Posted by albelfio 17 hours ago
I'm running a 70b model now that's okay, but it's still fairly tight. And I've got 16gb more vram then the red v2.
I'm also confused why this is 12U. My whole rig is 4u.
The green v2 has better GPUs. But for $65k, I'd expect a much better CPU and 256gb of RAM. It's not like a threadripper 7000 is going to break the bank.
I'm glad this exists but it's... honestly pretty perplexing
The thing that’s less useful is the 64G VRAM/128G System RAM config, even the large MoE models only need 20B for the router, the rest of the VRAM is essentially wasted (Mixing experts between VRAM and/System RAM has basically no performance benefit).
I imagine that's because they are buying a single SKU for the shell/case. I imagine their answer to your question would be: In order to keep prices low and quality high, we don't offer any customization to the server dimensions
I used to own a Dell Poweredge for my home-office, but those fans even on minimal setting kept me up at night
But yeah, 4x Blackwell 6000s are ~32-36k, not sure where the other $30k is going.
A 120B model cannot fit on 4 x 24GB GPUs at full quantization.
Either you're confusing this with the 20B model, or you have 48GB modded 3090s.
EDIT: Either they edited that to say "quad 3090s", or I just missed it the first time.
I don't see the 120B claim on the page itself. Unless the page has been edited, I think it's something the submitter added.
I agree, though. The only way you're running 120B models on that device is either extreme quantization or by offloading layers to the CPU. Neither will be a good experience.
These aren't a good value buy unless you compare them to fully supported offerings from the big players.
It's going to be hard to target a market where most people know they can put together the exact same system for thousands of dollars less and have it assembled in an afternoon. RTX 6000 96GB cards are in stock at Newegg for $9000 right now which leaves almost $30,000 for the rest of the system. Even with today's RAM prices it's not hard to do better than that CPU and 256GB of RAM when you have a $30,000 budget.
Can't you offload KV to system RAM, or even storage? It would make it possible to run with longer contexts, even with some overhead. AIUI, local AI frameworks include support for caching some of the KV in VRAM, using a LRU policy, so the overhead would be tolerable.
With that said, people are trying to extend VRAM into system RAM or even NVMe storage, but as soon as you hit the PCI bus with the high bandwidth layers like KV cache, you eliminate a lot of the performance benefit that you get from having fast memory near the GPU die.
Only useful for prefill (given the usual discrete-GPU setup; iGPU/APU/unified memory is different and can basically be treated as VRAM-only, though a bit slower) since the PCIe bus becomes a severe bottleneck otherwise as soon as you offload more than a tiny fraction of the memory workload to system memory/NVMe. For decode, you're better off running entire layers (including expert layers) on the CPU, which local AI frameworks support out of the box. (CPU-run layers can in turn offload to storage for model parameters/KV cache as a last resort. But if you offload too much to storage (insufficient RAM cache) that then dominates the overhead and basically everything else becomes irrelevant.)"
Still, this is a great idea, and one I hope takes off. I think there's a good argument that the future of AI is in locally-trained models for everyone, rather than relying on a big company's own model.
One thought: The ability to conveniently get this onto a 240v circuit would be nice. Having to find two different 120v circuits to plug this into will be a pain for many folks.
* this section written by me typing on keyboard *
* this section produced by AI *
And usually both exist in document and lengthy communications. This gets what I wanted across with exactly my intention and then I can attach 10x length worth of AI appendix that would be helpful indexing and references.
Are references helpful when they're generated? The reader could've generated them themselves. References would be helpful if they were personal references of stuff you actually read and curated. The value then would be getting your taste. References from an AI may well be good-looking nonsense.
Maybe the volume for them is ok that well-intentioned but poor quality PRs can be politely(or otherwise, culture depending) disregarded and the method of generation is not important.
Then you could focus fire, like the script kiddies did with DDoS in the old days on fixing whatever preferred issues you have.
fundamentally, looks like they are shipping consumer off-the-shelf hardwares in a custom box.
