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Posted by andygcook 4 hours ago

US Job Market Visualizer(karpathy.ai)
298 points | 236 comments
ravenstine 18 minutes ago|
Wow, I had no idea the reason my peers and I can't find another position in less than 12 months is because the market for software developers is growing faster than average!
dbgrman 1 hour ago||
Cool stuff. would be nice to have a color blind mode. I literally can't distinguish the red from green in this visualization.
RomanPushkin 45 minutes ago||
Created a temp hack for you: https://gist.github.com/ro31337/89b24edaec0a5bfbf73bc5abfbfb...

(don't forget to "allow pasting" in [chrome] console first)

notlion 1 hour ago||
Came here to mention this. I'm also Red/Green colorblind.
grigio 30 minutes ago||
There is also +/- % in the boxes
holmesworcester 3 hours ago||
It's wild that there are as many jobs in the category "Top Executives" as in the category "Retail Sales Worker".

This makes sense given both automation and the US's role in the global economy, but it runs somewhat contrary to standard ideas of class and inequality.

titanomachy 1 hour ago||
That category has a median pay of $105,350, and includes "general and operations managers" as well as "chief executives". I assume it includes executives of very small enterprises.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/top-executives.htm

nitwit005 2 hours ago|||
I took one glance at the chart and decided the results were impossible because of that.

Apparently "top executive" median pay is $105,350 per year: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/top-executives.htm

SpicyLemonZest 1 hour ago|||
Sounds plausible? Even a company with 100 employees and few growth prospects is likely to have a couple of executives, and most companies are small.
next_xibalba 1 hour ago|||
Remember that exec tech salaries are extreme outliers. I worked for an exec in manufacturing. He had full p&l responsibility for a business segment with ~150 employees, $27 million in revenue at 40% gross margins, and a production plant. His total comp was ~$300k.

Now just think of the comp levels in sectors like government, education, etc.

nitwit005 40 minutes ago|||
The number of people in the category is simply impossible for any normal person's definition of "top executive".

If you click the link it mentions "general and operations managers". They're tossing a lot of different roles into the category.

Aurornis 46 minutes ago|||
> Remember that exec tech salaries are extreme outliers.

It's the combination of tech and big or fast growing companies.

People who operate in FAANG or Silicon Valley bubbles (or who spend too much time on Blind) can lose track of what salaries look like in the rest of the world.

I often share Buffer's open salary page because their compensation is actually pretty normal from all of the data I've seen and hiring I've done: https://buffer.com/salaries

Every time it gets posted there are comments from people aghast that the software engineers "only" make $200K and in disbelief that the CEO's salary is "only" $300K.

MeetingsBrowser 2 hours ago|||
> it runs somewhat contrary to standard ideas of class and inequality.

Can you elaborate?

seneca 25 minutes ago||
These categories are extremely broad. Top Executive includes general managers, legislators, school superintendents, mayors, city administrators, and a lot of other government jobs. The name is misleading, it's basically non-frontline management.

Chief Executives is actually a specific sub-category of it and is, obviously, much smaller.

visarga 3 hours ago||
If AI produces surplus where does it go? Not talking about investment backed datacenter buildout and AI labs. Talking about the results of AI work...

I think AI outcomes distribute to contexts where it is used, and produce a change in how we work, what work we take on. Competition takes care of taking those surpluses and investing them in new structure, which becomes load bearing and we can't do without it anymore.

In the end it looks like we are treading water, just like it was when computers got 1M times faster in a couple of decades, but we felt very little improvement in earnings or reduction in work.

Surplus becomes structure and the changed structure is something you can't function without. Like the cell and mitochondrion, after they merged they can't be apart, can't pay their costs individually anymore. Surplus is absorbed into the baseline cost.

lm28469 3 hours ago||
> If AI produces surplus where does it go? Not talking about investment backed datacenter buildout and AI labs. Talking about the results of AI work...

