Posted by onlyspaceghost 11 hours ago
I feel like part of the blame for the situation is that JavaScript has always lacked a standard library which contains the "atomic architecture" style packages. (A standard library wouldn't solve everything, of course.)
Edit: Removed a reference to node and bun.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API
The above seems fairly expansive, even if we remove all the experimental ones in the list.
People keep telling me the approach I am taking won't scale or will be hard to maintain, yet my experience has been that things stay simple and easy to change in a way I haven't experienced in dependency-heavy projects.
I think this is because the whole web dev knowledge ecosystem of youtubers and tutorial platforms is oriented around big frameworks and big tooling. People think it is much harder than it actually is to build without frameworks or build tools, or that the resulting web app will perform much worse than it actually will. A typical react codebase ported to a fully vanilla codebase ends up just as modular and around 1.5x the number of lines of code, and is tiny in total footprint due to the lack of dependencies so typically performs well.
To be clear though: I’m not arguing the dependencies are bad or don’t have any benefits at all or that vanilla coding is a superior way. Coding this way takes longer and the resulting codebase has more lines of code, and web components are “uglier” than framework components. What I’m saying is that most web developers are trapped in a mindset that these dependencies must be used when in reality they are optional and not always the best choice.
Come to think of it, I should write up the techniques I use, too...e.g. I have simple wrappers around querySelector() and createElement() with a bit of TypeScript gymnastics in a JSDoc annotation to add intellisense + type checking for custom elements.
Would you be open to a pull request with a page on static analysis/type checking for vanilla JS? (intro to JSDoc, useful patterns for custom elements, etc.) If not, that's totally OK, but I figure it could be interesting to readers of the site.
And agreed on vanilla/dependency-free not being a silver bullet. There aren't really one-size-fits-all solutions in software, but I've found a vanilla approach (and then adding dependencies only if/when necessary) tends to help the software evolve in a natural way and stay simple where possible.
Depending on the use case, minimizing dependancies can also decrease attack vectors on the page/app.
What do you use for model updates?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_(programming)
The idea of reactivity started in the 1990's in production.
When Gmail was released this technology is what made a website behave like a desktop app (plus the huge amount of storage)
If we were to look into today's equivalent of doing this, it might be surprising what exists in the standard libraries.
What's more, given the tools we have today, it fits really well with agentic engineering. It's even easier to create and understand a homegrown version of a dependency you may have used before.
The client has not had to pay a cent for any sort of migration work.
Of course, it also means you have to be cautious about problems that dependencies promise to solve (e.g. XSS), but at the same time, bringing in a bunch of third-party code isn't a substitute for fully understanding your own system.
I have worked at employer, where one could have done the frontend easily in a traditional server side templating language since most of the pages where static information anyway and very little interactive. But instead of doing that and have 1 person do that, making an easily accessible and standard-conforming frontend, they decided to go with nextjs and required 3 people fulltime to maintain this, including all the usual churn and burn of updating dependencies and changing the "router" and stuff. Porting a menu from one instance of the frontend to another frontend took 3 weeks. Fixing a menu display bug after I reported it took 2 or 3 months.
From human society's PoV, you sound like a 10X engineer and wonderful person.
But from the C-suite's PoV ...yeah. You might want to keep quite about this.
that's in contrast with the sort of stuff that invariably shows up when something falls over somewhere in a dependency:
cannot access property "apply" of null
at forEach()
at setTimeout()
at digest()
at callback()
at then()
...
The main cause of bloat is not polyfills or atomic packages. The cause of bloat is bloat!
I love this quote by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry (author of the Little Prince):
"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing left to add, but nothing to take away."
Most software is not written like that. It's not asking "how can we make this more elegant?" It's asking "what's the easiest way to add more stuff?"
The answer is `npm i more-stuff`.
> Every sentence must do one of two things—reveal character or advance the action.
Or Quintilian's praise of Demosthenes and Cicero: "To Demosthenes nothing can be added, but from Cicero nothing can be taken away."
Use the time of a total stranger in such a way that he or she will not feel the time was wasted.
Give the reader at least one character he or she can root for.
Every character should want something, even if it is only a glass of water.
Every sentence must do one of two things—reveal character or advance the action.
Start as close to the end as possible.
Be a sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them—in order that the reader may see what they are made of.
Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia.
Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible. To heck with suspense. Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages.
The greatest American short story writer of my generation was Flannery O'Connor (1925-1964). She broke practically every one of my rules but the first. Great writers tend to do that.
I've been noticing for a while now this is missing in most modern tv shows. It makes the show feel pointless.
I don’t need to know the color of the walls if it does neither.
if you're developing some sort of dystopia where everyone is heavily medicated, better to show a character casually take the medication rather than describe it.
of course, that's not a rule set in stone. you can do whatever the fuck you want.
You mean the character of a place?
JavaScript seems to be unique in that you want your code to work in browsers of the past and future—so a lot of bloat could come from compatibility, as mentioned in the article—and it's a language for UIs, so a lot of bloat in apps and frameworks could come from support for accessibility, internationalization, mobile, etc.
