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Posted by vaylian 4 hours ago

Some Things Just Take Time(lucumr.pocoo.org)
282 points | 106 comments
Chris_Newton 2 hours ago|
With all the emphasis on the speed of modern AI tools, we often seem to forget that velocity is a vector quantity. Increased speed only gets us where we want to be sooner if we are also heading in the right direction. If we’re far enough off course, increasing speed becomes counterproductive and it ends up taking longer to get where we want to be.

I’ve been noticing that this simple reality explains almost all of both the good and the bad that I hear about LLM-based coding tools. Using AI for research or to spin up a quick demo or prototype is using it to help plot a course. A lot of the multi-stage agentic workflows also come down to creating guard rails before doing the main implementation so the AI can’t get too far off track. Most of the success stories I hear seem to be in these areas so far. Meanwhile, probably the most common criticism I see is that an AI that is simply given a prompt to implement some new feature or bug fix for an existing system often misunderstands or makes bad assumptions and ends up repeatedly running into dead ends. It moves fast but without knowing which direction to move in.

gopalv 34 minutes ago||
> Increased speed only gets us where we want to be sooner if we are also heading in the right direction.

This is a real problem when the "direction" == "good feedback" from a customer standpoint.

Before we had a product person for every ~20 people generating code and now we're all product people, the machines are writing the code (not all of it, but enough of it that I will -1 a ~4000 line PR and ask someone to start over, instead of digging out of the hole in the same PR).

Feedback takes time on the system by real users to come back to the product team.

You need a PID like smoothing curve over your feature changes.

Like you said, Speed isn't velocity.

Specifically if you have a decent experiment framework to keep this disclosure progressive in the customer base, going the wrong direction isn't a huge penalty as it used to be.

I liked the PostHog newsletter about the "Hidden dangers of shipping fast", I can't find a good direct link to it.

Ezra 10 minutes ago||
This is the article you referred to:

https://newsletter.posthog.com/p/the-hidden-danger-of-shippi...

nabbed 28 minutes ago|||
>Increased speed only gets us where we want to be sooner if we are also heading in the right direction.

I suppose there is an argument that if you are building the wrong thing, build it fast so that you can find out more quickly that you built the wrong thing, allowing you to iterate more quickly.

overfeed 1 minute ago|||
> I suppose there is an argument that if you are building the wrong thing, build it fast so that you can find out more quickly that you built the wrong thing,

A lot of people are so enamored by speed, they are not even taking the time to carefully consider the full picture of what they are building. Take the HN frontpage story on OpenCode: a maintainer admitted they keep adding many shallow features that are brittle.

Speed cannot replace product vision and discipline.

roughly 19 minutes ago|||
It's still faster and cheaper to just build the right thing to begin with. As the old saying goes, spend your time sharpening your ax.
skydhash 1 hour ago||
> It moves fast but without knowing which direction to move in.

It also moves fast with a tendency to pick the wrong direction (according to the goal of the prompter) at every decision point (known or unknown).

tombert 1 hour ago||
I've definitely gotten it into contexts where it will never stop going into the wrong direction, even when I tell it to forget everything it did before, and told it a correct path forward. Usually restarting the entire session fixes it, but not always.
imilev 27 minutes ago||
Awesome article, I feel a lot of people have also forgotten that good projects take iteration not 100 new features. To get few features to an excelent state it requires multilpe iterations at multiple stages. 1) The developer who does a task validates that their thinking was the correct one, they see how they changes impact the system, is it scalable? Does it need to be scalable? While you are working and thinking on it you get more and more context which simply wasn't there at the begining. 2) A feature done once (even after my perfect ClaudeCode plan) is not done forever, people will want to make it better/faster/smoother/etc. But instead of taking the time to analyze and perfect it we go onto the next feature, and if we have to iterate on the current one, we don't iterate we redo...

Really like the article I think it is awesome, and I strongly believe AI for coding will stay, but I also beleive that we need to still have a strong understanding of why we are building things and what they look like.

keiferski 21 minutes ago||
One of my favorite ideas from Nietzsche [1] is that civilizations take millennia to “digest” or integrate concepts. It seems a little obvious, maybe, until you look at the modern world and realize the baseline assumption is something like, “every problem is just a question of resources.”