Or could be the server edition 6000s that just have a heatsink and rely on the case to drive air through them, those are 600W cards.
(I work for an electrical contractor so my sense of ease might be overcorrecting)
If it shipped with like 4090+ (for a higher price) it’d be more tempting.
https://x.com/__tinygrad__/status/1983917797781426511
Stopped due to raising GPU prices:
Wouldn't there be a massive duplication of effort in that case? It'll be interesting to see how the costs play out. There are security benefits to think about as well in keeping things local-first.
No need for separate circuits, just use a double adapter.
old construction in the US sometimes did this intentionally (so old, the house didn’t have grounds. Or to “pass” an inspection and sell a place) but if a licensed electrician sees this they have to fix it.
I’m dealing with a 75 year old house that’s set up this way, the primary issue this is causing is that a 50amp circuit for their HVACs are taking a shorter path to ground inside the house instead of in the panel.
As a result the 50 amp circuit has blown through several of the common 20amp grounds and neutrals and left them with dead light fixtures and outlets because they’re bridged all over the place.
If an HVAC or two does this, I’d advise against this for your 3200 watt AI rig.
EU, you don’t want to try to energize your ground. They use step down transformers or power supplies capable of taking 115-250 (their systems are 240-250V across the load and neutral lines. Not 120 across the load and neutral like ours.)
in the US. you’re talking about energizing your ground plane with 120v and I don’t want to call that safe… but it’s REALLY NOT SAFE to make yourself the shortest path to ground on say. a wet bathroom floor. with 220V-250v.
In Europe, you could plug the two power supplies into an appropriately sized 240V circuit.
In an apartment you can't rewire, you could set it up in your kitchen, which in the modern US code should have two separate 20A circuits. You will need to put it to sleep while you use appliances.
But this is re: European 240/250 which is 240 between its load and neutral
I’d say don’t energize either systems ground plane, but , really, don’t do this in EU
So basically you need a brand new circuit run if you don't have two 120V circuits next to each other. But if you're spending $65k on a single machine, an extra grand for an electrician to run conduit should be peanuts. While you're at it I would def add a whole-home GFCI, lightning/EMI arrestor, and a UPS at the outlet, so one big shock doesn't send $65k down the toilet.
He's not saying you would use it as two separate 120v circuits sharing a ground but rather as a single 240v circuit. His point is that it's easy to rewire for 240v since it's the same as all the other wiring in your house just with both poles exposed.
Of course you do have to run a new wire rather than repurpose what's already in the wall since you need the entire circuit to yourself. So I think it's not as trivial as he's making out.
But then at that wattage you'll also want to punch an exhaust fan in for waste heat so it's not like you won't already be making some modifications.
Can confirm.
The only place where there's isolation is stuff like USB ports to avoid dangerous ground loop currents.
That said I believe the PSU itself provides full isolation and won't backfeed so using two on separate circuits should (maybe?) be safe. Although if one circuit tripped the other PSU would immediately be way over capacity. Hopefully that doesn't cause an extended brownout before the second one disables itself.
Oh wait, I get it, it's bike shedding.
I have no idea who would buy this. Maybe if you think Vera Rubin is three years out? But NV ships, man, they are shipping.
Can it run Crysis?
-- Jensen Huang
This is already solved by running LM Studio on a normal computer.
If you compare tokens/kWh efficiency then my math has Mac Studio being about 1.5x more efficient.
Has this guy never worked on a B2B product before? Nobody is going to order a $10 million piece of infrastructure through your website's order form. And they are definitely going to want to negotiate something, even if it's just a warranty. And you'll do it because they're waving a $10 million check in your face.
The tone of this website is arrogant to the point of being almost hostile. The guy behind this seems to think that his name carries enough weight to dictate terms like this, among other things like requiring candidates to have already contributed to his product to even be considered for a job. I would be extremely surprised if anyone except him thinks he's that important.
