Top
Best
New

Posted by MrBruh 9 hours ago

The EU still wants to scan your private messages and photos(fightchatcontrol.eu)
808 points | 221 commentspage 4
hsuduebc2 8 hours ago|
Nice website! Sadly, url stays the same across all coutries. I can't send anyone direct link.
hsuduebc2 8 hours ago||
I absolutely don't understand how anyone can support this in the context of rising authoritarianism. Even people in my country which are talking about this phenomena support it. I strongly suspect that they do absolutely know shit about why it's problematic.

I wonder if they would support that every of paper mail would be opened and checked. I strongly doubt that.

layer8 8 hours ago||
It’s a symptom of authoritarianism rising. It wouldn’t be rising if there wasn’t anyone who supports things like that.
hsuduebc2 7 hours ago||
That I would understand, but these policies are supported by most liberal politics from my country and opposed by some populists or "strong hand" politicians. I somehow understand that various russian agents are against that, because that can theoretically be used against them but these liberal democrats are somewhat mystery for me.
stinkbeetle 8 hours ago|||
Because social cohesion is also breaking down (which is also by design). People increasingly do not trust and can not rely on neighbors and their fellow citizens to share similar interests and look out for one another. And they have much less power to organize with other citizens to petition their government.

So they feel they must turn to the state for protection.

hermanzegerman 5 hours ago||
Because they fall for the "Its for protecting the Children" Bullshit
hirvi74 4 hours ago||
An encrypted message has never sexually violated and traumatized a child, but I'd bet good money that many politicians have. So, it's quite apparent what we need to protect children from in my opinion.
hkon 7 hours ago||
ofc, they only need to get it approved once. they will try until they succeed
elzbardico 9 hours ago||
Please, could the bootlickers of the European Union stop downvoting every single criticism of it?

Are you so obtuse to be unable to figure out that by being like annoying school marms you are just making people start to pay more attention to the populists?

JodieBenitez 8 hours ago||
> Please, could the bootlickers of the European Union stop downvoting every single criticism of it?

Hey, let's call this "forum control" :)

freehorse 9 hours ago||
I don't think criticisms of chat-control-like legislation attempts are downvoted here?
Pay08 9 hours ago|||
This guy has gone on a small anti-EU tirade elsewhere in the thread.
hagbard_c 8 hours ago|||
If my experience is anything to go by the answer is 'yes':

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47412060

> The clearest example of lobbying (chat control) has repeatedly been struck down.

They can try as often as they want and they only have to win once. We - as in those who don't want this Orwellian monster to be written into law - have to win all the time.

That comment was quickly voted down. It is unclear whether this was the usual "don't like this person so I'll downvote all his last posts" or targeted at my statement on how these proposals keep on popping up no matter how often the people - in Greek that spells 'δημόσιο' or 'dèmosio', the root of 'democracy' - have made clear they don't want it.

layer8 8 hours ago||
One reason to downvote it is because laws having some stability is generally a good thing. It also doesn’t prevent laws being passed that strengthen the right to privacy.

The argument is a too simplistic criticism of the legislative process. And it’s independent from criticizing the actual laws that are attempted to be passed. It applies equally to desirable and undesirable laws.

hagbard_c 6 hours ago||
In that case the down-voters could have replied with something like that instead of knee-jerk-pressing that down-vote arrow in an attempt to get rid of a dissenting opinion. I would have responded by pointing out that the repeated attempts at pushing through laws which are clearly unwanted by the voting public has no stabilising effect and only undermines the trust in the legislative process. That my argument of 'they can try as often as they wish because they only have to win once while we have to win every time' is not simplistic but realistic.

I would be interested to hear your reasoning behind that statement by the way, in what way is it 'simplistic'? Why should it be acceptable for politicos to keep on attempting to push through unwanted laws while it is clearly not allowed for e.g. commercial entities to keep on pestering you with unwanted offers? Here's the very same EU on the subject [1]:

Persistent unwanted offers

Under EU law, companies may not make persistent and unwanted offers to you by telephone, fax, e mail or any other media suitable for distance selling.

I propose a similar law for politicos:

Persistent unwanted law proposals

Under EU law, politicians may not make persistent attempts to push through law proposals which have been voted down several times before.

The law text needs to make clear that it is not allowed to keep on trying to push through essentially identical law proposals which have been voted down by $X sessions of the EU parliament. After having been voted down $X times there is a mandatory moratorium of $Y years before a similar law can be brought up to the vote again.

[1] https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treat...

layer8 4 hours ago||
> Why should it be acceptable for politicos to keep on attempting to push through unwanted laws

Think about what would happen if it was somehow prohibited to propose “sufficiently similar” laws again. Opposing parties would start gaming that rule by proposing the weakest flawed version possible for a law, so that it is rejected, which will in consequence prevent a better version of it from being admissible for consideration. Factions being in the majority will proactively propose and reject some laws just in case that, in the next legislative period, other factions gain majority. Similarly, minority factions will be discouraged from even proposing any laws, for fear of canceling future chances when they are rejected. Furthermore, who will judge what is “similar enough” to fall under the rule? Politicians will just start playing games to make it just dissimilar enough to go through.