An example being the common attitude that [advanced tech] is just a math problem to be solved, and not a process that needs to play itself out in the real world, interacting with it and learning, then integrating those lessons over time.

Another way to put this is: experience is undervalued, and knowledge is overvalued. Probably because experience isn’t fungible and therefore cannot be quantified as easily by market systems.

1. Probably not his original idea, and now that I think about it this is kind of more Hegelian. I’m not familiar enough with Hegel to reference him though.

DrewADesign 2 minutes ago|
I have no problem with people treating advanced tech like a math problem. I have a big goddamned problem with the tech world seeing things like creativity, expression, exploration, imagination, experience, companionship, empathy, sex, fun, beauty, inspiration, and all of that human-y sort of stuff as a goddamned math problem to be solved. It’s just so sad and most people resent it being shoved down their throats by tech companies abusing their societal leverage.
alexpotato 2 hours ago||
I've been working on a clone of Sid Meier's Pirates but with a princess theme (for my daughters).

I've been using AI to help me write it and I've come to a couple conclusions:

- AI can make working PoCs incredibly quickly

- It can even help me think of story lines, decision paths etc

- Given that, there is still a TON of decisions to be made e.g. what artwork to use, what makes sense from a story perspective

- Playtesting alone + iterating still occurs at human speed b/c if humans are the intended audience, getting their opinions takes human time, not computer time

I've started using this example more and more as it highlights that, yes, AI can save huge amounts of time. However, as we learned from the Theory of Constraints, there is always another bottleneck somewhere that will slow things down.

simonw 2 hours ago||
I've tried a few game projects with coding agents - having never worked on a game before in my life - and the main thing I learned is that the hard part is designing it to be fun.

Coming up with a genuinely interesting gameplay loop with increasing difficulty levels and progressively revealed gameplay mechanics is a fascinating and extremely difficult challenge, no matter how much AI you throw at the problem.

potro 2 hours ago|||
I have very similar experience. I vibecoded a foreign language practice app for myself. It works decent from functional perspective and I don’t see too many bugs. But the biggest productivity constraint I see is the time I need to spend using it in order to understand what is working and where the issues are.
ozim 1 hour ago||
My newest joke is:

„I was able to vibecode those 5 apps I always wanted but never had time to code them myself … it is so different now because — I don’t have time to use them”.

zzleeper 1 hour ago||
LMK if you finish it, sounds like something my daughter would enjoy!
fuzzy_biscuit 3 minutes ago||
Some of the items listed in the "takes time" list say the beginning are not great examples. They are better emblems of artificial scarcity, especially Hermes bags.
titanomachy 3 hours ago||
> We pay premiums for Swiss watches, Hermès bags and old properties precisely because of the time embedded in them

Lost me in paragraph three. We pay for those things because they're recognizable status symbols, not because they took a long time to make. It took my grandmother a long time to knit the sweater I'm wearing, but its market value is probably close to zero.

simonw 3 hours ago||
I would say that wearing a sweater knitted by one's grandmother is its own kind of status symbol. I'm more impressed by that (someone having a grandmother willing to invest that much effort in a gift for them) than someone spending $1000 on an item of clothing.

The fact that those items took a long time to make is part of what makes them status symbols though, because if you pay a lot of money for something that took no time to make at all (see most NFTs) you look like an idiot to a lot of people.

ghurtado 2 hours ago|||
> status symbol.

This sort of thing was done at a time when everybody did it, and now that it's not done, nobody does it

No kid ever said "did you see the sweater that Timmy's grandma knitted for him? That kid is so cool! "

Mostly because they all had grams sweaters as well.

I don't know what term you were looking for, but a handmade present for someone dear is about the furthest thing from a "status symbol" that I can think of:

- it can't be bought

- it can't be transferred without losing almost all value (ie: it's only valuable to you, or at most your family, eBay doesn't want it)

- it provides no improvement whatsoever in one's social standing

NiloCK 2 hours ago|||
What are you referring to with the phrase "status symbol"?

