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Posted by surprisetalk 4 days ago

Overcoming the friendship recession(joeprevite.com)
118 points | 103 commentspage 2
ZpJuUuNaQ5 10 hours ago|
When I was about 10 years old it dawned on me that "friendship" is a really unclear, mutual agreement, and if you consider someone your friend, they might not consider you theirs (or at the very least, not on the same level of "friendliness") and vice versa. What does it even mean to be or have a "friend"? It's such a silly thing, but it permanently changed the way I looked at social connections. I never had "friends" ever since and don't feel like I am missing out on anything.
Simulacra 15 hours ago||
I read an outstanding quote in a Brad Thor novel that I think speaks volumes about how to make friends:

"Faith comes from trust, which comes from time, and experience"

With the Internet, and social media, it can feel like we have friends when we really don't. But what social media etc. has robbed from us is that before, we had to spend time with people, we had experience with them, and over time they led to trust, and friendship. That's how people made friends before. Now we don't put that much effort into friendships because we think we already have friends because we see them on Facebook.

johnnyanmac 8 hours ago||
That is a low key point the author touched on but never really expanded upon.

>It could be that I had my second kid in 2024 or that 2024 marked 5 years of working remotely.

The kids vs. single divide is real, and I don't think it needs much more elaboration.

Working remotely definitely has its costs, though. There's lots of discussions these days about 3rd places, and remote work more or less removes your "second place". We don't just drop by people's houses unannounced anymore, so that leaves zero places for friendhips to naturally form post school. It's definitely one thing I miss most about an in-office job.

To coworking initiative is a nice way to get some "company", but I imagine most people will still ultimately be focusing on doing work. So it's not quite the 2nd nor 3rd place the author desires.

As for me, it's pretty straightforward: I'm underemployed and am spending any down time applying to jobs. Not much time to hang out. I'm busy trying to survive first.

nephihaha 10 hours ago||
Meet in person. Rule no. 1.

Language can be a barrier, but not insurmountable.

Also that lockdown destroyed many social connections and it is up to each and every one of us to take the initiative instead of expecting it to happen to us.

metalliqaz 14 hours ago||
I have thought alot about making friends and why it's so hard. I keep coming back to the same question.

In myself I find I can't seem to muster the motivation to spend enough time with someone that it would take to form a friendship. I want to have friends, but I don't care to know any of these people. I just don't like anyone that much. The question is, am I just inherently a cynical asshole? Or, has modern life done something to me that it has also done to everyone else?

johnnyanmac 8 hours ago||
> Or, has modern life done something to me that it has also done to everyone else?

it's a mix of life moves and mismatched schedules, as well as some people simply being flaky. It's hard to make friends if you're always moving around for your job, and jobs are less stable than ever (be it willfully with job hops, or unwillfully with layoffs). So it happens a lot more.

And yeah, I think "flake culture" makes it harder to form gatherings when you're still forming that friendship. Some people just have other stuff in life (be it in or out of their control), but they never bother communicating it. So with that radio silence, you can't do much.

