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Posted by lukestevens 6 hours ago

We Have Learned Nothing(colossus.com)
58 points | 40 comments
tlb 1 hour ago|
The fact that the survival rate of startups hasn't improved doesn't show that our knowledge hasn't improved. Startups are competitive, with only 1 or 2 VC-scale winners per market. So, the claim is like "race car technology hasn't gotten better, because there's still only one winner per race."
spacecadet 35 minutes ago|
Racing competition is flattened through regulation(oversimplified). All drivers have the same car. Drivers skill and fearlessness is the deciding factor.

I came here to basically say this about running a company- but your comment was a better launching point.

As someone who has run several companies over the last 25 years and has read and or tried nearly ever "method" mentioned... Im now running a company where Im abandoning everything and just going at with skill and fearlessness... and no funding. It feels freeing, and we are growing.

keiferski 1 hour ago||
The fundamental premise seems wrong to me. Entrepreneurship is not a science. It is closer to a craft or an art, but even then, the inclusion of market dynamics and competition means that there is never a static “winner” in the same way that a craft like carpentry can have multiple masters.

Marketing is especially the key element here, and there is and never will be a permanent science of effective marketing. Culture is always changing and what gets attention today is blasé tomorrow.

temp8830 4 hours ago||
The Lean Startup methodology is likely applicable only within a very narrow niche: a newly discovered green field with plenty of low-hanging fruit. Web apps in the late 90s and 2000s. Mobile apps after that. Agent integrations now. These are areas where the barrier to entry is low, problems are plenty, and there's space for a thousand flowers to bloom.

In contrast, for a company that can't be started by a single app developer - getting out of the building won't help. Nobody in the space worth talking to will talk to you, for starters.

apsurd 1 hour ago||
This is defeatist.

What do I know, I don't run a billion dollar startup. But there's a valuable "necessary but not sufficient" insight to all good advice. The lean startup IS good advice. The best I can do with your argument is "getting out of the building is no longer sufficient".

Sure. But it doesn't make the entire arch of how we got here "wrong". And yes, all companies were started with a few people, a few customers. So that's why there's nothing much here to see for me, other than defeatist sentiment.

dminik 58 minutes ago|||
It may be defeatist, but it is correct.

Seriously, how do you even realistically approach taking on ASML. They spent decades and billions of (investment) dollars to do insane moonshot research and it paid off. But it also closed off the door behind them.

Entire countries (Russia, China, ...) have been trying to reproduce it. They have not succeeded yet.

aboardRat4 15 minutes ago|||
>They have not succeeded yet.

Reproducing an ASML machine is a piece of cake. Okay, not a piece of cake but definitely doable. The problem is that you cannot sell your reproduction in rich countries because the US government will threaten you with sanctions and US companies will screech "patents!".

liotier 3 minutes ago||
> Reproducing an ASML machine is a piece of cake. Okay, not a piece of cake but definitely doable. The problem is that you cannot sell your reproduction in rich countries because the US government will threaten you with sanctions and US companies will screech "patents!".

... An argument that may not convince China and Russia, who have a track record of ignoring it - I doubt it is a significant reason why they have not achieved semiconductor manufacture tooling parity.

apsurd 50 minutes ago|||
why does one need to take on ASML? I had to look it up, semiconductors.

ASML market cap is ~500B. Meta market cap is ~1.5T.

i'm no facebook fan but it was started by a dude in a dorm room.

So I think saying "well those times are gone now" is defeatist.

(fwiw i personally have no interest in building a trillion dollar company from my basement, just talking philosophy here)

dminik 42 minutes ago||
If we're going to be like that, we should go for Nvidia. Their market cap is currently ~4T.

I can see that going very well.

apsurd 33 minutes ago||
I'm genuinely asking why are we goaling on overtaking the most valuable companies in human history?

Startup advice, as i understand it, is about innovation: expanding the pie. I sound like a VC shill. Don't mean to be, i know it's riddled with rich people passing money around pretending like value is being created.

