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Posted by decimalenough 16 hours ago

Miscellanea: The War in Iran(acoup.blog)
246 points | 346 commentspage 2
Iuz 3 hours ago|
> That said, this post is going to be unavoidably ‘political,’ because as a citizen of the United States, commenting on the war means making a statement about the President who unilaterally and illegally launched it without much public debate and without consulting Congress. And this war is dumb as hell.

Proceeds to not mention the Epstein files at all. No comment here mentions it either.

All that mess and all those deep connections that were unraveling... I’m not a US citizen, but has that already been forgotten? Do people not consider that they might be relevant in some way to this situation? Or is raising that possibility now generally viewed as a conspiracy theory?

draw_down 1 hour ago|
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znnajdla 3 hours ago||
No one seems to discuss the worst case scenario for this war. In the best/average case the world takes an economic hit. But I can think of one really big black swan event which no one seems to even consider (except Nassim Taleb). This war could trigger regime collapses all over the Arab world and put populist leaders in charge who rise to power on the basis of Gaza genocide fury. That would be catastrophic to Israel: they could face Iran from the air and Arab ground forces from multiple directions. In fact there are already signs that Egypt is moving towards that, troops are moving in to the Sinai. There is a real chance that Israel could cease to exist.
yyyk 1 hour ago||
We saw regime collapses in the Arab Spring - it's not a simple or short process, most regimes survived (either directly or via reversion). Even when a regime was overthrown, the replacement was usually not more hostile to Israel. e.g. Syria isn't more hostile than it was. Thing is there isn't all that much 'fury' since Arabs already assume the worst of Israel, while reasons for relative peace remain as is or are actually strengthened by the revolution process (e.g. economy, desire for quiet following violent revolution, new regime wanting to establish itself, etc.)
dingaling 2 hours ago|||
"That would be catastrophic to Israel: they could face Iran from the air and Arab ground forces from multiple directions. "

Israel has little to fear from Iran in the air, the IRIAF has been destroyed and ballistic missile launches have tapered off.

In terms of Arab ground armies, only Egypt and Saudi pose much of a threat; the others are small, unintegrated and inexperienced and rely heavily on Western contractor support.

And if Israel, which has the most combat experienced air force in the World, somehow did struggle to defend against those forces, they always have the Samson Option of nuclear-tipped missiles from silos and submarines.

tmnvix 1 hour ago||
> ...they always have the Samson Option of nuclear-tipped missiles from silos and submarines.

At which point Israel is over. I have no doubt about that.

tmnvix 1 hour ago|||
A not-unlikely outcome in this war is the fall of many gulf monarchies. A great outcome for some. A terrible outcome for others (such as Israel and the US).
manyaoman 2 hours ago|||
> This war could trigger regime collapses all over the Arab world and put populist leaders in charge who rise to power on the basis of Gaza genocide fury.

It would be a black swan if this didn't happen.

pphysch 2 hours ago||
This is exactly why the Saudi leadership have been quick to debunk Western propaganda about the Saudi's itching to join the war, despite Iran's strikes on GCC territory. The domestic blowback in the GCC states would be fatal to the political system.

The GCC elites there are living well, with escape plans, but the people know they are viewed as subhuman "arabs" by the Israelis, and are in line for the Gaza Method (which is currently being deployed in the West Bank and Lebanon).

rustyhancock 3 hours ago||
For all his faults and there are many. The no more wars aspect of Trump's campaign actually made me mildly optimistic.

I'm not an American so I'm not sure if the voting base actually believed him.

andrewflnr 2 hours ago|
No one who understood what Trump is believed him. You shouldn't have either.
georgemcbay 14 hours ago||
> Please understand me: the people in these countries are not important, but as a matter of national strategy, some places are more important than others.

