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Posted by freddykruger 1 day ago

Delve – Fake Compliance as a Service(deepdelver.substack.com)
315 points | 106 comments
chromatin 24 minutes ago|
> Delve was founded in 2023 by Karun Kaushik and Selin Kocalar, both Forbes 30 Under 30 members and MIT dropouts who met as freshmen.

Forbes 30 under 30 remains undefeated

bob1029 4 minutes ago||
Compliance isn't that hard once you stop looking for shortcuts and start spending time doing it correctly.

AWS is probably the best actual CaaS vendor out there. They have a product offering expressly designed to help their customers get through this jungle:

https://docs.aws.amazon.com/artifact/latest/ug/what-is-aws-a...

You are still responsible for everything on top of what AWS provides (software/configuration/policy), but their compliance package handles a massive portion of what you would otherwise have to do if you were on-prem. Physical security, hardware management, disaster recovery, et. al., you get essentially "for free".

fareesh 41 minutes ago||
A lot of startups move fast with a small team.

You build something great and big corporation X wants to buy a subscription but you need to be certified.

Much of this is a good checklist but some of it is very european.

"Where is the risk register to track controls in your 7 person company?"

Now instead of doing what your team does best, you are doing paperwork theater for frameworks designed for a 100,000 employee enterprise.

You are documenting things nobody will read, making up processes that don't exist and translating the operations of a lean company into bureaucratic language.

What's needed is a variant of these standards for small teams, which is proportionate and pragmatic.

bradfox2 2 minutes ago||
This is as designed to gatekeep these customers. Those in control of the checklists stand to benefit.
IgorPartola 17 minutes ago|||
Exactly this. But my question here is also: is there not a competitive advantage to a big enterprise that applies standards in a more intelligent way? You have a SaaS, I have a Fortune 500 company that could use your product but I cannot use it because my procurement process is as long and winding ad the Road to Hana. In the meantime my competitor has a smarter procurement process that takes into account the impact and risk involved in renting your software. Don’t they get a competitive advantage over me by having a better process and as a result getting better vendors?
mushufasa 6 minutes ago||
Unfortunately in most cases the buyers have way more liability/risk using a small vendor than opportunity. Often this is coming from regulators in certain industries.

In scenarios where the company REALLY REALLY wants to buy the SaaS, they often will invest in the company, one of the reasons for which being to ensure they have the resources to go through all the red tape.

phyzix5761 18 minutes ago|||
What is the purpose of a business though? To make profits for its owners. If the profit lies in doing all this corporate theater then that's the business. A company that focuses only on providing a service and product but ignores how their customer needs to use said service and product is going to go out of business.
bartman 16 minutes ago|||
I’ve found CIS Controls v8.1 to be good and sane, with actual benefits to security. Level 1 is a solid base, and Level 2 is good for picking from depending on where risks exist in your business.

CIS Benchmarks are worth a look too: They’re best practices for securing typical cloud platforms, SaaS and OS.

ljm 19 minutes ago||
Maybe you suouldn't be hacking due diligence if your team isn't ready for it
hintymad 1 hour ago||
Question: how likely is it that a number of 20-year olds have the passion of solving the problem of compliance auditing? I can hardly imagine that I'd even be interested in taking a look at the domain. It's just... so mundane. Or maybe the alpha-type overachievers don't care about the domain but the opportunity?
wmf 1 hour ago||
Solving boring problems has been conventional startup wisdom for a long time. And a "mundane" startup might be more interesting than traditional high-paying jobs like finance/law/consulting. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2007/12/06/where-theres-muck-...
hardwaregeek 11 minutes ago|||
I wonder if it's almost like a new version of management consulting. You hire/invest in a bunch of smart 20-somethings who seem generally intelligent with the idea that they'll "disrupt" an industry with their from-first principles approach. Do the 23 year old McKinsey consultants particularly care about their work? No, but the McKinsey name is a fast way to gain clout and access to executives. Ditto the YC name
busseio 1 hour ago||
I work for a firm that develops custom software in regulated industries, and we have brilliant software & data engineers in their 20's working on compliance auditing, and more specifically "Compliance Management System health monitoring."

We've be able to use a lot of AI-assisted engineering and AI in the software to solve longstanding business challenges in this space.

I won't make assumptions about where you're located, but on the East Coast US it is big business among banks, utilities, healthcare, etc.

suriya-ganesh 1 hour ago||
I've gone through this process and is this not a failure from the institute that are giving away these certifications for a fee without any due diligence?

intermediaries like delve have only amplified this failure.

it was obvious to anyone who was involved in this industry that, all of this is just security theatre with nothing really to back it up.

love2read 20 minutes ago||
Interesting that the author (and "the others in his network") seem to only be concerned about the complete illegitimacy of their certs when they were already exposed and now they want to stand up and say they are the good guys for "exposing" Delve.
stringtoint 1 hour ago||
Love the depth of this post.

We were actually looking at it as well recently (we're using Drata). I was thinking "Cool, this looks like the next cool step forward". The claims didn't sound out of the world in my ears.

