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Posted by decimalenough 19 hours ago

Miscellanea: The War in Iran(acoup.blog)
334 points | 473 commentspage 4
redwood 7 hours ago|
Amazing to me how impatient people are. It was six to seven months between the 12 day war in June and the mass uprising seen in December/January which was ruthlessly crushed. It will likely be a while between the end of this war and the next mass uprising. But every uprising that happens against a massively weakened regime means there's more chance of real change. Totalitarian regimes fall in ways that are hard to predict, but gradually and then suddenly.
winton 6 hours ago|
Crazy how impatient people are while millions of people suffer, thousands die, and prices go up around the planet.
redwood 7 hours ago||
The biggest beneficiary of this whole thing will be the shift to renewable energy. I am surprised to see the greens up in arms about it all.
gherkinnn 6 hours ago||
The ability of a state to run on energy pulled out of thin air is an obvious strategic benefit.

Surely the resources required to build and maintain solar panels, turbines, dams, and nuclear reactors are logistically more stable than oil has proven to be.

crazygringo 6 hours ago|||
The ends don't necessarily justify the means. And it might just as well be a shift to nuclear energy instead, which greens are traditionally against.
foobarian 7 hours ago||
I was just thinking how much this situation benefits China and their solar power industry.
wecwecwe 17 hours ago||
Bret mocks the JCPOA, but the west found a way to work with the Kingdom of Consanguinity and Public Executions. What gives?
kybernetikos 15 hours ago||
He wasn't particularly scathing about it - in the article it's presented as a decent solution to a difficult problem, just that in his opinion too much was paid for it - but that being so it should have stayed in place.
orwin 11 hours ago||
(are you talking about Qatar or Saudi Arabia?)
solatic 11 hours ago||
Author seems to not care about the prospect of the Iranian regime developing nuclear weapons, putting those weapons into the hands of its terrorist proxies, and sitting back while those proxies turn Western Europe and Palestine into radioactive wastelands (yes, Palestine, because it is not possible to restrict the fallout to just Tel Aviv, and the regime has shown itself to be far more anti-Israel than pro-Palestinian, the prospect of Palestine being a radioactive wasteland for a century is an acceptable price for destroying Israel). The US and the rest of the West should, apparently, just accept this as inevitable historical destiny, because $5/gallon gasoline or putting boots on the ground are apparently so utterly reprehensible.

Author's analysis, as critical as he is of American presidents breaking their promises, is completely absent of analysis of what would happen if American presidents broke their promises to never allow Iran to develop a nuclear weapon. Never mind that JCPOA had a sunset clause that would allow Iran to resume nuclear enrichment to weapons-grade after the sunset clause.

The author's analysis pretty blatantly exposes reality: the West is losing because it does not have the political stomach to win. Instead of deciding that maybe society should try to develop that political stomach, instead of paying attention to a Trump who got elected in large part on mantras about how America was losing and it needed to start winning, no, Author says this was all a horrible idea and implicitly we should just sit back while our enemies progress along the road of putting nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists.

ozgrakkurt 7 hours ago||
What makes you think they will give nuclear weapons to terrorists or use those weapons at all?

This does not happen even in the most insane examples like North Korea.

The more likely outcome would be that they would be able to avoid getting their schools/hospitals etc. bombed.

In your mind US should just nuke iran so there is regime change? Can you calculate how this would play out after that happens?

solatic 6 hours ago||
> What makes you think they will give nuclear weapons to terrorists or use those weapons at all?

a. They have armed and financed their terrorist proxies (Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, and others), who used those arms and capital to commit acts of terrorism against their regime enemies (the US and Israel).

b. Witkoff literally offered them free nuclear fuel forever for civilian purposes and they turned him down, bragging that they had enough highly enriched nuclear fuel already for nuclear weapons

c. I can put 2 and 2 together

In what universe does having nuclear weapons protect you from getting schools and hospitals bombed? Israel very likely has nuclear weapons, but Israeli schools and hospitals are getting bombed by Iranian missiles. So what?

ozgrakkurt 3 hours ago||
Israel can't just be bombing Iran and then nuking them when Iran retalliates by bombing them back. Because this will be too much bad PR even for Israel as the vast majority of people will find evaporating people indiscriminately is unacceptable.

With all this considered I think it is clear why Iran is able to bomb Israel back and Israel can't just nuke them.

I think the points you made about why Iran would give nuclear weapons to terrorists make no sense. Because Iran would, presumably, get obliterated when those terrorists use those weapons on any country.