The 1% pockets, this is where the vast majority of the extra productivity computers/internet/automation brought goes to for the last 50 years: https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

matthest 30 minutes ago||
The study doesn't say it went into the 1%'s pockets. It says it went to 2 places:

1) The salaries of corporate employees 2) Shareholders and capital owners

Regarding number 2: "Shareholders" would include anyone who owns any stock at all, including a lot of middle class people with a simple S&P 500 ETF in their portfolio.

And the increase in productivity allowed more people to become capital owners, AKA entrepreneurs. The explosion in software entrepreneurs, for example.

lm28469 15 minutes ago||
Then why are wealth inequalities exploding? Why are we just about to witness the first trillionaire?

Because no matter what fairy tales you want to believe in your $20 "invested" in palantir won't make you a "shareholder" lmao

matthest 3 minutes ago||
Wealth inequality is increasing, but the wealth isn't all flowing into the 1%'s pockets.

Lots of middle class people have graduated into upper-middle class: https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/the-middle-clas...

Wealth inequality is still a problem. But it's not just the people at the very top benefitting.

skybrian 2 hours ago|||
For my personal projects, any time saved on programming gets used up writing more ambitious programs.

For a business, the question is whether you can make more money by doing more ambitious things.

ripvanwinkle 3 hours ago|||
The surplus goes to the owners of the capital. Labor has been losing to capital for sometime now
ivanjermakov 2 hours ago|||
It's up to business owners to decide. At the end of the day, in free market economy, goods become more affordable.

Agriculture is a good example of that: http://www.johnhearfield.com/History/Breadt.htm

yifanl 3 hours ago|||
If AI being a million billion zillion times more productive at doing bullshit jobs nets in very little economic gain, then that lays bare the net economic value of all our bullshit jobs.

But given that the stock market hasn't panicked, this must mean at least one of these premises is false:

1. Economic activity is relatively flat.

2. AI makes us a million billion zillion times more productive than we used to be.

3. The stock market is rooted in reality.

thewebguyd 2 hours ago|||
> lays bare the net economic value of all our bullshit jobs.

This was already obvious, the more important question is what are we (collectively, society & our governments) going to do about it?

We (should have) already known most of our jobs were bullshit jobs, especially white collar jobs. The difference is now we might have something coming that will eliminate the bullshit jobs.

But society will always need bullshit jobs or the whole system collapses. Not everyone can go dig ditches, so what do we do?

downrightmike 3 hours ago|||
the market split from reality in 2020 for the last time. This is all just zeroes and ones, which is why they can make the real economy tank.
adolph 2 hours ago|||
> In the end it looks like we are treading water, just like it was when computers got 1M times faster in a couple of decades, but we felt very little improvement in earnings or reduction in work.

I think this is a very important point. The hedonic treadmill means real gains are discounted. The novelty information cycle is like an Osborn Effect for improvements, like the semi-annual Popular Mechanic's flying car covers where there is an enticing future perpetually nearly here and at the same time disappointingly never materialized.

cucumber3732842 2 hours ago||
I think it's gonna mirror how the white collar classes, coastal elites, professional managerial class, whatever you want to call them, sold the countries industrial base to the far east. They got a little bit of money out of it but the biggest gains were the material wealth. $1 widgets instead of $2 widgets. All the people who weren't hurt by it got to live with more material plenty. Of course the nominal values of things didn't go down, but that's just inflation which is somewhat separate of an effect.

This time the jobs most in the crosshairs of AI are the jobs that constituted the paper pushing overhead of modern society, all the paper pushing jobs. Instead of $1 widgets from China replacing $2 domestic widgets it's gonna be $1 AI services replacing $2 services that require a real human.

This is hard to reason about because people tend to consume these kinds of services in big multi hundred or multi thousand dollar increments but in practice what it means is that when you have to engage an accountant, engineer, having something planned out in accordance with some standard, that will be substantially cheaper because of the reduced professional labor component.

And of course, as usual, the string pulling and in investor class will get fabulously wealthy along the way.

treyfitty 3 hours ago||
Data is coming from BLS. Their data lags the true state of affairs, and their growth projections are never reliable. Remember when they touted from 2000-2010 that Actuaries are the hottest growing field with the best forward looking outlook?

BLS forward looking guidance means nothing when technology revolutionizes the nature of work.