It's just I don't get what's so wrong with the HN crowd here trying to be better at building a successful company?

aboardRat4 18 minutes ago||
>I'm genuinely asking why are we goaling on overtaking the most valuable companies in human history?

The most valuable companies are expected to be the largest, and, as a result, the most inefficient hence the easiest to overtake.

throwaway27448 1 hour ago|||
Hey there's always communism to aim for when y'all fail to improve society
apsurd 1 hour ago||
It makes sense to me to try to be good at Capitalism. You're right, it may be a fool's errand, but what's the alternative?

FWIW, can't believe I'm replying to literally "throwaway random number" but Capitalism isn't my cup of tea. I rode around on a bicycle for the last decade.

But it's what we've got.

loeber 2 hours ago|||
Interestingly, this suggests that the Lean Startup methodology is basically a suboptimal strategy that produces acceptable outcomes only in the most fruitful circumstances. You can start a Lean Startup that makes a little bit of money, but if you'd really bet big and put your back into it, you would've done 1000x better.
jakewins 2 hours ago|||
Fooled by Randomness talks a good bit about this, and argues it’s true - except you don’t know what to bet on. Hence the outlier successes will be from extreme risk takers, and for each such person there will be 1,000s of other gamblers that bet on the wrong thing.

Taleb does the math as well IIRC, assuming there are x hundred thousand extreme risk takers, and outlier “correct bets” are y% chance, then you will have a surprisingly high number of people with a long series of “correct” bets behind them looking like business geniuses, from pure chance & basic statistics.

saghm 1 hour ago|||
In other words, lean startups a concept were itself a lean startup, where the strategy was good enough when the circumstances were fruitful but now is supplanted by other strategies that do it better. The turtles all the way down were leaning so far that they fell over.
lumost 3 hours ago|||
It also forces you to focus on some extremely narrow problem definition. Often, these narrow problem definitions turn out to be features of existing platforms or in the ai age - artifacts of the current model generation.
antonvs 3 hours ago||
> Nobody in the space worth talking to will talk to you, for starters.

There’s a skill issue there. I know a founder who’s able to get people to talk to him. As a result, his startup had F500 customers almost from the beginning.

But that’s the kind of thing that no amount of documented strategy and tactics is ever doing to be able to teach. I’ve watched it happening, but I can’t do it.

baxtr 3 hours ago||
> The New Pundits have been around long enough, and are widely known enough, that their relevant books have collectively sold millions of copies and are taught in virtually all university entrepreneurship courses.[4] If they worked, it would show up in the statistics. Instead, there has been zero systematic progress over the past 30 years in making startups more likely to survive.

For me, this is where it breaks. There are two assumptions that the author must be challenged on.

1. Enough people know about these methods

2. Of those people enough use the methods properly

Judging from my own experience I can’t confirm neither of these. Even those people that know the approach rarely have the rigor to treat startups as a series of experiments. Ego plays a large part.

AdamN 1 hour ago||
These startup techniques were never meant to guarantee success - they were just meant to be techniques to use to more quickly and cheaply get you to the point where you can understand if the hypothesis is correct in the market (and to then make that evaluation more correctly).
strken 1 hour ago||
I mean, there's also 3: once everyone knows something then they're all fighting with the same sword.
pinkmuffinere 2 hours ago||
If you believe that an achievement involves skill, and that people can hone than skill, then I think you should believe the people who have done it know on average good advice about how to do it. You don't have to accept the premise, you may believe that many people simply got lucky, and no skill is involved. I think most of us do believe that skill is involved in starting a business, so let's just assume it is. I think this implies that successful and well-intentioned business-starters should on average be able to give good advice. Not that they all will give correct advice every time, or that their advised approach will be correct for you every time. But that they on average "know something". My impression is that they largely agree with the method put forward in the lean startup. I haven't read all these other book tfa is dissing, but I think it's basically arguing a very difficult view. Why should I believe this random guy when the people that have done it many times are telling me he's wrong?
btilly 1 hour ago||
Point missed. All of the reasons why you say this article should be dismissed, are irrelevant to the article's actual argument.

