values.

username135 3 hours ago|||
I have been a nay sayer on LLMs/GPTs in general having tried many, but recently Ive been shepherding a fairly complex code build through the latest opus model and its quite impressive.

It still gets things wrong occasionally but the time its saved me has been substantial. Im starting to enjoy it.

ssl-3 2 hours ago||
I recently built a reasonably-complex embedded controls project using codex and an esp32.

Starting with systems stuff like "Set up vscode with whatever it needs to work with codex and talk to an esp32," and ending with "Now add a web interface with persistent tunables that always runs in both AP and station modes," my prompt inputs were very terse.

And it'd just kind of go forth and just do it. It'd even design and run its own tests.

I never once looked at the code. For all I know, the code doesn't even exist.

And it works. I'll be using it in the field (in the proverbial middle of nowhere) all next week. I have every expectation that it will behave itself.

(I did spend a lot of time defining and refining some ground rules with AGENTS.md, but in theory I get to re-use that effort for the next go.)

gambiting 3 hours ago|||
>>Europe won't be able to catch that. If we cut the chip supply right as things take off, China might not either.

My immediate thought is - why is it a race. Like holy shit imagine if we could actually work together instead of having this mentality of "if we work hard the other countries won't catch that". As someone who grew up in the golden age of globalization and rise of the information superhighway, the way countries are just siloing themselves and treating everything as a zero sum game is both sad and scary - that's exactly how you lead the world on a path to another world war - telling yourself that you don't need anyone else and in fact you need to beat them to the punch and everyone else is your opponent. If an alien race was looking at us right now they'd be shaking their heads.

ordu 3 hours ago|||
People tend to choose extremes. Either a total globalization or zero-sum games only. Everything in between bears risks of a cognitive overload so should be avoided at all costs.
PaulDavisThe1st 2 hours ago||
> People tend to choose extremes.

Corporations, along with greedy, selfish people and also perhaps ignorant people too, tend to choose extremes.

The rest of us are remarkably good at compromising and finding common ground.

WarmWash 3 hours ago|||
I think when Europe failed to handle Ukraine on their own, the optics started looking pretty bad.
CursedSilicon 3 hours ago|||
They're handling Ukraine better than America is "handling" Iran
gambiting 1 hour ago|||
I honestly don't even understand what you mean by that. Europe has accepted an extraordinary number of refugees from Ukraine giving them immediate and full rights to live and work within its territory, keeps donating billions of dollars worth of goods to keep Ukraine going, provides training to Ukrainian military personal and ramped up its military production specifically to bolster Ukraine.

How has Europe failed here? Did you expect Poland to start shooting missiles towards Moscow, or something else?

WarmWash 19 minutes ago||
If the US wasn't around, Russia would likely be rolling around most of Eastern Europe today. From 2022 to 2025, America and Europe went dollar for dollar in support of Ukraine. And many of the Euro dollars went to purchasing weapons and defense from the US.

Euro leaders are terrified by this. Europe, which is supposed to have global parity with the big players, was just as much (maybe even more) of a paper tiger as Russia. But unlike Russia they have a big friend who has lots of money and lots of weapons.

For the average European who has only ever know life under the protective wing of NATO (read: America), this is just Tuesday. For the versed European leader, who needs to ensure their country can be safe if America goes away, it's totally harrowing. Even more harrowing when your population doesn't understand the need for defense.

georgemcbay 3 hours ago||
> America [...] needs to make friends with all of its former allies. And it needs to import PhD students.

America, in the form of the Trump administration and a Trump-subservient Congress, just spent the last year completely destroying trust on these issues and it would take decades of sustained effort to rebuild it.

paulsutter 3 hours ago||
[flagged]
rapind 3 hours ago||
There is a valid both sides argument to a lot of these issues IMO, but where the discussion ought to be is at how extreme “one” side has taken it.

Whether it’s executive orders, corruption, pardons, appointments, obstruction, gerrymandering. pedophilia, lying, etc. I don’t think there’s a valid defence of just how far one particular side has gone (and proactively I might add).

testdelacc1 3 hours ago|||
Why is there always a both sides-er in these discussions?

FWIW, one party generally deferred to nonpartisan commissions to draw boundaries to avoid gerrymandering. So one “side” did far more than propose a solution, they did the right thing even when the other side wasn’t.

Gerrymandering is the worst example to pick when you’re pushing both-sides-bad.

paulsutter 2 hours ago||
Great! So please explain what algorithms are used by these "nonpartisan" commissions?
testdelacc1 1 hour ago|||
I’ll reply in good faith even though I detect sarcasm in your comment.