I assume/hope this was meant to say "the people in these countries are not [un]important"? (or just "are important")

As an entirely secular person, I believe every innocent human life is important.

triceratops 4 hours ago||
I think he meant to write "not unimportant". His proofreading isn't perfect and he has typos or missing words in a lot of his work. I'm a fan of the work itself.
red_admiral 11 hours ago|||
Trying to parse the whole sentence, especially the "but" afterwards, the most reasonable explanation is that there is a "not" missing.
lmm 14 hours ago|||
He's speaking from a military, America-first perspective (which I suspect may be somewhat affected, because he is hoping to convince people who sincerely think that way). The people in these countries are not strategically important.
pas 11 hours ago||
He emphasizes relative importance, he doesn't claim that the actual people are not important.
MrDrDr 2 hours ago||
That this was so predictable, is the hardest thing to process. A friend shared this video by Jiang Xueqin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y_hbz6loEo&t=2s I find this guys hard to take seriously, his logic is erratic and often just absent. But his prediction has been frighteningly spot on regarding Iran. Towards the end he predicts American boots on the ground - and them turning into American hostages. I found that last part truly unbelievable until I heard Trump will have moved 3000 marines to the region by Friday.
_DeadFred_ 2 hours ago||
This guy is a weirdo that believes Jesuit illuminati run the world (listen to the end of his Breaking Points interview), his qualification is a BA in English, he teaches at the high school level, and holds discussions with manosphere figures like Sneako. Not sure I'd elevate what he says just because he has a good online presence and really don't understand why he would be at the time of this post in the top comment in this discussion.
probably_wrong 1 hour ago||
I think you are missing the parent comment's point.

The point is not "this guy is a genius" but rather "this war was so predictable, even this weird guy could pinpoint with frightening accuracy how this war would happen two years before it started".

MrDrDr 2 hours ago||
N.B. The video is from May 2004 (during the Biden administration)
yanhangyhy 14 hours ago||
The reason for the Iran war is very simple: Israel’s instigation, a potential strike against China, and Trump’s political immaturity.
Synaesthesia 14 hours ago||
The purpose of the war is to destroy the Axis of Resistance, Iran, Hezbollah and its allies, the only force standing in the way of US/Israeli hegemony in the region.
geraneum 13 hours ago|||
That’s a purely ideological way of looking at the situation which IMO is not sufficient. As the article states, this war was not unprovoked either, regardless of whether the provocations warrant such a response. Iran is seeking its own hegemony. Now, this does not negate your point on the hegemonic approach of US in the region. I think this war can be viewed as a power struggle between a regional and global power that’s developing into a struggle dominance and survival.

edit: typo

mrexcess 4 hours ago|||
>As the article states, this war was not unprovoked either

Using the same extraordinarily broad definition of "provocation" required here, can you name a single war in history that was unprovoked? And if not, haven't we just neutralized all meaning from the phrase "provoked war" with our overly broad definition of "provocation"?

lyu07282 1 hour ago||
What you see here is the limits of liberal discourse on war, it's always 'here are the reasons why the war is justified' now let me explain why i'm against the war. Then discourse devolves into 'what is war even'? Believe in something, anything, dear god.
roenxi 10 hours ago|||
Is anyone going to mention what these provocations are? I've yet to figure it out after 6-12 months. Pretty much everything going on seems to involve the Israelis aggressively expanding their borders or viciously attacking anyone who might oppose their expansion. I've lost count of the number of negotiators they've killed.

Trump has averaged something like 1 bombing run on Iranian leadership ever 2 years. Iranian provocations must be quite effective at making him see red.

geraneum 9 hours ago|||
> Is anyone going to mention what these provocations are?

Sure, it’s not hard to find. These started long before Trump. You should look beyond the last few months’ news cycles. Iranian government’s issues with Israel are of ideological nature (according to the regime) and their open support (financially and militarily) of a part of Palestinian resistance and Hezbollah. Iran has been active at Israel’s borders for years. Their heavy involvement (including sending troops) in Syria’s civil war is another one to name. All of these are the ones that Iran openly admits to. You can’t explain these away with Israel’s expansionist tendencies because that’s not been a threat to Iran. No serious analyst believes that Israel wants/can to expand into even Iraq, let alone Iran!

The hostilities towards US and vice versa are a whole different topic.

Now to be clear I’m not siding with Israel on this and not saying that caring for Palestinians is not right, just answering your question and naming a few examples. Now, it’s all happened during many decades and not sure if it matters anymore who started it because it’s become a total shit show that is very hard to reconcile.