Sometimes you downvote things because they are so obviously amiss that they aren’t even worth discussing. I understand that it can be frustrating if you don’t think they are amiss, but that’s just how it is.

vrganj 9 hours ago||
Framing this as the EU's attempt is antieuropean propaganda.

It is the Conservatives attempt. The EU parliament is the entity that shot it down last time.

elzbardico 9 hours ago||
EU is not a synonym of Europe. EU propagandists don't get to define what Europe means.

Second. Who gave you the right to define antieuropean union propaganda as a sin.

Some people may hate it, some people may love it, other want to change it.

It was created by vote, surely it can be whatever the fuck the way the people want by vote.

vrganj 9 hours ago||
EU is a synonym for Europe in colloquial conversation the same way USA is a synonym for America.
GalaxyNova 8 hours ago|||
this is just wrong
Findecanor 9 hours ago|||
[flagged]
vrganj 9 hours ago||
Das musst du jetzt aber mal den Amerikanern erklären ;-)
Findecanor 8 hours ago||
Oder... sie könnten jemanden aus Süd- oder Mittelamerika fragen, was das Wort „Amerika“ für ihn bedeutet.
vrganj 8 hours ago||
Entiendo como se sienten los otros Americanos.

But it doesn't change the fact of the matter that in English (and not only English! German, too, as demonstrated), these words have different meanings.

Findecanor 9 hours ago|||
I don't follow EU politics that much, but I know that one of the strongest proponents for it has been from the Swedish Social Democratic party, which has dominated Swedish politics.

So, in my view this is not really a "left" or "right" thing, but something that is pushed by people you could call "the establishment".

vrganj 9 hours ago||
The vote has literally been scheduled by the EPP, the EU grouping of conservative parties.
Pay08 9 hours ago||
And that means only they can support it? This isn't the USA, there's no 2 party system where everything "we" do is good and everything "the other side" does is bad.
hermanzegerman 5 hours ago|||
It means they, the EPP, are the driving force behind the current effort.
vrganj 9 hours ago|||
I'm not saying only they support it, nor do I believe most groupings in the EU are "good". I'm only saying the ones currently working on overturning the parliament vote are the Conservatives, seeing how they're the ones trying to force a revote.
oytis 8 hours ago|||
European Commission is basically as close to being EU's government as it can be, it is fair to say these are the people that represent EU now. Much like it's fair to say that US is bombing Iran even if not all of the US is doing that.
pcrh 9 hours ago|||
Exactly. EU legislation is currently far more respecting of privacy than is legislation in the UK or the US.

For various, and unclear, reasons, there is substantial backing to change this.

EmbarrassedHelp 8 hours ago||
In the UK, Apple is now blocking users from using any web browser to access "non-PG" content unless the user submits to privacy violating age verification. Apple blocks you at the OS level, making VPNs useless.
ab5tract 9 hours ago|||
Can you clarify what you mean? The linked website makes it seem that the majority MEPs of the supporting countries are on board. Are all of the (listed as) supporting countries currently under conservative governments?
AnssiH 8 hours ago|||
The majority of the MEPs are not onboard mandatory scanning, otherwise that would've been passed already.

The site is conflating mandatory scanning with voluntary scanning (status quo). The upcoming vote is about continuing the voluntary scanning (which would otherwise expire).

vaylian 8 hours ago|||
The "voluntary" scanning is still mass surveillance of private messages. We as technologist tend to rely on technical methods to protect our private data. But non-technical people should also enjoy confidential communication, even if they don't actively protect their conversations.
lostmsu 8 hours ago|||
> voluntary scanning

What is that? A setting in OS?

u8080 6 hours ago||
Service could voluntary opt-out, like Pavel Durov did.
vrganj 9 hours ago||||
To quote the banner on said website:

> The Conservatives (EPP) are attempting to force a new vote on Thursday (26th), seeking to reverse Parliament's NO on indiscriminate scanning.

The vote itself is being forced by the EPP. This article by an MEP has more info: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/the-battle-over-chat-contro...

freehorse 8 hours ago||
This does not mean that only EPP supports the bill, though.
vrganj 8 hours ago||
No, but it does mean the attempt is attributable to them.
iso1631 9 hours ago|||
There are two elements to the EU

The Council, which is headed by the government of each member state in equal measure - similar to the Senate in the US

And Parliament, which are directly elected by the people, with each member state having representitives in proportion to their population, so Germany has far more than Ireland. This is similar to Congress.

Now this site says Germany supports it, but then says that MEPS

> 49 oppose, 47 in favor (45 confirmed, 2 presumed based on government stance)

I would thus infer that the "most member states" refer to the national governments (that were elected by their population) position and not the direct MEP position.

However a quick look at the json it's loading and I can't see

Now as the parliament has blocked it, a grouping, the "EPP" (Think Ronald Reagan type republicans) is trying to use their influence to bring it back to a vote.