Generally nonpartisan commissions prioritise contiguity and compactness. There is an element of “I know it when I see it” because you’re trying to avoid both packing (packing minority voters from disparate areas into one) and cracking (distributing a minority district like Salt Like City into its 4 neighbouring districts, ensuring the city can’t vote for … whoever cities generally vote for).

So there is a human element involved, but these commissions generally do a reasonable job. You know how we know? States that move from nonpartisan to partisan commissions cause a dramatic change in the results of the next election. If the nonpartisan was biased like you imply with your air quotes, we wouldn’t observe that effect.

Also there are algorithms to draw fair districts without needing human judgement. See this paper[1] that expounds on one such algorithm.

1 - Swamy, R., King, D. M., & Jacobson, S. H. (2022). Multiobjective optimization for politically fair districting: A scalable multilevel approach. Operations Research, 71(2), 536–562. https://doi.org/10.1287/opre.2022.2311

unselect5917 2 hours ago|||
They're not.
TimorousBestie 3 hours ago|||
> yet neither "side" makes any proposal for an apolitical fair approach for redistricting...

Last week there was mention here of a proposal to fix the apportionment of House seats so that they are not capped at 435.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47332108

This proposal would make gerrymandering much harder.

catlover76 3 hours ago||
[dead]
throwawa1 3 hours ago||
Its been unreliable my entire life. Every year the economy gets better but life gets worse. You can't even recognize the country any more.
CalRobert 3 hours ago||
The economy can get better while life gets worse for most people. After all, an economy where 95% of the work was done by enslaved people might produce amazing profits and a very high GDP....
lokar 3 hours ago|||
The use of GDP, or GDP/Population as the primary metric is a real problem.

We need to use a metric that is closer to "total economic benefit for the median person", that would include income, as well as government services.

cess11 2 hours ago||
The Gini coefficient and sometimes its' velocity would be a better alternative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

Joel_Mckay 3 hours ago|||
GDP is a measure of economic activity, and goes up when people are forced to rebuild after natural disasters etc.

%Debt to GDP excluding military pay and allowances indicates how your grandchildren will live. Above >130% they will be poor, and remain poor indefinitely. You may disagree, but it is not like anyone wants this to happen.

The economic conservatives were compromised, and went insane =3

CalRobert 1 hour ago||
I wish it were easier to measure well-being. Someone who works 20 hours a week and half has as much money may well be enjoying life more than someone working 40 hours a week, but we don't quantify this well.

When I lived in California I was always weirded out by colleagues talking about how they never took vacations. It's like bragging about being poor.

Joel_Mckay 1 hour ago||
Generally, there is a fundamental philosophical difference between currency and wealth. In silicon valley, a middle class life is well over >$180k/yr, as Rent-seeking economics is unsustainable.

Rule #23: Don't compete to be at the bottom, as you just might actually win.

Have a glorious day =3

The ikigai chart helps some highlight better options:

https://hyperisland.com/en/blog/thought-leadership/feeling-d...

kenjackson 3 hours ago|||
It may be unreliable to you. I see the life of most people around me getting better. Even people that are somewhat poor (not dirt poor, but free lunch poor) have homes, three squares and snacks, PS5, mobile phones with cellular data, and cable tv. The biggest life issues I see are usually strongly related to substance abuse and mental health.

Transplanting to even just the 80s would be a culture shock for most people.

hackable_sand 42 minutes ago|||
Still waiting on your evidence for peoples' lives getting better
HEmanZ 2 hours ago|||
There is huge variation in what the US trend looks like from the ground that varies by region, age, income level, industry, and demographic.

EI think if you’re a professional class baby boomer the trajectory has looked fantastic through your life.

If you’re a 35 middle income living on the coasts (where at least 100 million Americans live) you may have watched affordability collapse and QOL decease significantly over the last decade.

pyronite 3 hours ago|||
A subjective sample of yourself isn’t representative of the overall economy or the way an economy should be run.
mattmaroon 3 hours ago|||
I honestly think that the idea that this is what’s happening is almost entirely propaganda.

I think people have an overly rosy view of the past and an overly negative view of the present. What has changed more than anything is we all have the 24/7 instantaneous news cycle, and algorithmic propaganda delivery.

Every election year zillion of dollars get spent convincing you the country went to hell in a handbasket because of the other party.