You might find it surprising that during Iran-Iraq war, Israel was the only country in the region who helped Iran against Iraq (which had the backing of the Arab countries including Palestinians).

tmnvix 1 hour ago|||
> Iranian government’s issues with Israel are of ideological nature (according to the regime)

Opposition to the oppression of Palestinians is not ideological.

roenxi 8 hours ago|||
Would it be fair to characterise these provocations as all involving Iran providing resistance to Israel aggressively expanding their borders? Because these cases seem to have a tendency to Israel controlling more land at the end of the day. It looks like a pretty classic situation where an aggressive power builds up in a series of "defensive" expansions.

> Iranian government’s issues with Israel are of ideological nature

I think they're just good at threat assessment. There seem to be a lot of Iranians dying of Sudden Acute Missile Disease this month. Frankly I'm struggling to see what aspect of their actions aren't just common sense over the last decade, except for their charmingly simplicity in that they didn't make a break for a nuclear bomb when they first got within a year or two of being able to develop one. Israel and their supporters have done a very bad job of offering an explanation of why the repeated hits were justified or helpful.

klipt 4 hours ago|||
Israel withdrew fully from Lebanon in 2000, and this was certified by the UN, yet Hezbollah kept attacking them anyway.

If Hezbollah offered Israel a choice between: peace with Hezbollah OR occupy land in Lebanon, I think Israel would rationally choose peace.

But Hezbollah has never offered this. Their stated goal is complete destruction of Israel.

So if the options are: Hezbollah shoots at you from right across the border OR you occupy a buffer zone and Hezbollah still shoots at you but from further away:

Isn't it perfectly rational to choose the buffer zone?

watwut 46 minutes ago||
Israel just communited genocide in one place and displaced millions in two others.

It "ordered" wast places full of people to lead, destroyed bridges, created shoot at will area on other side and is getting ready to move settlers there.

Isreal is not defending itself. It is cleansing and expanding, feeling entitled to kill at will everyone not them.

geraneum 6 hours ago||||
> Would it be fair to characterise these provocations as all involving Iran providing resistance to Israel aggressively expanding its borders?

Considering the results of this war so far and the one before, as well as Iran's military strategy, it doesn't seem plausible to think Iran sees (or ever saw) Israel as a threat to its borders' integrity. This may be the basis for Iran's strategy in the region in some version of the future, but to extend it to what they've done in the past would be hindsight bias.

IMO, the regime is not as much worried about Israel as it is about the US. Just compare the number of missiles and drones they shot at Gulf countries vs Israel.

But consider that Israel, rightfully or not, can make similar claims, which actually conform to the Iranian regime's long-stated goal of "destruction of Israel".

> Frankly, I'm struggling to see what aspect of their actions isn’t just common sense over the last decade.

That’s because it didn’t all start in the last decade. As you get closer to “present” in this timeline, it looks more like a one-sided affair. This is similar to the view which sees the whole Israel-Palestine issue only from October 7th onwards.

> Israel and their supporters have done a very bad job of offering an explanation of why the repeated hits were justified or helpful.

True, I’m also not sure if this is going to turn out as they wish it did. Although the jury's still out, but as the article points out, it seems unlikely.

edit: type

hersko 4 hours ago|||
You keep saying Israel is aggressively expanding its borders like its some WW2 era land-grab which is ridiculous.

Israel has given back more contiguous land captured during (defensive) wars its won than probably any other country in history.

Pretending the current conflict is because Israel randomly wants to take over it's neighbors is silly.

3842056935870 4 hours ago|||
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ardit33 13 hours ago|||
It is to benefit Israel (so it can anex more territory in Lebanon), and it has no benefit to the US. The US had already a deal with Iran, which didn't threat its own interests directly. It is like leave a snake alone, but once you step into it, it will bite you.

This war is only to benefit Israel, and right now indirectly Russia (due to the rising prices). Basically, the US is the main loser/sucker in this war, and we are all poorer for doing it.

Synaesthesia 12 hours ago||
Israel is an arm of the US empire. It's a very useful ally of the US in the region. And when I talk about the US here I mean ruling elites.

The US is doing just fine from this war. The US is an oil and gas producer, the largest in the world. So they benefit from rising prices.