Every time an issue like this appears I wonder how many more undiscovered frauds are out there.

halamadrid 17 hours ago||
This was such as interesting read, but I found this link via LinkedIn rather than hackernews.

I would have expected this to be somewhere at the top right now given how deep the article digs and evidence seems legit.

sebmellen 15 hours ago|
I think it may be getting (intentionally?) suppressed from the homepage. Given this is a YCombinator website, I wouldn't rule that out.

Regardless, it's been an ongoing issue. I know a few involved companies — it takes basically 5 days to get a SOC 2 Type 2 report through Delve. And, of course, they market this way too: "SOC 2 in days". Unbelievable.

dang 2 hours ago|||
In case anyone hasn't seen my other posts about this:

(1) I had no idea this story existed and woke up to claims that I was obviously* suppressing it.

(2) I looked into it and found that no moderator had touched either of the two submissions of the story, but that both submissions had set off HN's voting ring detector. (Whether there was a voting ring or not, I don't know - that software isn't perfect. It has held up well over the years though.)

(3) We merged the two discussions and placed the merged thread on the front page.

(4) Why? Because we moderate HN less, not more, when YC or a YC startup is part of a story: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu.... This is literally the #1 principle of moderation in the sense that it was the very first thing that pg drilled into me: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....

* https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/11/18/know-trouble/

muglug 3 minutes ago||
TIL that voting ring detection exists
andrewflnr 2 hours ago||||
I see the submission time as an hour ago, so it actually looks like it got a second-chanced, i.e. boosted by the site admins.
dang 1 hour ago||
That's correct - you can see from https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=freddykruger that this post was actually submitted 23 hours ago. The timestamp at the top of the thread is relativized to fit the second-chance pool (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).
browningstreet 5 hours ago||||
It's a trending story on X. Was surprised there was no meaty discussion here on HN.
instalabsai 12 hours ago||||
Surprised/not surprised that this is getting buried from the homepage
dang 1 hour ago|||
It got downweighted by HN's voting ring detector. Mods didn't touch it, except to place the story on the frontpage once we knew it existed.
sebmellen 12 hours ago|||
I just got blocked by another YC founder (and potential investor in Delve?) for refuting his handwavey argument that "all compliance companies do this" [0] — this is beyond just marketing, it is active and blatant/intentional fraud. I don't see how it can be defended. But in that sense it is a major crisis for anyone who invested in the company.

[0]: https://x.com/kobyjconrad/status/2034843865396506864

egorfine 1 hour ago||
Compliance is something that no one ever wants and everybody hates. Not a single founder wakes up in the morning thinking to themselves: "oh I wish I could make my company XYZ-123 compliant!"

Thus providing compliance is really just paying someone to shift responsibility.

The regulator can ask whether you are compliant. You can present certificate from Delve or someone else and that's the end of it.

bedatadriven 1 hour ago||
I don't want to work wherever you do your thing. Software as a service means you provide a service, and you should take your responsibility to protect your customer's data super seriously. Compliance frameworks are one useful tool among many to support this effort. It helps us identify gaps, identify risks, make improvements. It also give us a way to communicate what we do to our partners. The behavior described in the medium post is fraud, pure and simple.

I am a founder, and my ambition includes meeting the highest possible standards for my customers.

Muromec 1 hour ago|||
Not a single person wakes up in the morning thinking they wish to pay taxes and rent and do the laundry the other stuff that has to be done. I would be nice to smoke weed and play video games all day and order the deliveries.

Some things just have to be done.

egorfine 1 hour ago||
> thinking they wish to pay taxes

Wellll this is not always the case. I have moved from a shithole country to a nice one and oh boy I am crying in gratitude every month that I pay taxes. Because it is every day that I can see my money working for me in the environment.

But your point stands.

Muromec 1 hour ago|||
As a person who moved to a high-tax country I understand the sentiment. It's usually lost on the people who were always there paying those taxes. Somehow it often doesn't click that they get something in return.

The same applies to all the audit and bureaucracy stuff. Does it do something? If you don't feel it does, does it mean it's not? I don't know really, but I hope somebody is rotating their key material as they provided in their security posture.

kakacik 1 hour ago|||
There are well-used tax money, then there are stupidly burned tax money on ie buying favors of some part of population before elections, financing blindly without any checks social security programs that get abused to no end, or simply plain old corruption.

I love bringing Switzerland up to annoy most of western/northern Europeans since their success is so obvious and undeniable while going in very different direction than most of Europe. Low to low-medium taxes, yet state budgets are frequently in positive numbers, there is no end to money spend on infra projects, train infra, but also rather strong social programs (just not ridiculously bad as mentioned above), top notch free healthcare and education. VAT taxes are 2-8% instead of 20-23% in all countries around. Country simply works(TM) because population is not hard comfort-zone-addicted and entitled bunch of spoiled whiny kids, they work relatively hard and it brings results, consistently and long term. They don't work more than americans nor asians, but thats enough for their prosperity.