Besides a lot of self congratulatory pats on the back for how elegant it is. Honestly, when I read it, it looked confusing as all the other ML libraries. Not actually simple like Karpathy’s stuff.
All that to say, I do really want it to succeed. They should probably hire some practical engineers and not just guys and gals congratulating themselves how elegant and awesome they are.
> Can you fill out this supplier onboarding form?
That's very important context, as anyone who has been asked to fill out a supplier onboarding form (hi) will attest.
> we don't offer any customization to the box or ordering process
Every B2B deal of that size that I've ever seen requires at least weeks of meetings between the customer and vendor, in which every detail is at least discussed if not negotiated. That would certainly constitute a "customization" to this guy's prescribed ordering process, which is to "Buy it now" [1] through the website at the stated price like you're ordering a jar of peanuts on Amazon. This is not "framing", it's what the guy said. If it isn't what he meant then he needs to fix his copy.
[1] Yes, there is an actual "Buy it now" button for a $65,000 business purchase that takes you to a page that looks just like a Stripe form. There isn't even a textbox for delivery instructions. Wild.
On a website where we frequently talk about disruptive business models, this whole attitude kinda stinks.
Sure, I guess. Far more likely that they won't succeed, and it will be because of their pointless refusal to cooperate with others. I'm curious why you think we should "disrupt" companies putting a little due diligence into massive purchases.
> On a website where we frequently talk about disruptive business models, this whole attitude kinda stinks.
I could say the same thing about making a comment like this on a website where groupthink is rightfully mocked.
That sounds very neutral, but wouldn't this, by removing the human element and flexibility from business transactions, be a further step along a general enshittification trend?
First encounter with geohot eh?
The YouTube rap video of geohotz telling Sony lawyers suing him to blow him is still up.
His style of dealing with corporate matters is certainly unconventional
> 20,000 lbs
> concrete slab
Huge-scale IT systems are typically delivered in one or more 42/44u cabinets, and are designed to be installed on raised floors.
I mean I'm sure lots of companies do this in practice because tickets for higher-paying customers naturally get prioritized, but directly stating your intention to do it on your home page is hilarious.
This guy desperately needs a marketing intern to look over his copy. Or hell, anyone who knows how to talk to humans.
I mean, you're not wrong: buying enterprise software from Oracle or Microsoft or Salesforce is pure pain.
But nobody expects buying niche hardware from a tiny vendor to involve the usual 128 pre/post sale meetings and 256 hours of professional services.
Also, relevant VP buying these things usually do understand the difference between AMD and Nvidia stacks really well. Like, really-really well.
There are certain quirks of this platform's user base that always make me laugh. For example, HNers absolutely love to imply something condescending about the other guy's workplace in order to make their point.
Watch this, I can do it too: Working with managers who make $65,000 (or $10 million) purchases with no more due diligence than reading a marketing page and clicking "Buy it now" is not the flex you think it is.
And I honestly see almost no correlation between the amount of negotiation involved, and value received.
Some of the most useful things we've integrated were either free or meant that only the "buy it now" button had to be clicked.
Some of the absolutely worst systems I had to work with were purchased after making a call to that "let us know" number.
This tiny guy is mostly saying that he doesnt have the time for enterprise bla-bla. I am not sure he can organise enterprise sales with this attitude but can definitely relate to it!
I have no use for these but I might buy one anyway if I won the lottery. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edit: found a third party referencing the claim but it doesn't belong in the title here I think:
Meet the World’s Smallest ‘Supercomputer’ from Tiiny AI; A Machine Bold Enough to Run 120B AI Models Right in the Palm of Your Hand
https://wccftech.com/meet-the-worlds-smallest-supercomputer-...
Now I'm wondering if the HN title was submitted by some AI bot that couldn't tell the difference.
I think Tinygrad should think about recycling. Are they planning ahead in this regard? Is anyone? My thought is if there was a central database of who own what and where, at least when the recycling tech become available, people will know where to source their specific trash (and even pay for it.) Having a database like that in the first place could even fuel the industry.