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Posted by zdw 16 hours ago

The curious case of retro demo scene graphics(www.datagubbe.se)
330 points | 83 commentspage 3
deepsun 4 hours ago|
"Good artists copy, great artists steal" (c) Picasso
mda 15 hours ago||
In the Lazur's 256 colour rendition, it is curious that they got the details in the front very well but messed up the third guys face completely.
weinzierl 14 hours ago||
To me all the faces look messed but I believe it is mostly because the image seems to be distorted, it is stretched in the vertical direction. I suspect it was created on hardware with non-square pixels and is just displayed wrongly.
andai 13 hours ago||
I was curious and took a look in an image editor. It indeed fits much better with y axis scaled down 15-20%
exo762 13 hours ago||
If look good if you look at the image in original resolution. Click on it.
Lerc 9 hours ago||
I would contest that choosing not to reveal the use of AI is due to an agreement of the nature of the behaviour. In an ideal world that could maybe be the case, but I think the driving force behind secrecy is harassment.

There are those who use AI as part of their process proudly, but secretly, because they know they will receive abuse.

I really wonder how some people think of themselves as artists while simultaneously attacking another persons choice of self expression.

itomato 7 hours ago||
GenAI tools absolutely suck at pixel art from my experience. They can mimic aspects of the look at the display layer, but they are fundamentally bogus.

Sprite animation in particular is bad unless you build a bespoke engine to spit out sequential PNGs.

A poser will give, but not withstand (and internalize) critique. An artist is too busy producing or suffering to care.

Lerc 1 hour ago||
> They can mimic aspects of the look at the display layer, but they are fundamentally bogus.

The same could be said of a lot of retro themed games. They frequently do not adhere to the same requirement such as number of colours per attribute cell. Nevertheless, they are producing a style that they are aiming for.

But I agree that GenAI tends to suck at pixel art. It will be interesting to see how much that changes. More importantly poor quality art is still art, and frequently making poor art is the first step towards making great art. You don't have to like or applaud things you don't feel are very good. It is just not kind or useful to attack the artist.

>A poser will give, but not withstand (and internalize) critique. An artist is too busy producing or suffering to care.

This is my sense as well. The bulk of the aggressive behaviour seems to be coming from people whose identity values that they can produce things others cannot. Those who like just producing things are still just producing things.

fao_ 8 hours ago||
> I really wonder how some people think of themselves as artists while simultaneously attacking another persons choice of self expression.

Because AI art is not art, and rips off existing artwork in a way that is more than learning from the style and imitating.

Lerc 8 hours ago||
Why do you get to proclaim what is and isn't art? It is a topic that has been debated for millennia.

Almost every respected art form today was birthed to cries of "That is not art"

dfxm12 3 hours ago||
I don't think anyone was selling demos commercially or trying to pass off the creative ideas as their own work. With this in mind, we should set aside ideas of plagiarism, copyright, etc. It was a showcase of technical prowess/creativity. People knew what Death Dealer looked like & if they saw it pop up in a demo, they wouldn't think the demogroup was passing it on as their original idea (I would assert this was a given). As such, it was meant to be a reference. People thought they knew the limitation of their computer. They would play Lemmings, or whatever, and think that's as good as the graphics on the Amiga can get. The point of the demo was to blow those conceptions away.

The creative part in a demo wasn't the the art itself, the subject, the composition, etc., no, it was representing something thought impossible. Eventually, kinda like how photography changed painters' relationship with realistic representation, more powerful tech did the same with these types of demos, so the medium moved on.

aditmag 14 hours ago||
It would be so awesome to make a cartoon today using original techniques with hand-drawn scenes, multiplane cameras, and most importantly jazz music :)
jamiek88 15 hours ago||
These people literally gods to me growing up. My parents were poorer than others so we never had any computer better than an acorn electron but the demos my friends with amigas and Atari ST’s showed my blew my mind.
bowsamic 9 hours ago||
If only the demoscene wasn’t so horrible culturally. It’s absolutely full of old sceners who have “earned” being dicks to people, and unfortunately many newbies who think that the way to be a real scener is to copy that behaviour. The constant flamewars on pouet.net are embarrassing. It is a good reminder that the internet did not used to be a nicer place though
shevy-java 14 hours ago||
> Pixel artist Lazur's 256 colour rendition (left) of a photo by Krzysztof Kaczorowski (right). A masterful copy showcasing the sharpness, details and vibrancy achievable with pixel techniques.

Well - the edited image looks clearer in the rendition, but also more fake. So unless that was the goal, I prefer the more blurred image, simply because it is more authentic than that digital edit. Many AI images have a similar problem; they look very out of place. I noticed this in some games where AI generated images are used. The images look great but they simply don't fit into the game at hand or they have a style that looks alien. Case in point was mods for the game Baldur's Gate 2 EE, where these images are great but they look very outside-ish. And that's a problem that seems to be hard to get rid of from such generated images, at the least for most of those I saw so far.

cess11 12 hours ago|
It was done in 1995, and likely not as an edit, but as a hand pixeled replication.

https://demozoo.org/graphics/28620/

cubefox 12 hours ago||
That's was a great read and I agree with the author. Though to be honest, I don't particularly like the type of Amiga pixel art in the article. That is, pixel art with relatively high resolution and relatively high color depth. Everything looks too smooth and hyperrealistic in my opinion.

I think things can look much better for pixel art that is either very low resolution (e.g. the small characters and objects in a SNES game, which would usually be just a few pixels wide, so every pixel has to be placed deliberately) or has a very low color depth (a pallette between two to ~16 colors, like the backgrounds in a PC-88 game), or both (like the sprites in a Game Boy game).

An example where higher color depth can ruin the visuals is "Snatcher" by Kojima. The backgrounds for the original PC-88 and MSX versions were relatively detailed (200x100 pixels perhaps), while the color depth was very low (8 colors?), which greatly accentuated the pixel-art look. However, the later re-releases added more and more colors and smooth gradients, which only made it look worse, like a mediocre comic book.

charcircuit 15 hours ago|
>It's a place of refuge from the constant churn of increased efficiency

Increased efficiency also seems to be part of its appeal. The limitation is you can't increase efficiency by just upgrading computer specs, but instead have to find innovating ways to use the existing resources as efficient as possible to make something great. These kinds of optimization or compression problems seems like something AI would be very helpful for, so I think it is premature to try and ban its usage.

jackdaniel 15 hours ago||
This is quite tone deaf - demoscene stands for creativity and resource constraint, and using ai cancels both in favor of resource intensive cognitive offload
Reebz 14 hours ago||
Not knowing the scene and only what I took from the article - it’s precisely this. There is a reverence towards human labour and effort that affords relaxing what are generally accepted social contracts in other areas (e.g. copying). It’s a very interesting social construct where the self-policing is in a very specific are whilst other areas are forgiven.
cess11 12 hours ago|||
The demo scene is obsessed with hardware and tooling. Exhaustively knowing how things work and showing practical results as evidence is the main activity at demo parties.

You can crib techniques from other people but unless you also show that you understand them deeply, e.g. by creative adaptions, you'll still be considered a lamer even though your results match those of someone else.

This is one of the reasons why the demo scene still has a lot of physical events, it's part of the socialisation process to be in the same room as other people, putting in your final touches while they observe and produce distractions that in practice validate your abilities and respectable refusal to take shortcuts.

zyx321 9 hours ago||
AI would be helpful for finding innovative solutions?

Are you talking about some sort of hypothetical future Super-AGI?

charcircuit 2 hours ago||
Even brute force from something like autoresearch could be able to find ways to squeeze out extra space by trying different ways to express things and rewrite it.
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