> "The Conservatives (EPP) are attempting to force a new vote on Thursday (26th), seeking to reverse Parliament's NO on indiscriminate scanning. This is a direct attack on democracy and blatant disregard for your right to privacy."

sgt 8 hours ago||
Is that fair? Ireland should surely have a say the same way Germany does in parliament too, if it's affecting Ireland just as much. If one considers countries as units.
vrganj 6 hours ago||
That's the whole idea, the parliament doesn't.

The Council is the representation of the countries. The Parliament of the people.

Pay08 9 hours ago|||
This is how political messaging has worked since I was born.
freehorse 9 hours ago|||
The last version of chat control was pushed by Denmark, which presided the european council until december, and with a social democratic prime minister (coalition government with social democrats the majority). The "conservatives push for chat control" is not really accurate, a bit part of social democrats are also supporting it.
vrganj 9 hours ago||
That is true, but this attempt is led by the Conservatives. Not more, not less.
hermanzegerman 5 hours ago||
Many people here seem to have great difficulty with reading comprehension
soulofmischief 9 hours ago|||
Fight Chat Control is a website maintained by a European. It is no more anti-European than I, an American, speaking about the latest antics of our conservative-led government and saying, "The US government is attempting to ____".
hellofriend_ 3 minutes ago||
If you’re against the EU you’re with Hungary and if you’re with Hungary, you’re with Orban and Putin: an enemy of democracy
izacus 9 hours ago|||
Yeah, it's like saying "USA wants to poison children still!" when a Republican files another deranged bill in their state.
ImJamal 9 hours ago|||
It seems like it is bipartisan to me. Do you have the statistics to back up your claim?
9dev 9 hours ago||
This. There's a very specific group of twisted people that drive this, but equating that with the entire EU is flat out wrong.
u8080 6 hours ago||
Who are those people?
dgxyz 9 hours ago||
The trick here is to make it impossible to do so.

Don’t put your shit in the cloud and use proper E2E secure messaging.

For me the entire idea of the cloud is dead due to exposure like this.

vaylian 8 hours ago||
People on HN but also criminals will know how circumvent this. But the average person will be completely lost in this surveillance apparatus. It's going to affect the wrong people.
dgxyz 8 hours ago|||
I’ve been eternally surprised at how non technical people work around problems. I mean I have a totally technology illiterate family member who worked out how to torrent films and watch them and install ublock and Firefox.
Muromec 5 hours ago|||
>People on HN but also criminals will know how circumvent this.

Criminals in question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Trojan_Shield

cubefox 9 hours ago|||
It's client side scanning.
dgxyz 8 hours ago||
You can refuse to use software that does it.
Zufriedenheit 8 hours ago|||
If they force their spyware into Android/iOS you are running out of options.
drnick1 6 hours ago|||
Then guess what, criminals will use Linux phones running semi-custom apps for their encrypted business while honest citizens will be spied on.
dgxyz 8 hours ago||||
Pixel and GrapheneOS or something. Already considering it.
NexRebular 8 hours ago|||
Gotta get back in time. The Symbian S60/S80 platform will rise again!
nunobrito 8 hours ago|||
Like others said: this is implemented on operating system level, locally.

There isn't much escape other than using messengers which encrypt the data locally. Geogram radio is doing this.

dgxyz 8 hours ago||
I’d rather use an older or open source OS without it
lostmsu 8 hours ago||
That's one of the tricks. The other trick is to vote in universal right for encrypted communication once and for all.
tekne 7 hours ago|||
Encryption is mathematics -- making this an issue of freedom not only of speech, but of thought.
dgxyz 8 hours ago|||
That’s the best answer. But you’re up against paid up lobbyists.
spwa4 7 hours ago||
But don't worry, exceptions for ALL officials are built in. And I do mean ALL officials. In this bill, for example, pedophile gym teachers are perfectly safe from getting scanned.

Gym teachers are also the largest group of people convicted for pedophilia. So you can be sure they are keeping their priorities straight. States, and the monopoly telco's are also protected from paying even the tiniest amount of money for companies to do these scans, all costs are entirely offloaded to app developers.

So the priorities are clear:

1) protecting the state from even the tiniest amount of responsibility, even at the cost of children getting abused

2) keeping some 50 foreign states from the same

3) keeping a whole list of organizations safe from inspections

4) keeping the state safe from actually spending any amount of money on these scans

...

n) protecting children

tjwebbnorfolk 8 hours ago||
does this violate GDPR?
Muromec 5 hours ago||
>GDPR Article 2 Material scope

>2. This Regulation does not apply to the processing of personal data:

>by competent authorities for the purposes of the prevention, investigation, detection or prosecution of criminal offences or the execution of criminal penalties, including the safeguarding against and the prevention of threats to public security.

gib444 8 hours ago||
Maybe...in a world where lawmakers didn't put huge exemptions into GDPR for governments and law enforcement etc. Which they did.
iam_circuit 5 hours ago|
[dead]