buzarchitect 12 hours ago||
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teaearlgraycold 6 hours ago||
Here’s what I do: Spend time at my local marker space. It’s easy to bond with people when you have such similar interests. It’s really amazing how exactly aligned I am with a set of the people there. Being in SF already biases people towards certain interests. But going beyond that to the inner circle of tech obsessed nerds, makers from all over the world that moved here with a purpose, gives me a form fitting community that probably only exists in a handful of locations on Earth. Play social deduction/deception games. I have a free social club of 100+ people that meets at least once per week. We all practice lying to each other and reading each other. Yeah it’s only a couple hours per week but it’s highly focused on social muscles we often only exercise infrequently elsewhere. No social media. Pretty much no long distance friendships (outside of stints where I play a lot of video games with someone). I genuinely do not give a damn what’s happening to people I haven’t seen in years even if I could know everything by looking at their feed. If I want to catch up I’ll make plans to have them visit me or I will visit them. There are people I do this for on a regular basis, but it’s a short list. I do not comprehend the appeal of social media. All of my social brain is exercised on face to face interactions. I think the biggest factors here are living in a city (I was pretty isolated when I lived in the suburbs) and having enough free time.
hrdwdmrbl 15 hours ago||
Unfortunately many people now strongly dislike receiving unexpected phone calls. You may (i have) genuinely upset some people by calling them. Yes, I’m rolling my eyes too, but that’s how they feel
lowdude 15 hours ago||
That was my first thought as well, and I am one of those people. I strongly dislike being called, especially unexpectedly, and much prefer a quick text message to maybe meet up in person, if the opportunity presents itself (e.g. if one of us happens to be in the town of the other one)
drzaiusx11 15 hours ago||
At this point in my life if someone I actually know irl calls out of the blue, it induces anxiety as it's a very non-zero chance someone has died...
chrisweekly 15 hours ago|||
Yeah, that's one of the reasons calls out of the blue are mostly reserved for emergencies in my family and friend group. Texts eliminate that factor, and are more polite. A phone call represents immediacy / urgency ("this merits interrupting whatever you might be doing right now"). A text like "hey are you free for a quick call?" lets the recipient pivot from what they're doing and engage on their terms. IMHO it's more considerate.
lotsofpulp 14 hours ago|||
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groby_b 15 hours ago|||
You're about one step away from sending an email to ask if you can send a text to ask if you can make a phone call.

It's not "more considerate" - you can ignore a phone call the same you can ignore a text. It's merely asking other people to optimize for you convenience only. That's perfectly fine to ask for, but it doesn't help with making friendships easy.

Insanity 14 hours ago|||
Disagree with this. Sending a text saying "Can we call when you're free" is more considerate of the other persons time than a random call. It sounds like you're trying to make it sound absurd by your 'send an email to send a text', rather than focus on _why_ the text makes sense.
chrisweekly 12 hours ago||
Thanks, yes, exactly. (I didn't respond to parent bc borderline trolling.)

FWIW, when I do make the occasional unexpected call, I make sure to start the call with "sorry to interrupt, everyone's fine, got a sec?" or similar.

Contra the other commenter's assertion, phone calls to friends and family are typically NOT as easily ignored as texts, precisely because they're not screened. Close friends and family leave themselves open to direct contact largely to account for potential emergencies. Their phone is going to ring and/or buzz, and (for at least some number of seconds) they won't know why. During which time they might reasonably fear it's terrible news. So you're starting the interaction by having interrupted and scared them. For no good reason. Failure to understand this is maybe just a sign of immaturity. Live long enough to be on the receiving end of such calls and it'll hopefully register.

johnnyanmac 8 hours ago|||
texts and emails are asynchronous. If they want to email me to call me, sure. I'd find it weird, but it's just as accessible as a text.

>It's merely asking other people to optimize for you convenience only.

no, it's compromise. Maybe they're free right now. maybe they are swamped all day with work or errands. Calling out of the blue is asking people to optimize for my convenience.

Insanity 14 hours ago||||
100% this. Apart from my SO and scammers, no one randomly calls me. If my brother would call me out of the blue I'd assume the worst. (Also, the one random call I vividly remember getting the past years is my mom calling me to let me know my grandfather unexpectedly passed away).

It's just needlessly anxiety-inducing. Not to mention it's a major inconvenience to interrupt someone randomly for a chat.

c22 15 hours ago||||
Man, this is the opposite for me. I'm filled with a great sense of relief any time my phone rings and I recognize the number...
righthand 15 hours ago|||
That’s the reason I started reaching out to old friends. A friend had died and I knew no one else would tell them. One I even had to track down through email and ask for their new phone number. But now that I’m in regular contact I find calling easier and I don’t have worst-case-scenario fears anymore.
robocat 7 hours ago|||
So what?

There are also heaps of people that love getting phonecalls, or love to get a nice voice message.

There's a whole other world of people that call and enjoy calling!!!!

Why let a subset of people rule your behaviour towards others not in that subset?

When people call, I try to encourage that. Unless I'm busy or they're too needy, so I don't answer.