As far as I know, full-on invasion of a country that has nuclear weapons has never occured in history so far. So Iran having nuclear weapons in a defensive capacity is obviously good for them. In fact all countries having nuclear weapons in middle east might have made it more peaceful but would have been obviously terrible for Israel/USA

stefan_ 2 hours ago|||
You seem to suffer from selective memory, your president declared Irans nuclear program "totally, totally destroyed" and your post "fake news". That was half a year ago. What necessitated another obviously useless strategic air campaign?

Its ironic it's not even discussed anymore in the US. A year in and you can't find a political post on HN, it's all blackholed - we've gone past "I didn't vote for him" straight to posts like this from alternative reality where he doesn't exist, doesn't say or do things.

bryanlarsen 11 hours ago|||
Donald Trump obviously doesn't care either, because every action he has taken during his two terms has increased the risk of Iran developing nuclear weapons.

JCPOA was highly flawed, but it was a lot better than nothing, which is what Trump traded it for.

If Trump was serious about stopping Iran's nuclear program, he would have made taking Isfahan a top priority of the initial strikes.

solatic 10 hours ago|||
People repeat themselves saying "JCPOA was highly flawed, but it was better than nothing", as if JCPOA would have prevented Iran from getting nuclear weapons. It would not - it only delayed Iran getting nuclear weapons, and so by that line of thinking, it only delayed the onset of war.

Delaying the onset of war is not worthless, but it is not the same as arguing that war could have been avoided, which is what people who roll out that claim are really trying to argue. It's only true in a universe where Iran would have collapsed from within before the expiration of the sunset clause, and that clearly was not going to happen.

bryanlarsen 10 hours ago||
> as if JCPOA would have prevented Iran from getting nuclear weapons

"highly flawed" implies that it's not very good at its primary goal

> it only delayed Iran getting nuclear weapons

That sounds better than no delay

bitcurious 6 hours ago||
> That sounds better than no delay

That depends on what Iran does in the meantime, does it not? If Iran effectively turned their missile program into a true deterrent then negotiated delay is worse, because it would remove the ability to stunt the development through military means. Which is very much the argument being made for the “why now” of this war.

spwa4 11 hours ago|||
That doesn't change in the least the argument the OP made. The UN's IAEA has declared that Iran deceived them, didn't follow the agreements, and even accused them of violating the agreements with the intent to build a bomb.

As to Trump's motivations, they don't change this calculus. Iran intended to nuke their neighbors, and Israel, not just before Trump came to power but literally before the first Bush became president. And the full situation is even worse: right after the mullah's came to power in a leftist revolution in 1979, they begged for US and Israel's help to stop Saddam Hussein from nuking them. They got that help ... and then figured that nukes are a great idea.

Here's what the mullahs are most afraid of btw. The biggest threat to their power, the biggest problem for their central-London villas:

https://x.com/NarimanGharib/status/2036761330359615897

This local opposition to them has systematically worsened over time, btw. So I wouldn't put it past the mullahs to nuke Iran itself, eventually. It also means that Iran's islamic regime is threatening everyone, for the simple reason that if they make a single concession loosening their grip on Iran, they'll be lynched, one by one, in the streets, by people they went to school with. That is how much Iran's regime is "winning".

bryanlarsen 10 hours ago|||
You, me, solatic and acoup probably all agree that a nuclear weapon in Iranian hands is a huge danger.

But it's only Donald Trump that has used that as an excuse to make that danger greater.

And acoup has a great counter-point to your tweet in the article.

The Soviet Union dealt with massive internal protest quite successfully for pretty much every single one of its 70 years of existence. The Soviet Union only fell when insiders took it down.

Iran appears to be in absolutely no danger of that happening.

Hikikomori 8 hours ago|||
JCPOA was followed with minor discrepancies like having less than 1 ton too much heavy water. US intelligence agencies agreed that Iran was not working on a bomb as US left JCPOA, as they testified to in congress.
spwa4 6 hours ago||
Well, here is the final UN report, from the horses mouth so to speak:

https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/25/06/gov2025-25.pd...

(they preliminarily reported the same stance even in 2024, before any attacks)

TLDR: Iran, despite having signed a treaty allowing access, is hiding highly enriched uranium, enough to build 9, maybe 10 nuclear devices. It is also not complying with its other obligations under the NPT treaty.

And then Iran responded to this ... by boasting of making nuclear weapons grade uranium to make bombs, to American diplomats:

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/iran-eastern-stat...