CGMthrowaway 1 hour ago||
What do you believe is the true state of affairs?
elictronic 1 hour ago||
With poor data it’s whatever you say it is.
emp17344 1 hour ago||
How convenient!
exhumet 1 hour ago|||
lol i always wondered how actuary ever crossed the radar of my partner in college and this must have been it. hey they just finished up their FCAS cert and they are riding quite high and quite comfy. but it is for sure a very small pool of people just due to the immense work needed to get that point.
the_arun 1 hour ago|||
Are we assuming - the data is of high quality? If quality isn't good, it is as good as synthetic data.
just_once 2 hours ago|||
It wasn't even that long ago that Trump fired the BLS Commissioner and nominated someone that would "restore GREATNESS" to the BLS.

Putting aside the slop facade place atop the data....why would we trust the data?

c0d3rPrimate 2 hours ago||
[dead]
coldcity_again 3 hours ago||
>Software Developers +15%

Yay!

>Computer Programmers: -6%

Oh no

Kerrick 3 hours ago||
Software Developers median pay according to BLS: $131,450 per year

(Source: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...)

Computer Programmers median pay according to BLS: $98,670 per year

(Source: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...)

Software developers typically do the following:

- Analyze users’ needs and then design and develop software to meet those needs Recommend software upgrades for customers’ existing programs and systems Design each piece of an application or system and plan how the pieces will work together

- Create a variety of models and diagrams showing programmers the software code needed for an application

- Ensure that a program continues to function normally through software maintenance and testing

- Document every aspect of an application or system as a reference for future maintenance and upgrades

(Source: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...)

Computer programmers typically do the following:

- Write programs in a variety of computer languages, such as C++ and Java

- Update and expand existing programs

- Test programs for errors and fix the faulty lines of computer code

- Create, modify, and test code or scripts in software that simplifies development

(Source: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...)

marcosdumay 3 hours ago||
Still look the same to me.
lesuorac 2 hours ago|||
Ignoring the sentence that admits they can be the same ("Programmers work closely with software developers, and in some businesses their duties overlap.").

Programmers is like a translator; somebody else came up with what to do and you're doing the mechanical work of converting words into C++.

Developer involves coming up with what to do.

Hence programmers is a lower paid position.

Teever 3 minutes ago||
Your interpretation seems like apophenia to me.

There's no functional difference between a 'software developer' and a 'programmer'. they're just synonyms that sometime pay differently.

shimman 2 hours ago|||
May look the same as a worker but if you're a corporation hiring an H1B worker the difference between computer programmer and software developer is a notable difference in the budget bylines.
feceseater 2 hours ago|||
Right, I'm a Computer Programmer but any job with that title is likely horrible. But having the title Software Engineer doesn't magically make me an engineer. All word games.
ripvanwinkle 3 hours ago|||
I was wondering about that too. It shows 1.9M Software Developer Jobs and 122K Computer Programmer jobs.

Reason for hope

n00bskoolbus 3 hours ago|||
I'd chalk that up to a change in terminology over time, I could be wrong there though
9rx 2 hours ago||
The BLS classifies them as different roles. In essence: Software developers plan, computer programmers implement. Which in many cases might be the same person, but it has always been true that one person can hold multiple jobs.
bilbo0s 3 hours ago||
I don't know?

They're saying that programmers will be declining. While Developers, and crucially, Testers and QA people will be increasing. That testers and QA become more important in the future sounds plausible to me in a future hypothetical world of ubiquitous AI.

All of that doesn't necessarily imply that the Developer class of employees will grow at the same rate as the Tester and QA classes of employees.

nsvd2 3 hours ago||
Interestingly, it seems from these statistics the median wage for individuals with a Master's is lower than a Bachelor's. I wonder if that's because of immigrants who pursue higher education for visa reasons skewing the data.
post-it 3 hours ago||
Anecdotally, many people get a bachelor's degree to check a box for job applications, whereas many people get a master's degree because they love the field and/or are afraid to leave school.

