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Posted by doctorhandshake 8 hours ago

What being ripped off taught me(belief.horse)
240 points | 141 commentspage 2
apt-apt-apt-apt 6 hours ago|
Actually sort of darkly clever– they turned OP into an unwitting investor.

Project goes well, he gets paid and they're best buds, and he doesn't even realize he was scammed (by intent). If not, well there's no point suing a failed company.

dilyevsky 3 hours ago|
If you're in California, even if business goes totally kaput and runs out of money company officers are personally liable for any and all unpaid wages. Labor Commission Office will also include a hefty punitive sum to boot.
sudobash1 2 hours ago|||
I don't think this makes a difference for independent contractors.
Analemma_ 1 hour ago|||
Doesn’t apply to contractors. In fact, if you do contract work for a company which misses payroll, courts can claw back money out of your bank account in order to pay it. It’s rare, because usually this is about “contractors” who are actually accomplices of the owner, getting free money out of the failing company with inflated payments for fake work, but it does happen.
rwmj 7 hours ago||
What's an "AR bus"? How can augmented reality windows work on a bus unless you are (a) tracking the passenger's head and (b) there's only one passenger?
post-it 7 hours ago|
Screens outside the windows (not on the windows) can provide parallax, no need to track heads. However, in this case:

> They were attempting to pull off AR effects on the transparent OLED windows of the bus without accounting for lens distortion, field of view, parallax, occlusion, etc., and were frustrated and mystified when things didn’t appear to line up. They were completely naive to what depth and scale cues are and how to deploy them.

FabHK 6 hours ago|||
Can you elaborate? It seems to me that unless the screens are that far outside that they are where the target object is, two people that are offset laterally wrt the target object would have to be displayed something that's offset on the screen.
aziaziazi 2 hours ago||||
Imagine two passengers seating in rows r10 and r11, looking at the target T

A. You need to know where a passager's eyes are to display the POI in the right place. Even if each rows gets their own and only screen you'll need to account for their head vertical position (different people are different height) and movement, hence the eye tracking.

B. If you share a window between multiple people you end us with a POI mess with informations displayed multiplied by as much passengers in the bus.

   |- r9  -|w9
   |       |w9
   |- r10 -|w10   T
   |       |w10
   |- r11 -|w11
   |       |w11
   |- r12 -|w12
IMHO the only practical way is with personal headsets like [0] but then you don't need a bus: just use your foot or any transportation: it's AR and not VR.

0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpoLdQpPcAc

sambaumann 6 hours ago|||
So is it an actual moving bus or just a simulation of one? I have not heard of the concept before
uxcolumbo 5 hours ago||
Your blog is a treasure trove - thanks for sharing.

Do you still cut your own hair ;) ?

But yes us folks in the creative world can learn a few things from the corporate world when it comes to contracts and payment schedules. Mike Monteiro's talk 'F*ck you, pay me' comes to mind.

---

https://www.mikemonteiro.com/

https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1

doctorhandshake 1 hour ago|
Thanks - still cut my own hair but rethinking after a particularly disastrous one recently!
wewewedxfgdf 7 hours ago||
Be paid or don't work.

I am so deadly serious - do not continue working if your invoices are late.

You don't have to be a jerk about it, just explain to your primary contact that you need to be paid and you pick up tools again when the money has arrived.

BUT it is on YOU to properly negotiate reasonable payment terms. And if you don;t know or don't trust the client then require payment in advance until a stronger commercial relationship can be settled in. Do not be a baby - go research business contracts and payment terms.

Do not be afraid to lose business from companies that are squeamish about paying you - in fact actively avoid such companies.

DataDaoDe 6 hours ago||
Sadly this is true and lesson anyone who has worked freelance has probably learned - either that or I'd wager they no longer do freelance.

Its easy to say don't be afraid to lose business, but when you're starting out, the economy is rough or all you have are the one or two clients, that's a different matter entirely.

One thing I've learned is that you always have to do the leg work, you can't assume someone will do the right thing or keep their word.

Develop a system where even bad clients, can't do too much damage i.e. upfront deposits, milestone-based payments. You have to control cash flow risks, if you are gonna take risks know what risks you're taking and when to get out.

bluGill 6 hours ago|||
There are also bad suppliers who don't do their leg work. I've "fired" some companies who did great work for me because they couldn't be bothered to send a bill - I know I owe someone some money, but I don't know how much as despite begging they won't tell me how much or where to send it (I only have a phone number) - this bill could get larger, and they can come after me at any time for it...

Please don't be them. If you do good work make sure that you get your bills sent on time.

stronglikedan 6 hours ago|||
> Sadly this is true and lesson anyone who has worked freelance has probably learned - either that or I'd wager they no longer do freelance.

Sadly, while this is true, there are plenty of folks still doing freelance who have not learned this, and there always will be. It's just one of those lessons that quite a lot of people have to learn from experience, even after reading posts like this. The exact same reason why companies will continue to get away with taking advantage of freelance work.

ProllyInfamous 6 hours ago||
>>companies will continue to get away with taking advantage of freelance work.

Think of ¡all the exposure! doing this free labor for us will give you! /s

or:

I'll cook you dinner if you do this days of work for me /serious?!

magicalhippo 7 hours ago|||
> Do not be afraid to lose business from companies that are squeamish about paying you - in fact actively avoid such companies.