Now I get that American diplomacy is a shitshow since ... a certain event. However, I fail to come up with a worse attitude that Iran could have had at the time. They are openly boasting of having "the divine right" to enriched uranium that can only be used for bombs in negotiations ...

I also get that Americans (and everyone else, for that matter) feel that it's entirely unfair that they have to care about nuclear weapons in Iran. But if nobody does ... Iran's leaders have made it clear that as soon as they have the weapons, nuclear war starts. What I find baffling is that nobody cares ...

Of course, now it turns out that UAE and Saudi Arabia have since been SCREAMING at the US to do something. But the people it will affect the most are of course in Europe and Asia (everyone except Russia, Norway and Ukraine), who are effectively going to see yet another 3-4% tariff, except this one applies even on goods they produce themselves, for themselves. The EU is burning massive amounts of political goodwill trying to get a few percent savings, and now they'll have to do tell their people they're saving at least double that, in a few months time, with no real warning.

Hikikomori 5 hours ago||
They started again in 2021, years after Trump left the JCPOA and imposed heavy sanctions. You see how one thing might lead to another? Its almost like someone wants this to happen.
spwa4 4 hours ago||
I don't really care what you say, this is the IRGC, who massacred 50 people at Brussels airport for example. If they feel they are unfairly treated in any way, they can always report to the Belgian authorities, who I'm sure will provide a small windowless room with free meals.

And until they do that, and until they're let out again, no amount of arguments will ever make me agree that it's just not fair. In fact, if everyone even remotely involved with them gets shot THAT I will call fairness.

Hikikomori 3 hours ago||
Yeah they should. Netanyahu and Israels leaders should report to the ICJ.

You don't really care because you don't have a valid argument. Fact is Iran was complying with JCPOA, as all US intelligence agencies agreed on. It was working. But it had one flaw, Obama signed it and the orange baby couldn't deal with that, and likely Israel/Netanyahu influencing Trump back then as well as they were opposing the deal from the start.

Now I don't think Iran should have nuclear weapons, but lets be fair here, they followed the deal, but still got sanctions put on them as if they were building a bomb, why not do it then? If we're to judge them by what politicians, generals or religious zealots has said in the past, then look no further than the US and what they thought about using nukes post ww2, I would argue they were much much worse no matter what Iran has said.

spwa4 3 hours ago||
Like I said you cannot make a reasonable argument that Iran respected international treaties and is now being treated unfairly. That's utterly and completely ridiculous, regardless of the specific treaty.

Iran's government organizes massacres, inside and outside of Iran. Could you illuminate further to me which treaties that little practice follows and how unfair it is it causes bad things to happen to them?

Hikikomori 2 hours ago||
>>Like I said you cannot make a reasonable argument that Iran respected international treaties

> Iran was complying with JCPOA, as all US intelligence agencies agreed on.

??? I'm not even the one making the argument.

kdheiwns 6 hours ago||
In all my years, I've never seen Iran care one bit about influencing or bothering any country outside of its sphere of influence. But I've seen Iran be antagonized nonstop and respond accordingly.

As an American who lives abroad and travels around the world, I've never had the slightest worry about "oh man what if Iran does something?" But I've had to adjust flight and travel plans several times, I've had cost of living surge, I've witness chaos causing terrorist splinter groups that attack countries around the world because Israel and America have started some stupid conflict and said "we had no choice bro we had to attack them because in 80 years they would've made a bomb that might've killed a civilian bro you have to trust me bro." And frankly, I'm done even taking those arguments in good faith. I simply refuse. The mess these two countries cause has caused far more death than even if Iran had a nuke, ten nukes, or one thousand nukes.

bitcurious 6 hours ago|||
> I've never seen Iran care one bit about influencing or bothering any country outside of its sphere of influence.

There’s this weird attitude I see where people claim “realpolitik” to give other nations colonial rights to their neighbors while denying the same to America. If you buy into “spheres of influence” as a concept it’s time to accept that the US, as the world’s preeminent military and economic power, has a sphere of influence that spans the globe.

solatic 6 hours ago|||
> I've never seen Iran care one bit about influencing or bothering any country outside of its sphere of influence

Its sphere of influence includes Israel, Gaza (Hamas), Yemen (Houthis), Iraq (various Shia splinter groups), and Lebanon (where Hezbollah refuses to accept the sovereignty of the Lebanese government). You are being willfully ignorant.

kdheiwns 6 hours ago||
Nope, not ignorant. I know that. And I don't care one bit if Iran dominates that area. I'm at a point where I'd prefer it because it's absolutely better than the mess the first country on that list causes, with hacking, election interference, terrorism, war, and ethnic cleansing to name a few. I think a growing number of people globally are sick of it.