My friends and I who have a bachelor's degree in CS make more money than my friends who have or are working towards master's degrees in CS, because the former are working in the private sector and the latter are in academia making peanuts.

lotsofpulp 3 hours ago|||
Other possible reason could be many or most Masters degrees not conferring additional pricing power, and those people’s Bachelors degrees also confer lower pricing power.

Edit: Another possible reason that Masters degrees were less common in the past, so the Bachelors pay statistics skew towards people with more work experience in their higher earning years, whereas the Masters pay statistics skew towards younger people with less work experience.

mothballed 2 hours ago||
Masters seems to be a common theme in a few lower paying expansive fields like social work and education. I don't think that someone with a masters is typically making less in the same field all else equal.
jvanderbot 2 hours ago||
My takeaway here: 3.XT $ of US salaries are the TAM for AI companies.

Apple, a very successful company, makes 300B/y revenue? (ish)

~10% is all you need to be Apple.

And, it can work by taking all of 10% of the jobs and collecting the whole salary (the AI employee -- dubious proposition),

or by taking 10% of everyone's salary and automating part of everyone's job (the AI "tool" -- much more plausible).

If "part" being automated is >10%, we all win in the long run, every company gets productivity growth without cost growth, etc etc.

If you add in data center costs, and multiple competing AI companies, and then expand the TAM to all white collar work worldwide, you can make everyone successful beyond their wildest dreams with a "20% of work for 20% of the cost" model. Again, how you distribute that 20% remains to be seen (20% new unemployment, or new 0% unemployment with "tools".

I formalized my thoughts here: https://jodavaho.io/posts/ai-jobpocolypse.html

w10-1 2 hours ago||
The replace-work TAM is overstated because it fails to address transaction costs, which are astronomical when refactoring work and dislodging stakeholders with sunk costs. Coding is now the leading app for AI now because it had already been factored to support division of labor, outsourcing, and remote work.

It's also understated, because the real value of AI is not in replacing work, but making new products possible either because it's finally cheap enough to make them, or because -- AI.

dzonga 27 minutes ago|||
very apt analogy - same as your other one LLMs are similar to CNC machines.

Given the state of AI (LLMs) - they still need a very human (skilled driver) to operate

ForHackernews 2 hours ago|||
Your math is missing the fact that Apple products are differentiated from their competitors. If AI becomes a ubiquitous commodity, it's not worth 300B/y.

Potable water is far more important than AI or iPads ever will be, but the world's most valuable water company only does about 5B/year in revenue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Water_Works

UncleMeat 2 hours ago|||
The bosses already hate their workers and are mad that they have to pay them a cent. Would they really accept paying another 10% on their wages to make their workers 10% more productive? When there is significant active competition between the providers of core models and huge pressure to reduce prices?
jjtheblunt 2 hours ago||
"TAM" = ?
ForHackernews 2 hours ago|||
Total addressable market.

Frequently seen as a big fun number in pitch decks. "The TAM for our new Coca-Cola killer is $1.6T: all humans who imbibe liquids on a regular basis. You simply MUST invest."

ianm218 2 hours ago||||
Total addressable market
istjohn 2 hours ago||||
Total addressable market
zkmon 3 hours ago||
Mouse hover seems to be critical for this visualization. Not much useful in mobile.
kklisura 3 hours ago|
Rendered via canvas. Ugh.
jameslk 2 hours ago|
> You are an expert analyst evaluating how exposed different occupations are to AI. You will be given a detailed description of an occupation from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

> Rate the occupation's overall AI Exposure on a scale from 0 to 10.

Are LLMs good at scoring? In my experience, using an LLM for scoring things usually produces arbitrary results. I'm surprised to see Karpathy employ it

Imnimo 1 hour ago||
The fact that the LLM appears to never assign an actual 0 or 10 makes me suspicious. Especially when the prompt includes explicit examples of what counts as a 10.
ranyume 1 hour ago|||
No. LLMs aren't experts in subjects. They can answer things in a confident manner, but nobody optimized LLMs to perform good analysis yet.
bwestergard 1 hour ago||
Let's ask the LLM to score how good it would be at scoring jobs from LLM exposure... /s
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