I'd say the biggest losers are countries like Europe, and neutral oil importing countries around the world.

decimalenough 11 hours ago||
The oil and gas producers benefit from higher prices, in the same way that glaziers benefit from broken windows. Everybody else loses though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

y-c-o-m-b 3 hours ago|||
> a potential strike against China

I think this is understated in every analysis I've seen. I would bet good money this was part of the main selling point for the US. Just type in "China Oil" into any search engine or even filter the search to 2023 and earlier. China's oil consumption was surging significantly and they get a huge chunk of their oil through the Strait. It wasn't until 2024 I believe that they started reducing their dependence on oil; which I think suggests that they saw the writing on the wall and were worried about this exact scenario. China is America's number one adversary. If we're making large global moves, there's a high chance it's a strategic move against China.

ritonlajoie 42 minutes ago|||
I do agree. China has only 3 overseas military bases, and only 1 official one, guess where is it ? Djibouti, overseeing the strait of Bab-el-Mandeb in the Red Sea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_oversea...

george916a 14 hours ago||
[flagged]
GolfPopper 14 hours ago|||
>on the verge of obtaining nuclear weapons

I've been hearing that line, from the same person for thirty years:

https://www.news18.com/world/weeks-away-by-next-spring-video...

energy123 14 hours ago||
[flagged]
Hikikomori 11 hours ago||
Those people with a straight face was all US intelligence agencies and their leaders that also testified to congress as Trump ripped up the deal because Obama did it. Are you saying that all US intelligence agency were wrong?
kenjinp 14 hours ago||||
This comment is simply not true from a US national interest perspective. The article explains why this was not done earlier.
unmole 14 hours ago||||
> on the verge of obtaining nuclear weapons.

WMD 2.0 The Electric Boogaloo.

socraticnoise 14 hours ago||||
Isn't it interesting that the country that takes the nuclear threat most seriously and tries to prevent it is also the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons?
defrost 14 hours ago||
Russia? France? The UK? India? Pakistan? Israel? China?

There are many countries that have used nuclear weapons.

If you're talking about the USofA they didn't try that hard at preventing Iran from enriching - they tore up a perfectly good and well functioning monitoring agreement at the start of Trump's first term.

AnimalMuppet 8 hours ago|||
Those countries have tested nuclear weapons. Only the US has used them.
aa-jv 9 hours ago|||
The USA is the only nation so far which has committed mass murder with nuclear weapons. It seems to want to reserve itself that exclusive right.
Starman_Jones 7 hours ago||
As an American, i can say that, yes, I want us to be the only country to ever have used nuclear weapons. I don't think that should be a controversial opinion.
aa-jv 6 hours ago||
As a non-American, I want Americans to quit using their warrior narcissism to ruin the world. I'd like to see you disarmed, personally - your regime is out of control and your nation is in the grips of a psychotic nationalist mental illness episode. Your nation should definitely not have nukes.
csb6 13 hours ago||||
There is no evidence Iran has an active nuclear weapons program or has had one since the early 2000s, which even the article's author seems not to know. They have enriched uranium that could be further processed and used to make weapons, but there is no evidence they are doing so or have the capability to do so (and no, Israeli government/military sources are not reliable. They have every interest to lie about Iran having/nearly having nuclear weapons)
Hikikomori 14 hours ago|||
When Trump left the agreement Obama made with Iran all US intelligence agencies agreed that Iran was not working on a bomb. Netanyahu has screeched about Irans destruction for 40 years, he was there to lie to congress about WMDs in Iraq. This conflict is engineered.
redwood 3 hours ago||
The biggest beneficiary of this whole thing will be the shift to renewable energy. I am surprised to see the greens up in arms about it all.
gherkinnn 3 hours ago||
The ability of a state to run on energy pulled out of thin air is an obvious strategic benefit.

Surely the resources required to build and maintain solar panels, turbines, dams, and nuclear reactors are logistically more stable than oil has proven to be.

crazygringo 3 hours ago|||
The ends don't necessarily justify the means. And it might just as well be a shift to nuclear energy instead, which greens are traditionally against.
foobarian 3 hours ago||
I was just thinking how much this situation benefits China and their solar power industry.
redwood 4 hours ago||
Amazing to me how impatient people are. It was six to seven months between the 12 day war in June and the mass uprising seen in December/January which was ruthlessly crushed. It will likely be a while between the end of this war and the next mass uprising. But every uprising that happens against a massively weakened regime means there's more chance of real change. Totalitarian regimes fall in ways that are hard to predict, but gradually and then suddenly.
winton 2 hours ago|
Crazy how impatient people are while millions of people suffer, thousands die, and prices go up around the planet.
beloch 13 hours ago||
A few thoughts.