Lots of developers don't even say they are JS devs but React devs or something. This is normal given that the bandwidth and power of targets are so large nowadays. Software is like a gas, it will fill all the space you can give it since there is no reason to optimize anything if it runs ok.
I've spent countless hours optimising javascript and css to work across devices that were slow and outdated but still relevant (IE7, 8 and 9 were rough years). Cleverness breads in restrictive environments where you want to get the most out of it. Modern computers are so large that its hard for you to hit the walls when doing normal work.
Every C++ app I install in linux requires 250 packages
Every python app I install and then pip install requirements uses 150 packages.
10GB of build artifacts for the debug target.
With that said, there are plenty of small game engines out there, but couple Rust's somewhat slow compile times with the ecosystems preferences for "many crates" over "one big crate", and yeah, even medium-scale game engines like Bevy take a bunch of time and space to compile. But it is a whole game engine after all, maybe not representative of general development in the community.
There's no way the average C++ app uses 250 packages though. It's usually more like 5. C++ packaging is a huge pain so people tend to use them only when absolutely necessary, and you get huge libraries like Boost primarily because of the packaging difficulty.
I would say Python varies but 150 sounds high. Something more like 50-100 is typical in my experience.
Not to the language but its users. Not to bash them, but most of them did not study IT on a university, did not learn about the KISS principle etc.
They just followed some tutorials to hack together stuff, now automated via LLM's.
So in a way the cause is the language as it is so easy to use. And the ecosystem grew organically from users like this - and yes, the ecosystem is full of bloat.
(I think claude nowdays is a bit smarter, but when building standalone html files without agents, I remember having to always tell chatgpt to explicitely NOT pull in yet another libary, but use plain vanilla js for a standard task, which usually works better and cleaner with the same lines of code or maybe 2 or 3 more for most cases. The standard was to use libaries for every new functionality )
It sure seems like it is because JS devs, by and large, suck at programming. C has a pretty sparse standard library, but you don't see C programmers creating shared libraries to determine if a number is odd, or to add whitespace to a string.
Believe me, if C had a way to seamlessly share libraries across architectures, OSes, and compiler versions, something similar would have happened.
Instead you get a situation where every reasonably big modern C project starts by implementing their own version of string libraries, dynamic arrays, maps (aka dictionaries), etc. Not much different really.
Ancient browser support is a thing, but ES5 has been supported everywhere for like 13 years now (as per https://caniuse.com/es5).
And weird browser support.
People use the oddest devices to do "on demand" jobs (receiving a tiny amount of money for a small amount of work). Although there aren't that many, I've seen user agents from game consoles, TVs, old Androids, iPod touch, and from Facebook and other "browser makers", with names such as Agency, Herring, Unique, ABB, HIbrowser, Vinebre, Config, etc. Some of the latter look to be Chrome or Safari skins, but there's no way to tell; I don't know what they are. And I must assume that quite a few devices cannot be upgraded. So I support old and weird browsers. The code contains one externally written module (stored in the repository), so it's only a matter of the correct transpiler settings.
Ironically, what often happens is that developers configure Babel to transpile their code to some ancient version, the output is bloated (and slower to execute, since passes like regenerator have a lot of overhead), and then the website doesn't even work on the putatively supported ancient browsers because of the use of recent CSS properties or JS features that can't be polyfilled.
I've even had a case at work where a polyfill caused the program to break. iirc it was a shitty polyfill of the exponentiation operator ** that didn't handle BigInt inputs.
Also, there has been a huge amount of churn on the tooling side, and if you have a legacy app, you probably don't wanna touch whatever build program was cool that year. I've got a react app which is almost 10 years old, there has to be tons of stuff which is even older.
There is. Break compatibility for it, and whatever poor bastard that is still maintaining software that is targeting a PalmPilot is free to either pin to an older version of your library, or fork it. Yes, that's a lot of pain for him, but it makes life a little easier for everyone else.
Here's the schedule, if anyone hasn't seen it. Node 18 is EOL. Node 20 goes EOL in a bit over a month.
In other words, if you're pulling in e.g. regenerator-runtime, you're already cutting out a substantial part of the users you're describing.
So that's my cutoff.
Android Studio has a nifty little tool that tells you what percentage of users are on what versions of Android. 99.2% of users are on Android 7 or later. I predict that next year, a similar percentage of users will be on Android 8 or later.
This isn’t the desire of people to build legacy support, it’s a broken, confusing and haphazard build system built on the corpses of other broken, confusing and haphazard build systems.
All pre-signal Angular code must be compiled down to JS which replaces native async with Promise.
Why is that so? For a long time Angular's change detection worked by overriding native functions like setTimeout, addEventListener etc. to track these calls and react accordingly. `async` is a keyword, so it's not possible to override it like that.
Signals don't require such trickery and also allow to significantly decrease the surface area of change detection, but to take advantage of all of that one has to essentially rewrite the entire application.
It would take a well-respected org pushing a standard library that has clear benefits over "package shopping."