And funny you mention Lebanon. Iran isn't the country bombing Lebanon every few years or seizing land there either. But right now another country is invading and seizing land and not accepting the sovereignty of the Lebanese government. [1] Always funny how accusations in 2026 really just are a way of confessing.

[1] https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/defense-news/article-89105...

totierne2 17 hours ago||
Next country to invade is monopoly/risk for 10 year olds inside 70 year old presidents.
Iuz 6 hours ago||
> That said, this post is going to be unavoidably ‘political,’ because as a citizen of the United States, commenting on the war means making a statement about the President who unilaterally and illegally launched it without much public debate and without consulting Congress. And this war is dumb as hell.

Proceeds to not mention the Epstein files at all. No comment here mentions it either.

All that mess and all those deep connections that were unraveling... I’m not a US citizen, but has that already been forgotten? Do people not consider that they might be relevant in some way to this situation? Or is raising that possibility now generally viewed as a conspiracy theory?

draw_down 4 hours ago|
[dead]
amarant 6 hours ago||
There are a few passages in there that in isolation are not very notable, but taken together are kind of interesting:

>But countries do not go to war simply to have a war – well, stupid fascist countries do, which is part of why they tend to be quite bad at war – they go to war to achieve specific goals and end-states.

>Again, it is not a ‘gain’ in war simply to bloody your enemy: you are supposed to achieve something in doing so.

There are a few other passages to similar effect, but for brevity, these two will do to illustrate the point: the author seems to be subtly implying that America is a "stupid fascist nation". Actually, the way he keeps clarifying the obvious, I think he expects a good amount of his readers to be "stupid fascists".

I cannot say I wholly disagree with his assessment!

the_af 5 hours ago|
> the author seems to be subtly implying that America is a "stupid fascist nation"

He does nothing of the sort.

I can clarify for you: the mention of fascist countries being bad at war is a link to another article by the author, which explains that fascist countries such as Mussolini's Italy and Nazi Germany were very bad at a war even while they mythologized and romanticized it, and derived their "sense of nation" out of symbolic struggle and might. The article you linked to describes many fascist or fascist-like nations, like Putin's Russia, but does not mention liberal democracies such as the USA.

I recommend you read it.

So why did the author mention that article in this context? Because he wanted to explain that countries -- unless they are fascist countries -- have strategic goals for going to war, and so does the US in this case, and therefore it's warranted to look into those goals and whether they have a chance of being met.

Again, I recommend you read the article in question (the one about fascists being bad at war) before jumping to unwarranted conclusions.

amarant 4 hours ago||
We read the article rather differently it seems. My reading is that he's pointing out the lack of goal for America here. Or at the very least the lack of a realistic goal. As he points out, it was clear 40 years ago that the stated objective stood very little chance of being achieved, which in turn makes one wonder if that was even a real objective at all.

And having a stated objective is quite different from having a real objective. Hitler had various stated objectives for all his wars (Lebensraum, fostering the Ubermensch, and rescuing Germans from the supposed oppressions of the Jews, which of course never existed and was purely a fiction to justify unspeakable horrors). If you take Hitler's words at face value, they were all motivated and not at all stupid wars. But you'd be very stupid to take Hitler's words at face value, especially with the benefit of hindsight!

I think the same arguments are applicable to trump. He has stated several goals, none of which are reasonably achievable. Take trumps words at face value and the war makes sense, but he has shown himself to be a pathological liar, so you'd be an idiot to believe him, especially when his statements lack any connection to the real world. Given how he tends to argue, it wouldn't surprise me at all if trump thinks that "bloodying your enemy" is a win in a war. That's how he works. That's how he handles trade. Doesn't matter if tariffs damage America, so long as they also damage other nations, it's a win. Of course he thinks that way about war too!

The end state trump is looking for is damage to Iran. He'll have it. But the rest of the world (including USA) will suffer tenfold. He doesn't care. Because he's a stupid fascist leader.

Thus, we end up with the conclusion that America had no real reason to start this war, and starting it anyway is an action historically only done by stupid fascist countries, therefore America is a stupid fascist country. It's a fourth order implication, which admittedly is not at all clear, and might not have been intentional.

I'm severely biased of course, I generally hold last week's turd in higher regard than I do trump (turds make great fertilizer!). So grain of salt and all that...

guzfip 4 hours ago||
> But you'd be very stupid to take Hitler's words at face value, especially with the benefit of hindsight!