1. The straight of Hormuz is crazy because of the sheer amount of options Iran has to threaten shipping. It's so narrow that they can even hit ships with artillery fire. No need for missiles or drones at all! Lobbing kinetic shells may sound primitive, but anti-missile defences are designed to deal with large projectiles with minutes or hours of warning, not shell-sized projectiles that hit within seconds. If a U.S. war-ship enters the straight, they could be struck by fire from artillery that's been concealed for decades before they know they're under fire. It's also worth noting that Shahad drones have a larger range than the size of Iran, and they're hidden all over the country. Any ship transiting Hormuz or any ground force trying to land in Iran could face drone attack from anywhere in Iran, or all of it simultaneously. A few drones are easy to intercept, but give Iran a juicy enough target and they could make the decision to simply overwhelm it. Drones are a heavily parallel capability.

2. There are only a couple of lanes deep enough for large ships in the straight. So far, no ships have been sunk outright, and that's probably a deliberate choice on Iran's part. If they sink a ship at the right spot, the straight could become barricaded. Clearing that barricade under threat of fire would be a far worse pickle than what we're seeing now.

3. The critical question to ask is, "How does the U.S. end this?" Just continuing to bomb Iran is phenomenally expensive and likely won't accomplish much. This is a regime that has been preparing for an American invasion since they overthrew the CIA-installed Shah 47 years ago. They probably never seriously expected to win an air-war against the U.S. and have obviously planned for an asymmetric conflict. The U.S. is not going to win this one without phenomenal amounts of blood, treasure, and will, but all of these are in short supply. A ground invasion of Iran would likely be worse than Afghanistan, Iraq, and Vietnam rolled into one. The U.S. can't win this war because they simply can't pay the price. Unfortunately, the straight of Hormuz gives Iran the ability to prevent Trump from simply TACO'ing out and proceeding to invade Cuba. Iran could keep the straight closed even after the U.S. withdraws their forces, and likely will to make sure everybody knows they can control the world economy at will. They're going to expect a peace settlement, and it won't be cheap.

4. This conflict lights a fire under the behinds of all nascent nuclear states. Iran would not have been invaded if they'd managed to build nuclear weapons. Even Iran is more likely to develop nuclear weapons now. Contrary to what some think, Iran isn't going to give up their enriched uranium and end their program just because the U.S. promises not to attack them again. Something like the JCPOA only works if some level of trust is possible, but Trump personally burned that. The best the U.S. is likely to get in negotiations is a superficial promise not to develop nuclear weapons, backed up by absolutely nothing. If the U.S. decides to end the program by force, the result will also be uncertain. Say the U.S. locates and extracts Iran's HEU from those underground facilities. How will they ever be certain they got it all without occupying the whole country?

citrin_ru 4 hours ago||
> It's so narrow that they can even hit ships with artillery fire.

I'm not a military export but it doesn't look like a very good option. To get accurate targeting information Iran will have to use radars. Radars can be detected and destroyed given that the US has air dominance. Also as soon as artillery will start to fire their position will be calculated by counter-battery radars (and they will be destroyed again thanks to air dominance).

So drones (both UAV and unmanned USV) are likely more viable options for Iran.

pjc50 3 hours ago|||
During daytime, a 24 mile artillery hit on a ship the size and speed of an oil tanker is entirely within the capability of WW2-era naval gunnery by optics alone. Provided they have time for a few ranging salvoes.

(HMS Warspite, a WW1 era ship, managed a 24km hit on another moving ship!)

nprz 3 hours ago|||
OP forgot to mention just mining the strait, which is also an option.
gherkinnn 3 hours ago|||
> This conflict lights a fire under the behinds of all nascent nuclear states. Iran would not have been invaded if they'd managed to build nuclear weapons.