Do you think lets say a heavy tax burden in say Italy, or even France (not even going more into southern or eastern EU since that would be a small book) is really used well and efficiently? I visit those places frequently and it certainly doesn't seem that way. Random examples - Italy has garbage everywhere, people drive to highway stops to drop it there (so the wind blows it all around). Infrastructure seems like from 80s, with added age. From people dealing with bureaucracy there - its stuck in 19th century, direct approach will get you often nowhere. France - most communist state in western Europe, heck in all Europe, sans Belarus maybe. Yet if you talk to people, they are constantly pissed off at government, never happy with society or state they live in. I don't blame them, listening to French colleagues complain is often rather sad experience. Not something you read in travel guides, do you.

KPGv2 31 minutes ago||
It doesn't hurt that Swiss immigration is very difficult to get through, and they have all that Holocaust money no Nazi or dead Jewish victim is ever going to come claim.
solatic 45 minutes ago|||
> Not a single founder wakes up in the morning thinking to themselves: "oh I wish I could make my company XYZ-123 compliant!"

Somehow I doubt that you are in the B2B/Enterprise space. When you're pitching demos and you hear from people "we really wish we could buy your product but we can't because Finance won't approve the expenditure unless you get XYZ-123", and you hear that over and over again because that is the real-world industry that you live in, then you better believe that there are founders who wake up in the morning wishing that.

You clearly have no understanding of what compliance does. Compliance does not "shift responsibility". Compliance is you demonstrating to your customers that you give enough of a shit that you're willing to pay the table stakes to sit at the table. You can complain that the game has table stakes, but all worthwhile games have them.

kobieps 44 minutes ago||
This
Duhck 1 hour ago|||
When I worked in cybersecurity I had a similar realization. No one cared about security posture. They cared about insurance policies. People hired us to shift blame instead of improve security posture. this is not terribly different
leeter 1 hour ago|||
This is why I've said for years: If you want to drive best practices and policy with companies you can only do it with liability. Particularly non-insurable and non-tax deductible liability. If a company can't offload civil or criminal penalties to their insurance company and take the tax write down, they suddenly start caring about it.

That said, this should be used sparingly; as it embeds a behavior deep. If that behavior later no longer makes sense it can be extremely costly to change it later.

bjackman 1 hour ago||||
One of my FAANG security projects incidentally helped with some compliance efforts (I made very sure it was incidental, constantly said things like "I am thrilled that I can help you guys achieve your goals but I wanna be clear that I don't give a shit about compliance and I won't be allowing it to influence the direction of my product" in meetings, it must have been extremely annoying to work with me).

At some point I was asked to look over the documents for the compliance definition and it was really hilarious. I had to give my engineering perspective on which aspects of the requirements we were and weren't meeting.

But they were stuff like "you must have logs". "You must authenticate users". "You must log failed authentication attempts".

Did we fulfill these requirements? It's a meaningless question. Unless you were literally running an open door telnet service or something you could interpret the questions so as to support any answer you wanted to give.

So I just had to be like "do you want me to say yes?" and they did, so I said yes. Nothing productive was ever achieved during that engagement.

wccrawford 1 hour ago|||
I think it's subtly different than that.

Companies do want to be secure. They try, and they often fail because it's hard.

They hire auditors to find problems and to shift blame. But since they only have 30 days to fix the problems that are found, it's going to see a lot like they only care about shifting the blame. Because at that point, they only care about passing that audit.

Right after that, though, they start caring about security again.

How do I know? 19 years experience going through those audits on the company side. For 11 months of the year, it was clear the boss cared about security. For that 1 month during the 'free retest' period, they only cared about passing that audit.

tfrancisl 1 hour ago||
Maybe no one wakes up wanting to deal with compliance, but it you found a company that has legal or moral obligations to be compliant with these standards, you sure have signed yourself up for it. Passing the responsibility off to some other company is, quite simply, irresponsible.
egorfine 1 hour ago|||
> Passing the responsibility off to some other company is, quite simply, irresponsible.

Then do not pass the responsibility. But here's the trick: the regulator would like to see an audit done by a firm and purchasing audit services is exactly that: passing responsibility. So legally you can't be compliant unless you passed responsibility.

tfrancisl 1 hour ago||
These compliance companies are not primarily tasked with auditing, as this article makes very clear. Delve is in control of the auditing process in a way that is inappropriate and unusual for this industry. The work that the company with these obligations should be doing themselves is generating the Section 3 description and the controls. The auditor then independently verifies their compliance with the controls. Thats a clear delineation of responsibilty, IMO
egorfine 1 hour ago|||
Problem is, compliance is often detrimental to the cause. You want to encrypt users' data at rest? Illegal. You must store users data in a way prescribed by the law and it is extremely cumbersome, outdated and insecure.
ipython 17 minutes ago|
> the price quickly dropped to just $6,000 when they realized we were serious about going elsewhere, and they would throw in ISO 27001 and a 200 hour penetration test as well.

I'm sorry, but... $6,000 / 200 == $30 / hour? Just assuming the value of the actual certifications is $zero?

Wouldn't that raise some serious red flags?

codegeek 9 minutes ago|
$6000 for both SOC 2 and ISO 27001 with Pen tests ? lol. I paid over $8k just for ISO 27001 for our small company and have been quoted a lot more for SOC 2.
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