I can't connect it at all to your listed points. An Olympic medal is about obvious a status symbol as I can imagine but it can't (meaningfully) be bought or transferred.

The status signified with a knit sweater is membership (and good standing!) in a caring family with elders not yet fully subsumed into their phones.

People, acquaintances and strangers alike, frequently comment on the knit socks I often wear, ask after who made them, and all of a sudden we're on "how's your mom" terms.

ghurtado 1 hour ago||
> it can't (meaningfully) be bought or transferred.

https://www.ebay.com/b/Olympic-Medal/27291/bn_55191416?_sop=...

> People, acquaintances and strangers alike, frequently comment on the knit socks I often wear,

Ok, that explains pretty much everything about your line of thought.

Thanks.

bluecheese452 1 hour ago|||
Buying someone else’s medal is not a status symbol. That is why they included the word meaningfully.
NiloCK 1 hour ago|||
(edited for clarity)

> https://www.ebay.com/b/Olympic-Medal/27291/bn_55191416?_sop=...

Of course you can buy an Olympic medal. You can't buy the status conferred by the medal (of Olympic champion / nth runner up).

> Ok, that explains pretty much everything about your line of thought.

I don't understand this either. Are you insulting me?

simonw 2 hours ago|||
I don't care about the opinion of kids.

I'm also completely unimpressed by someone wearing a Rolex though, so different mileage for different people.

ghurtado 1 hour ago||
You should be able to understand the definition of a common term such as "status symbol" though.

Understanding words does not require being impressed by anything, nor caring about the opinion of kids.

simonw 1 hour ago|||
Different mileage for different people.
daveguy 1 hour ago|||
If most people are thinking "whoopdedoo... you clearly have more money than sense" when they see your status symbol, is it still a status symbol?
Avicebron 1 hour ago||
It depends, if someone fundamentally believes that having more money than someone else means that person is of higher status, then it is.

If people don't consider that someone with more money is of a higher status then symbols of that wealth aren't meaningful.

I think a lot of people have an ingrained belief that "more money == more status"

cineticdaffodil 2 hours ago||||
To be worthy that much time is the statussymbol of love. Its a rare thing, money can't buy. Somebody gifts part of his finite time on the planet to you bundled in an artifact.
titanomachy 3 hours ago|||
I like the sweater, and some people like you might recognize it as special, but it doesn't have the universal cachet of a Rolex or something. It's also a bit chunky and funny-looking (but I guess so are some Rolexes).
daveguy 1 hour ago||
"universal" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
doe88 1 hour ago|||
I feel you, I guess i succeeded in not being lost and keep reading by solving the conendrum in telling myself: it certainly should take time to grow the cows for the bags. Nonetheless I'm glad i finished reading it, it was a good essay.
satvikpendem 2 hours ago|||
Yes, Veblen goods, and there are examples of cloning Hermès bags for example (still by hand) where they're much cheaper yet took the same amount of time to create.

https://youtu.be/02CjWIkTy-M

agumonkey 3 hours ago|||
Maybe the analogy was wrong but more and more, I believe that some of a value was implicitly about how many organs/industries did it touch.
ghywertelling 2 hours ago||
[dead]
airstrike 2 hours ago||
Reads like a feel good article to signal virtue and feel validated in the wake of the Delve scandal. But ultimately obvious, opportunistic, and mid.
Swizec 3 hours ago||
> everybody who is like me, fully onboarded into AI and agentic tools, seemingly has less and less time available because we fall into a trap where we’re immediately filling it with more things

You fill a jar with sand and there is no space for big rocks.

But if you fill the jar with big rocks, there is plenty of space for sand. Remove one of the rocks and the sand instantly fills that void.

Make sure you fit the rocks first.

d0liver 1 hour ago||
I think that's kind of the point though: AI is the sand, but it's the rocks that hold all of the value; the further you get away from using AI the more real value you obtain. Like, a few of the rocks have gold deposits in them, and the sand is just infinitely copious but never holds anything valuable. And you've got a bunch of people running around saying, "Behold my mountains of sand!"
big-chungus4 3 hours ago|||
You fill the bottle with water, you put a fish in it, you remove half of the water, the bottle is still half full, but if you remove the fish, it will have less water than before.