Replace "Iran" with "Ukraine", the difference being that the latter gave them away.

marcosdumay 3 hours ago|||
> If they sink a ship at the right spot, the straight could become barricaded.

Just a minor point, but, the shipping routes are thin, but they are not that thin. It would take several ships to do that.

> Unfortunately, the straight of Hormuz gives Iran the ability to prevent Trump from simply TACO'ing out and proceeding to invade Cuba.

Iran already proposed a soft-victory condition that Trump could use to TACO-out. He can just claim it's Europe problem, so Europe deal with the toll.

It's Israel that won't allow TACO.

ardit33 12 hours ago|||
Agreed on your points. This conflict, just validated the North Korea style of strategy to all regimes out there. It does the opposite of what it is intended.

I hope things do get de-escalated soon, as this is not good for any party (apart Israel and Russia, which are the main gainers of all this mess).

pas 10 hours ago||
But it didn't really. Iran is poorer than it was before, even more of a problem than it was before. NK has two very special advantages (Seoul is within artillery range, and it is literally in the backyard of one or two relevant superpowers over the decades) whereas Tehran's "force projection" is mostly through proxies and affecting global commodity trade.

Without NK's hard deterrence (and without being next door to its allies) Tehran is an easy target up until the last second. And even then what's going to happen if they detonate a nuclear bomb? Everyone will sit back and let them build as many more as they feel?

surgical_fire 10 hours ago||
> Iran is poorer than it was before, even more of a problem than it was before.

Iran seemingly is coming out of this mess stronger than it was before.

The regime remains unchanged, and is likely less willing to make concessions now. Hell, even sanctions on it being able to sell oil have been lifted, which is a boon to their economy.

They are in effective control of the strait, and justified in exercising it now. Yeah, other gulf countries may try to circumvent it with pipelines and whatnot, depending on how poorly they come out of this war - and it is not like you create a pipeline in a few days. Those are big engineering projects.

If I were a betting man, which I am not, I think they will just resume their nuclear weapons program unchallenged after this, and will likely achieve it. It is clear that no one can stop them doing so.

And frankly, they should. Every country that can have nuclear weapons should develop them, that much is very clear, as the last decade taught everyone.

hersko 4 hours ago|||
> Iran seemingly is coming out of this mess stronger than it was before.

This is a wild take. Their top leaders and generals have been killed, they have no control over their own airspace, have their military and civilian infrastructure completely at the mercy of their enemies, and have no navy/airforce any more.

Oh, and their currency collapsed.

But other than that they are doing great.

surgical_fire 4 hours ago||
Yeah, and for some reason this place that has "military and civilian infrastructure" completely at the mercy of their enemies is right now exercising full control of one extremely important sea trade route, and is wreaking havoc on all gulf states allied to the US, and is successfully hitting targets on Israel.

Facts have this annoying tendency of getting in the way of propaganda.

hersko 3 hours ago||
Explain how they are better off than when the war started.
surgical_fire 2 hours ago||
Since you seemingly have trouble reading text, I'll try to condense it in some bullet points.

Unfortunately HN has no crayon functionality:

1. Regime still in power, legitimized by the defense against foreign agressors.

2. Internal unrest loses steam.

3. Effective control of the strait of Hormuz, being able to, for example, dictate who is allowed to pass through and/or demand tolls for safe passage.

4. Weakening of the US presence in the Gulf countries. In particular the destruction of radar systems. Those things are expensive.

5. Lifting of sanctions on Iranian oil, at a time where the resource is very expensive.

6. Likely will be able to pursue its nuclear ambitions undeterred.

hersko 56 minutes ago||
1) What defense? They have been punching back but have been unable to stop enemy strikes. Do you understand what the word "defense" means?

2) That happened before the war, and the protesters have been told to hold off for now. Its completely irrelevant to this war.

3) They control it for now. We'll see how long they can continue threatening global trade. My money is not for long. [1]

4) Attacking radar systems is not weakening the US presence in gulf countries. What they have succeeded in doing is attacking almost every gulf country souring relations.

5) This makes no difference since they were selling to russia and china regardless

6) This makes no sense, as they had operational Nuclear facilities up until the moment Israel/US blew them up. There is no reason to think we wouldn't do it again.