Here is the key principle.

Suppose that your odds of startup success are dominated by competition with other would-be startup founders. For example you compete for funding, good ideas, competent employees, and markets. If so, then the odds of success are set by the dynamics of that competition. In which case widespread access to effective advice on running startups does not improve the odds for a random founder succeeding. They just raise the quality of competition.

Think of it as being like a boxing tournament. If you learn how to box better, your odds of winning the tournament go up. If others learn to box better, your odds of winning the tournament go down. And even if everybody learns how to box better, we see the exact same number of winners.

Whether or not startups actually work this way is an empirical question. Based on a bunch of different data points, he argues that startups really do seem to work this way. And so the spread of good advice on running startups can't improve the odds of a random startup succeeding.

gzread 38 minutes ago||
In which case if you are a successful startup founder who wants to be even more successful, you should give bad advice to your future competitors
techpression 2 hours ago||
Survivorship bias. For every success you describe there are nine or so failures. Skill being involved doesn’t exclude being lucky, and I believe being lucky (some people call it timing) is of utmost importance.
pinkmuffinere 2 hours ago|||
Ya, I respect this view. It is not the view I have, but I understand how you can have it. Eg, this is how I feel about most famous portfolio managers. Really my comment is addressed to the other view -- if it _isn't_ luck, then I think we should put some weight in what the successful practitioners say, and the ones I've heard do endorse the lean startup & co.
apsurd 1 hour ago|||
But it doesn't make the survivors wrong about their experience. Two truths: their experience did happen roughly how they said it happened + they got very lucky.

Seems like all the other 9 that died insist on telling the one that survived that they were somehow wrong.

For sure, I do get that one can "do everything right" and still fail, I get that point, I get that there is no formula. But it seems like people want the reverse to be true: that everyone successful is only a lucky buffoon.

techpression 1 hour ago||
Sure, but I like it to my military service, I remember the good parts only, unless I start digging. Nobody wants to read about normal life, either you claim success or you claim failure, in between sells no copies.
danieltanfh95 34 minutes ago||
Maybe the more rational conclusion is that it is purely a random chance that a startup would succeed, so we should just increase the amount of startups in the first place instead of restricting it.
neom 4 hours ago||
Methods improved the baseline, but also increased competition, keeping outcomes flat. Totally underweights systems and then blasts into methods not working. “Just do something different” is not a strategy... In fact, many great businesses look conventional early, and only later reveal their advantage.

I don't think this article is very good, at all.

pwatsonwailes 1 hour ago||
A product being good enough isn't enough. At some point you also need to price it, and communicate it's existence persuasively to the market and win market share, and it has to be distributed effectively.

Most businesses fail because they solve for the easier bit (product) and then have no idea about the rest.

RGamma 1 hour ago|
"Solving for product" is VC pidgin speak. Much contemporary software hardly solves anything anymore; it's getting shittier every iteration without fundamental progress in the field as everything turns into yet another dumbed down web-based abomination that robs us of more of our sanity (exceptions excepted!). There are good explanations for this, but I still don't like it.
gzread 37 minutes ago||
The better product is the one customers choose to buy. If products are getting shitty it's because customers want shitty.
RGamma 31 minutes ago|||
Yes, and customers are less informed than ever. RMS's "useds" (instead of users) comes to mind often in recent years. To clarify, I don't think one should considers it solely the user's fault, because user pedagogy is a shared responsibility, that needs to be offered and taken.
aboardRat4 14 minutes ago|||
>The better product is the one customers choose to buy.

Heroin addicts want to buy heroin.

wellsales_47 37 minutes ago|
nice execution. the demo video sold me more than the text
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