You fill the bottle with half of the water, you put the fish in, you can fill in the other half. If you start with the first half, you will end up with more water.

Vegenoid 1 hour ago|||
The point of the metaphor is not to say "spending time is mechanically similar to putting things in a container". It is to look at spending time from a new angle, and see if it helps you understand it better. A wise person sees a metaphor as a launching point for thought, not as an expression of a metaphysical connection.

Yes, there are bad metaphors, and people who take metaphors too seriously. That you can conjure a bad metaphor with somewhat similar to semantics to some other metaphor does not mean that said metaphor is bad.

ghurtado 2 hours ago||||
In a more advanced civilisation, you would be put in the pillory for the townsfolk to throw rotten cabbage at you until the Lord fixed whatever made you say that.
hk__2 41 minutes ago||||
You write a metaphore in a comment, you remove half of it, you add another one in the middle, you add the half of the first one, and… nobody understands anything.
otterley 1 hour ago||||
You put your right foot in, you put your right foot out, you put your right foot in, and you shake it all about.
hedayet 2 hours ago||||
> You fill the bottle with water, you put a fish in it, [some water overflows], you remove half of water...

That water overflow step is missing / implicit. But that's an observable event.

jareklupinski 2 hours ago||||
you fill the 3 liter bottle up to the top, and pour the contents into the 5 liter bottle

then you fill 3 liter bottle again, and pour the contents into the 5 liter bottle until the 5 liter one is full

empty the 5 liter bottle, and pour the 1 liter in the 3 liter bottle into the 5 liter bottle

fill the 3 liter bottle again and pour that into the 1 liter already in the 5 liter bottle to get 4 liters of water

auggierose 2 hours ago|||
What?
NikolaNovak 2 hours ago|||
I assume post used extreme example to demonstrate that wise-sounding metaphors may not have inherent point or value.
sritchie 2 hours ago||||
Hahah, I just have to reply and say I loved the original comment and was happy for the laugh. Obviously this is the answer to the riddle of

> Given a 3-liter container and a 5-liter container, both initially empty, and access to tap water, how can you measure exactly 4 liters of water without using any additional containers

I've offered and received some convoluted metaphors recently, love leaning hard into this one.

ghurtado 2 hours ago||||
Psilocybin?

Not sure, I used to be better at diagnosing this type of episode.

satvikpendem 2 hours ago||||
They're talking about Archimedes' principle, displacement of water. The fish makes the water bottle overflow, so be careful when you add the fish so that it doesn't. It's a counter analogy to the rocks one above.
spencerflem 2 hours ago|||
They’re pointing out that if the jar was _filled_ with sand, then of course you can’t fit any rocks in because it’s full. It’s cute but misunderstands the original metaphor I think.
wizardforhire 2 hours ago||
If that ain’t the secret to solving an np complete problem I don’t know what is!
ivanjermakov 5 minutes ago||
We value human ingenuity and effort. If there was a button "create an Oscar-worty movie" anyone could press it would make a paradox. The trick is that this won't render film industry useless, since we watch movies only when we believe they're worth our time, which is not true for zero-effort content.
ChuckMcM 55 minutes ago||
I've been hearing similar things from a lot of different directions. The underlying issue about "you cannot replace time" is one that is good to internalize early. A number of people I know who "missed" their kids growing up because they were working hard to make lots of money. You can't go buy "time with my kids when they were growing up."

Agentic coding very much feels like a "video game" in the sense of you pull the lever and open the loot box and sometimes it's an epic +10 agility sword and sometimes its just grey vendor trash. Whether or not it generates "good" or even "usable" code fades to the background as the thrill of "I just asked for a UI to orchestrate micro services and BLAMMO there it was!" moves to the fore.

wazHFsRy 1 hour ago|
Sounds familiar, for most of my life I have tried to remove all "friction" from life – applying that engineering mindset to make everything as efficient as possible. Only then I realized that life somehow is about that "friction".
tablet 1 hour ago|
Indeed. Without friction you can't steer.
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