Well there are a lot of very stupid people in this world.

amarant 3 hours ago||
On that, we agree!
avereveard 17 hours ago||
It seems there's a flawed reading coming from a single point in time analysis

Region instability had ben regularly threatening freedom of navigation in the last five years

And USA may not consider the individual country strategic, but cares deeply about freedom of navigation, because the single market is basically the pillar for their hegemony.

Sarah Paine lectures give overall better lenses to look at this engagement.

decimalenough 17 hours ago||
As the article discusses in detail, if the US actually cares about freedom of navigation, the war was a massive own goal because it looks extremely likely to grant the current Iranian regime de facto control of the Strait.
avereveard 16 hours ago||
Iran already had the strait in ransom, directly and indirectly with proxy receiving weapons. You don't get to ignore that part and call this a own goal, since inaction led to the same effective results.
sveme 15 hours ago|||
The strait was navigable until three weeks ago. There are very few conceivable paths towards reestablishing this. This is absolutely not the same effective result.
avereveard 13 hours ago||
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/19/politics/houthi-red-sea-a...

Mhm

orwin 11 hours ago|||
It seems you can't read a map. And btw it's very different targets, Hormuz vessel contain oil, gas and fertiliser for the Asian market. The red see is mostly foodstuff, cattle and Asian good for the European market. Way less impactful
Thiez 12 hours ago|||
You realize that the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf are different places, right? Your link does not support your argument.
ozgrakkurt 7 hours ago||||
Same effective results as in it was causing constant global inflation and instability?
ardit33 16 hours ago|||
What are you talking about? The strait was open, and tankers were not paying tolls as they do now.

They held the threat of closing it, as a deterrent of an attack, and once attacked, they did just that.

You either live in a parallel universe, or are just spewing here propaganda.

avereveard 13 hours ago||
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/19/politics/houthi-red-sea-a...

Lol there were routine attcaks every time things weren't going their way. Whos been in a parallel universe?

And never said closed. I said ransom.

guzfip 11 hours ago||
[flagged]
csmpltn 2 hours ago||
It’s so cringey to witness how every techbro here is all of a sudden an armchair expert on geopolitics, intelligence, game theory, and the 50+ year long conflict with Iran. And they clearly know everything the biggest and most competent intelligence agencies in the world don’t… utterly bizarre times.

People that couldn’t place Iran or Israel or Lebanon on a map, let alone know the first thing about the rivalries in the region or have any skin in the game (beyond “the pump”) just feel like they can comment on any of this - taking cheap shots and crappy cynical takes at it. Where’s the moderation?

SubiculumCode 7 hours ago|
This kind of amateur analysis is not worth being front page of HN. Its not that it doesn't make a few good points, but overall, it just isn't high grade strategic analysis because it lacks a lot of information by the post's own admission.
dmichulke 6 hours ago||
Can you point out a better source or the major points that become invalid due to other circumstances?
the_af 5 hours ago|||
> This kind of amateur analysis is not worth being front page of HN.

The author is a military historian and professor with a PhD, so not an amateur.

If you think this isn't high grade, or that it is mistaken, please explain how and why.

giraffe_lady 6 hours ago||
Nah it's good. It shows exactly how far you can get with just a modest understanding of what strategy actually is at the level of nation states plus publicly available facts from the news.

Especially in the heavily jingoistic american context, where all of the focus is implicitly on the military means and technology and execution, but people have lost sight of, maybe can not even state plainly, what the point of a military is, what considerations are part of deciding to use it to accomplish a goal.

If you're going to accomplish a strategic goal with a military action, that goal had better be achievable through military action and this one plainly isn't. A historian can see it, a blogger can see it, a programmer can see it. Why wasn't it seen by people whose job is ostensibly to see it?

SubiculumCode 4 hours ago||
It doesn't even consider potential primary objectives, especially when viewed alongside the recent actions in Venezuela:

1. If US was to replace Iran as the one to control exports of oil through the strait, then thos would gain huge leverage on China via control of energy exports from Iran, Middle East more generally, as they have already done in Venezuela.

2. Making it clear that partnership with Russia and China will not provide security, which was shown to be worthless. This counters “The East is rising and the West is declining”, a go-to Xi Jinping line.

4. Securing South America for near-shoring production, decoupling of supply chains from China. Iran, China, and Russia have lots of

5. Disrupting Iranian ability to support Russia against Ukraine via manufacturing of drones in Iran and in Venezuela.

Whether these points are actually part of the strategy, I do not know, but they have been raised by others in the space, and seemed absent in the article.