Don't confuse "one idiot who wants to support Node 0.4 in 2026" with "JS developers". Everybody hates this guy and he puts his hands into the most popular packages, introducing his junk dependencies everywhere.
https://nodejs.org/en/about/previous-releases
Here's a list of known security vulnerabilities affecting old versions of nodejs:
https://nodejs.org/en/about/eol
In my opinion, npm packages should only support maintained versions of nodejs. If you want to run an ancient, unsupported version of nodejs with security vulnerabilities, you're on your own.
> There is a user in the JavaScript community who goes around adding "backwards compatibility" to projects. They do this by adding 50 extra package dependencies to your project, which are maintained by them.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45447390
or
https://github.com/A11yance/axobject-query/pull/354
This user actively gets paid off of how many downloads their packages get, which makes sense why there are so many. As well as the attitude to change others repositories to use his packages
Nobody argues what we currently have is great and that we shouldn't look to improve it. Reducing it to "JS developers bad" is an embarrassing statement and just shows ignorance, not only of the topic at hand, but of an engineering mindset in general.
Science advances one funeral at a time applies to software with things going at a faster pace so a good software engineer needs to fake a few funerals or really be senior at 4 years to be dead by 7.
I found it to be a nice post that documents why things sometimes are bad. It didn’t feel accusatory at the developers themselves, but seemed to serve as a reasonable critique of the status quo?
Seriously what kind of business today needs to support ES3 browsers? Even banking sites should refuse to run on such old devices out of security concerns.
Upgrading eg Webpack and Babel and polyfill stacks and all that across multiple major versions is a serious mess. Lots of breaking changes all around. Much better to just ship features. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Easy enough for y’all with techie salaries, but as one of the millions of poor folks whose paychecks barely (or don’t even) pay the bills, it’d be really nice if we didn't have to junkheap our backbreakingly expensive hardware every few years just cuz y’all are anorexically obsessed with lean code, and find complex dependancies too confusing/bothersome to maintain.
Like seriously... at 50 million downloads maybe you should vendor some shit in.
Packages like this which have _7 lines of code_ should not exist! The metadata of the lockfile is bigger than the minified version of this code!
At one point in the past like 5% of create-react-app's dep list was all from one author who had built out their own little depgraph in a library they controlled. That person also included download counts on their Github page. They have since "fixed" the main entrypoint to the rats nest though, thankfully.
https://www.npmjs.com/package/has-symbols
> There is a user in the JavaScript community who goes around adding "backwards compatibility" to projects. They do this by adding 50 extra package dependencies to your project, which are maintained by them.
> 6/28/2024
Is this an ego thing or are people actually reaping benefits from this?
Anthropic recently offered free Claude to open source maintainers of repositories with over X stars or over Y downloads on npm. I suppose it is entirely possible that these download statistics translate into financial gain...
The incentives are pretty clear: more packages, more money.
The guy who wrote is even/odd was for ages using a specifically obscure method that made it slower than %2===0 because js engines were optimising that but not his arcane bullshit.
Really escapes me who it was.
As the article points out, there are competing philosophies. James does a great job of outlining his vision.
Education on this domain is positive. Encouraging naming of dissenters, or assigning intent, is not. Folks in e18e who want to advance a particular set of goals are already acting constructively to progress towards those goals.
What people are criticizing is the approach in pushing this philosophy into the ecosystem for allegedly personal gain.
The fact that this philosophy has been pushed by a small number of individuals shows this is not a widespread belief in the ecosystem. That they are getting money out of the situation demonstrates that there is probably more to the philosophy than the technical merits of it.
This is a discussion that needs to happen.
If you're working with Javascript people, this is referred to as "reinventing the wheel" or "rolling your own", or any variation of "this is against best practice".
Like I legit think that we are all imagining this cultural problem that's widespread. My claim (and I tried to do some graph theory stuff on this in the past and gave up) is that in fact we are seeing something downstream of a few "bad actors" who are going way too deep on this.
I also dislike things like webpack making every plugin an external dep but at least I vaguely understand that.
The problem is not imagined.
Just as the cloud is simply someone else's computer, a package is just someone else's reinvented wheel.
The problem is half the wheels on npm are fucking square and apparently no one in the cult of JavaScript realises it.
https://www.npmjs.com/package/is-number - and then look and see shit like is odd, is even (yes two separate packages because who can possibly remember how to get/compare the negated value of a boolean??)
Honestly for how much attention JavaScript has gotten in the last 15 years it's ridiculous how shit it's type system really is.
The only type related "improvement" was adding the class keyword because apparently the same people who don't understand "% 2" also don't understand prototypal inheritance.
Let's compromise and say that whoever is responsible for involving (javascript|electron fields) in the display of a website, should each understand their respective field.
I don't expect a physicist or even an electrical engineer or cpu designer to necessarily understand JavaScript. I don't expect a JavaScript developer to understand electron fields.
I do expect a developer who is writing JavaScript to understand JavaScript. Similarly I would expect the physicist/etc to understand how electrons work.