I am especially encouraging towards anyone that struggles with text messages (one of my oldest friends was illiterate, and I've got other friends that would call themselves dyslexic).

I undermine that by messaging when I should call, because I like the written word.

AussieWog93 6 hours ago|||
N=1 here but I love getting out of the blue phone calls from the couple of friends that do it. If I can't pick up, or am too busy to chat, I just swipe up on of the prebaked "sorry, can't chat now" SMS responses.

It's them who initiate 90% of the calls too, and nobody cares.

baby 15 hours ago|||
One alternative is voice recordings on whatsapp!
gregoriol 15 hours ago||
This is the worst: people who use them hate the receiver
drzaiusx11 15 hours ago|||
Spam phone calls have become so horrendously common here in the US (multiple a day) that I just keep my mobile on do not disturb 24/7 with exceptions for those in my core contact group. Maybe I'll miss a call or two that actually had substance, but I'd rather be slightly more isolated than constantly annoyed. Find me on various online platforms with text chat, voice or video if you really want to reach me. Or don't.
alex_suzuki 14 hours ago|||
Same here. Spam calls have really picked up these last couple of years, I also get multiple per day. Here in Switzerland you need to register with your ID to get a mobile phone number, but somehow these spam callers still manage to appear to be calling from a mobile phone, which used to be a strong signal for “not spam”. It’s gotten so bad that I completely ignore unknown numbers, except if I’m expecting a call. This has its own downsides of course. Tragedy of the commons. :-( Maybe call screening can help, but at least on iOS it isn’t available yet here.
righthand 15 hours ago|||
Ridiculous how that ticked up in frequency (at least for me) after the last Potus election.
paradox460 5 hours ago|||
For me it's been down the last couple years, compared to a surge under the previous president. That means he's responsible, right? Or it could be I bought a house and financial institutions leak phone numbers like a colander
righthand 3 hours ago||
It cooled under Biden for me, but who am I to say. I wouldn’t be surprised if current admin stop prosecuting against the spam callers. Some times these outfits are connected to politicians. Have you seen the 3-part documentary, Telemarketers?
johnnyanmac 8 hours ago|||
Did you get laid off over the year? My spams always skyrocket on a job search. Just shows you what they are really doing with your resume (despite my LinkedIn profile being 15 years old and mostly updated. It's not hard to get my resume).

Also, AI acceleration the last few years. most of the calls I do answer are clearly fake voices trying to sound real, as opposed to some TTY.

johnnyanmac 8 hours ago|||
For my demographic (late millenial), calls imply urgency. Like, if I see a call from a friend out of the blue I'm worried something dire happened.

Texting is fine. We can schedule a call or meetup from there. But life as is is already so spontaneous, I don't need even more stuff to come up.

Barrin92 3 hours ago||
>But life as is is already so spontaneous

Is it? I think the exact opposite is true. Most people's life is a walking calendar. these days if someone can't "schedule" something they're losing their minds. Life was spontaneous when people didn't monitor every second of their day, when someone walked up to your house and asked you a question to your face, there wasn't a "I'll reply in ten minutes when I'm comfortable" button.

We're living in a comfort obsessed society where, when you can't run away and plan your reply, people have a panic attack. Dating for young people is terrible because it's about as spontaneous as a legal appointment.

metalman 15 hours ago||
many people are now unable to discuss personal things at all, as I have a small business that is growing, I have interviewed hundreds of people seeking employment, and flat out refuse to even talk about resumes or past qualifications, as what counts in this case is an ability to comunicate verbaly about a combination of technical specifications, and then the mundane details of achiving them, so a verbal interview,that focuses on there full skill sets, and youth, mentors, and other influenced, many choke and hand up, sputter and repeat the speel they have practiced, one in 50 can roll with it cheerfully.
charlie0 15 hours ago|||
I wonder what is driving this. I too sense that people are really guarded these days. For me, I work remotely and it's hard to build true rapport through Slack.
righthand 15 hours ago|||
Lack of barrier breaking. Fewer people call and talk outside of slack so it becomes the norm to not talk outside of slack. When you do it seems weird. Break the norm.
johnnyanmac 8 hours ago|||
Why would I open up on a company chat? I don't want my life on record to be used against me by HR later on. I'll tell some friendly coworkers about vacation details, but certainly not on a paper trail.
johnnyanmac 8 hours ago|||
I feel that's more an issue in a job interview. You want to use every minute to make yourself look good, and the general "wisdom" is that employers don't care about your hobbies or social life or passions. They want someone to do the job right now.
pino83 14 hours ago|
One thing that I've learned from my friends in the last 10 years:

You can either have deep friendships XOR children.

All of them are either still without children, or are by no means valuable friends anymore.

Sorry, but that's just how it is.

alex_suzuki 14 hours ago||
For me, kids have had a “filtering” effect. Where previously I had a lot of friends (including shallow ones), having less time and being less flexible in general compressed my circle of friends to just a few people with whom I share both a deeper connection and a mutual understanding that the pressures of life sometimes get between us, and that’s ok. And as another commenter mentioned, kids do grow older…
pino83 14 hours ago||
You might confirm or not. As far as I observe it, the "deeper connection" is virtually always with other parents. And this is exactly the connection. Without children, it's neither possible nor attractive to be one of these persons.
alex_suzuki 12 hours ago||
It’s true for me, and probably for most parents, that connecting with other parents via the shared experience of haing kids is easy: there’s always something to talk about. But I also find that for me, both parties having kids is simply not enough for it to click! I knew my close friends from before I had kids, the connection was already there.

I agree that making new friends across the “kids barrier” is hard. You just live in different worlds.

organsnyder 8 hours ago||
We've become really close friends with a couple of families on our block. It definitely helps that we all have kids the same age, but a big reason for this is that our kids entertain each other, freeing the adults (most of the time) to interact with each other.

I also sing in a small choir that is as much a friend group as it is a music ensemble. Most of us have kids, but not everyone; while I can't speak for those in the group without kids, I think one reason it works so well is because none of us have parenting responsibilities while we're together as a choir (we joke that rehearsals are a great time for us to escape from our families).

fnordlord 14 hours ago|||
If it helps, I've found hosting a pizza night to be a really easy way to have some good hang time with friends. I make the pizza and it's good enough to be free dinner for them. The kids get to participate by customizing their pies. We all catch up for an hour or two in the kitchen, watching me scramble and make a mess. If somebody brings over a bottle of wine, even better.
pino83 14 hours ago||
Yes, I'm sure that works. It's just not my cup of tea. Instead of doing that, I could just watch TV. And I'm really not a TV enthusiast.
johnnyanmac 8 hours ago||
>Instead of doing that, I could just watch TV.

That's not really a single vs. married divide there. That's just how you prioritize your energy in life.

MarkusQ 14 hours ago|||
Hang in there. As the kids get older, "XOR" can turn into "WITH".
jujube3 8 hours ago|||
Parents want to hang out with other parents.
johnnyanmac 8 hours ago|||
Parents by necessity need to prioritize their kid. Hard to relate when you're single. So I understand why parents seek out other parents; they have a common talking point built in for an icebreaker.

At the same time, that very much is cultural. We think we need to raise children alone, and that's very much not the case in many societies. Good friends (even single) would be part of the family and help out with looking after or playing with the kids. Basically an uncle/aunt.

GJim 14 hours ago||
Disappointing somebody has seen fit to "drive-by" downvote your post that simply describes your truthful personal observations.

Presumably they don't want to engage in discussion, which is precisely what this topic is about!

pino83 8 hours ago||
Well, quite often I think this way but resist to say so. This time it's even more obvious, though: They all know that I'm right. Everybody knows. That's not the point why they downvote.
garciansmith 5 hours ago||
Or perhaps people down voted because absolute statements on social relationships are often not absolute at all. Or maybe they even have a personal experience that is contrary to your statement. I say this as a childless person whose closest friend has a child and a significant other whose two closest friends have children. And yes, I would describe all those friendships as deep.