[1] https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/bahrain-uae-join-20-oth...

pas 8 hours ago|||
Obviously the current US Mobministration is almost impervious to shame, but of course they still have their own egoistic expectations to grapple with.

They are not afraid to spend money (and blood) on a problem, even if it turns out to be bigger than expected. How much? We'll see.

The neighbors are motivated to not live next to one more nuclear state. We'll see how much.

surgical_fire 5 hours ago||
> They are not afraid to spend money (and blood) on a problem, even if it turns out to be bigger than expected. How much? We'll see.

I agree, but it is unclear if "more money" is the answer here. Iran is a much tougher nut to crack than Afghanistan. Afghanistan is barely a country. Iran is an actual, functioning country, with a territory that is geographically very defensible. And on top of that, they have actually been preparing for this for decades.

The ironic bit is that I thought the Iranian regime was on an irreversible decline, as the unrest amongst the population was growing in recent years.

The analysis I have read point out that this attack actually further legitimizes the regime and takes steam away from internal unrest, especially if Iran comes out on top.

Every authoritarian government needs an enemy. The US-Israel axis provided a very real, tangible one.

pas 5 hours ago||
> The analysis I have read point out that this attack actually further legitimizes the regime and takes steam away from internal unrest, especially if Iran comes out on top.

Yes. Unfortunately both things can be true (irreversible decline) and solidified regime due to any external intervention.

Gibbon1 10 hours ago|||
Counter point to 4. The Israeli's wouldn't be trying to kill the Iranian leaders if they hadn't spent the last 40 years waging a proxy war against Israel.
pas 10 hours ago||
Tehran "spent" 2T USD on the nuclear weapons program, which they could have spent on water desalination for example.

Yes having the deterrent is strategically beneficial, but working toward it paints a huge target on your back, while you need to pay for development, endure sanctions, etc.

Any state considering such weapons development already knows this. So this war is not new information.

And it's far from over yet.

Iran could very well end up cut off from the strait as rival gulf states build pipelines, rail, and drone defenses. (Sure this kind of long term thinking is not characteristic of the actors involved, but politics change easier around Iran than inside it.)

user_7832 9 hours ago||
> Tehran "spent" 2T USD on the nuclear weapons program, which they could have spent on water desalination for example.

(Side note: That... seems like a very high figure to me?) For comparison the US spent close to $1 trillion in 2024 on the military. It could have saved lives and spent that money on healthcare. But that's not how govts work. Iran didn't get a drawstring bag with 2T in it and chose to throw it all on nukes.

Additionally, you're trying to bring a (totally valid tbf) logical argument ("Desalination is critical and an excellent place to spend money that's not going into saving lives") to a government that behaves like a cornered wild animal. It will act to save itself first, even if attacking the aggressor hurts itself too in the process.

pas 8 hours ago||
> It will act to save itself first, even if attacking the aggressor hurts itself too in the process.

Of course, but as we see simply focusing on ground forces, drones, and anti-air defenses would be strictly better. (Because they wouldn't be this sanctioned, and they could even have a civilian nuclear energy program too.)

> 2T USD

It's a number coming from an Iranian trade official.

I heard it in this video: https://youtu.be/OJAcvqmWuv4?t=1084 and unfortunately there's no source cited, but I think it's this one: "As former Iranian diplomat Qasem Mohebali admitted on May 20, 2025, “uranium enrichment has cost the country close to two trillion dollars” and imposed massive sanctions yet continues largely as a matter of national pride rather than economic logic."

https://www.ncr-iran.org/en/news/nuclear/iaea-report-and-geo...

see also https://freeiransn.com/the-two-trillion-dollar-drain-irans-m...

nearbuy 1 hour ago||
It can't be 2T USD. That's about 60 times the cost of the Manhattan project in today's dollars. It could maybe be 2T Iranian rials.
wecwecwe 13 hours ago|
Bret mocks the JCPOA, but the west found a way to work with the Kingdom of Consanguinity and Public Executions. What gives?
kybernetikos 12 hours ago||
He wasn't particularly scathing about it - in the article it's presented as a decent solution to a difficult problem, just that in his opinion too much was paid for it - but that being so it should have stayed in place.
orwin 8 hours ago||
(are you talking about Qatar or Saudi Arabia?)
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