Which is not to say there are not issues, or even some new ones, but I don’t think the present is significantly worse than the past in many ways, and it is significantly better in several

righthand 2 hours ago||
This is overly optimistic and a "it hasn't happened to me yet so who cares" view. World War 3 has started and DHS is killing Americans and rounding up people in the street because one side was able to convince the country that the only thing to do was destroy and hurt a lot of people including themselves. That's not better than my past and it is significantly worse in a lot of ways. I haven't even received a cost of living increase in my salary in the last 5 years, let alone watch things and places I enjoy in life be dismantled so someone can make money off the attainment of bread.
mattmaroon 2 hours ago||
We were speaking about economics. But I’m sorry anybody who thinks World War III has started has had their brain warped by propaganda even worse. You probably didn’t mean to illustrate my point but you did perfectly.

World wars happened when large numbers of countries had mutual aid agreements that were triggered. Those largely don’t exist anymore outside of NATO. See how literally nobody is putting troops on the ground to defend Iran, Ukraine, Gaza, Lebanon, etc. If world war war risk existed, the nukes would already be flying and we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

The propaganda I’m talking about is very clear in your comment, you can’t just say some things suck, and there are things you don’t like, it has to be the most extreme version. We can’t just be involved in a couple wars we shouldn’t, it has to be World War III. Trump can’t just be a terrible president. He has to be Hitler. The DHS has killed three people, which is terrible, but it’s pretty far from the gestapo. That extremeism is exactly what I’m talking about.

I’m sorry your income has not increased in the last five years, but that is not the average Americans experience. The plural of anecdote is not data.

righthand 13 minutes ago||
I will start by stating that none of the media landscape is referring to it as World War 3. That is a conclusion I made myself.

Further I think “the economy isn’t as bad as it could be so everything else that doesn’t directly affect me is propaganda and all the problems right now in the world are perfectly fine” is the ultimate propaganda. You’re essentially saying “shut up you’re still alive just be okay with the world state even if it’s not desireable”.

You are definitely a maroon. Especially in the way you are talking down and hand waving away my complaints and taking my brief list as the only things that I have an issue with.

Negitivefrags 3 hours ago||
I’m curious how you would respond to the arguments in this video.

https://youtu.be/9KJTWmRrneo?si=I9mvSPfDnhkckb9n

anonnon 2 hours ago||
This chart: https://www.longtermtrends.com/home-price-vs-inflation/

And Case-Shiller is based on price-per-square footage, so the argument that houses are bigger is moot.

Papazsazsa 3 hours ago|
[flagged]
tomrod 3 hours ago||
1900 to 2024 for the US.

For Iran, China, USSR, for example, you had to back in estimates from observable benchmark information uncontaminated by dictatorships. You didn't have to do that with the US.

The US standard has been to document and standardize approaches -- and identify when things are changed and why. This was not common across all economies. It does give us several similar streams, e.g several versions of unemployment.

xanthor 2 hours ago||
Can you address any of the points the commenter made instead of retreating into an ideological non sequitur?
tomrod 2 hours ago||
My comment was made prior to the parent's edit.Further, familiarity with the subject does not make an informed comment a non-sequitur. Happy reading.

[0] https://sites.pitt.edu/~tgrawski/papers/2001%20What%27s%20Ha...

[1] https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29349/w293...

[2] https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/epr/2...

[3] https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/245398/1/cesifo1_wp9...

[4] https://thedocs.worldbank.org/en/doc/350051528721174623-0050...

[5] https://www.ifo.de/DocDL/cesifo1_wp10630.pdf

[6] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5140733

[7] https://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/13/22/4620

[8] https://www.imf.org/en/publications/wp/issues/2022/06/03/mea...

[9] https://www.ifo.de/DocDL/cesifo1_wp10630.pdf

[10] https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w23323/w233...

[11] https://www.jstor.org/stable/26372649

[12] https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w15199/w151...

[13] https://www.economic-policy.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/S...

[14] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1273505

[15] https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/epr/2...

[16] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10439...

convolvatron 2 hours ago||
its a measurement process of a large and complicated system. some of the things you cite are actually signs that the system was actually kind of working. CPI is a basket of indicators, there is no way that's ever going to capture the whole picture.

the best we can ask for is apolitical appointees whose goal is to improve the process and transparency about how the data was collected, publication of the raw numbers, and publication of the methodology used to synthesize it.

my understanding that the appointment process has been corrupted, but do we know to what degree transparency has?

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