My boss said that the ones who have negotiated the best deals are the ones that are late paying, complain about just about every bill and will write angry letters when my boss index adjust pricing.

He said it taught him to never offer a really good deal for a regular customer (ie where the upside isn't very obvious).

stavros 7 hours ago|||
I'm not sure that's the best takeaway here, in that it gets the causation wrong. It's not the deal that made the customer bad, it's that the bad customer insisted on getting a deal, whereas a good customer usually knows what quality costs and is prepared to pay.

The takeaway here is probably that the fix isn't just "never discount", but it's to screen for the kind of customer who treats a good deal as an invitation to strengthen the relationship.

mikepurvis 6 hours ago|||
> strengthen the relationship

This is really the key. The "deal" has to have something for both parties. The vendor gets some kind of lock-in, prepayment, guarantee of future business, whatever it is, and in exchange the purchaser gets a discount.

The discount doesn't just come out of nowhere.

magicalhippo 6 hours ago||||
> It's not the deal that made the customer bad, it's that the bad customer insisted on getting a deal

That was indeed the point, guess I conveyed it in a poor way.

stavros 6 hours ago||
That's OK, it's clarified now.
danesparza 6 hours ago|||
This. A bad customer made a desperate situation worse because of their inexperience, neglect, shady motives, or a combination of the three.
brabel 5 hours ago|||
Where I live the phone companies do this: you can get a discount every year by calling them and saying you will change companies unless they give you a better price. They always do and the only people paying normal prices are the ones who can’t be bothered to call them every year to request the discount!
ghaff 5 hours ago|||
And dealing with a lot of that crap is more trouble than many of us want to be filling our days with. Micro-optimizations I might have done as a student I mostly don’t do today.
busterarm 4 hours ago||||
In order to make out on this at my hourly rate, I would have to cap my phone time with the company to minutes. Single digit.

It's literally just not worth it. Time is the most finite resource that we all have.

fn-mote 5 hours ago|||
These companies are scum. I don't want to be part of this march to the bottom of caring for your customer. Big companies are also different because of the firmness with which they are locked in to the purchasing infrastructure (among other reasons).
nradov 5 hours ago||
Sure, all major US cellular carriers are scum and abuse customers in similar ways. So you'll be part of the march to the bottom whether you want it or not.

It is possible to switch to a smaller VNO with better customer policies. But then your cellular data gets dropped during heavy network congestion, which is probably worse for most of us.

brobdingnagians 4 hours ago|||
So true. And I'll add, no matter how trustworthy you believe the other party to be based on reptutation, relationships, or otherwise-- they should understand requiring assurances. The worst backstabs are from the people you know and who should know better. And a lot of people will justify it to themselves if they get in trouble. They will continue telling themselves that they are fundamentally good people and it just didn't work out as they rip you off for a lot of money. If they say the equivalent of "why don't you trust me?" that's a red flag.
the_snooze 7 hours ago|||
A professional knows what they're worth and what they need to deliver. On-time payment according on an agreed-upon schedule is table stakes. That's the most fundamental requirement. Nothing happens without that.
moduspol 6 hours ago|||
And also: political organizations and churches always must pay up front.
TravelTechGuy 4 hours ago||
Agreed. Another important lesson I learned when delivering code to a non-profit org, and them asking me to convert my final invoices into "donations" to the org.
awongh 6 hours ago|||
I feel like it's easy in hindsight to say some tough sounding advice in the form of "be a hard-ass", but idk, I feel like there are plenty of real life cases that contradict this advice- taking a chance on a referral to work on something you find interesting. Of course the big-money clients will be fine with a hard-line stance and they have money to pay at the end, but that work tends to be less interesting.

OTOH, one other clear subtext of the story is the "savior" attitude of a lot of tech people, who think that, if they weren't using version control before, think, "oh, I'll just tell them about this great thing, and because it's much better they will definitely listen to me and implement it - it's only logical". But the harsh reality is that "better" things won't affect an org that went along that far and dug themselves that deep.

Never underestimate an org's ability to shoot itself in the foot, even if you think you know better. That includes getting your money from them.

ivraatiems 4 hours ago|||
I guarantee you that if OP said, sorry, do this or I am going home, they would have done what needed to be done. Both in terms of payment, and in terms of getting their software and hardware houses in order.

It might have involved OP getting a taxi to the airport and being chased down at the gate, but it would have worked.

And even if it didn't, they would have saved themselves enormous time, money, and stress by following through on their threats if it didn't work out.

ProllyInfamous 6 hours ago|||
>Be paid or don't work.

As an electrician currently self-stopped (for both non-payment & absenteeism, two months no contact, so far) I'm not budging. When you didn't show up for our last two on-site meetups (and still haven't contacted), I thought about filing a lien... but decided to just keep you from having tenants (by not finishing AC/water/electric). You'll get around to it..?

When I told this LLC/owner "you obviously aren't in a rush because you obviously aren't visiting the jobsite/me" I sort of expected him to show within a few days. Then a few weeks. And now we're entering a few months.

You have weeks of my punchlists (unresolved to do), I have weeks of questions (what do you want?) and you won't even do simple things like turning on power/water.

Fuck you, pay me.

[•] <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U>

danesparza 6 hours ago|||
And for a rush job, don't be afraid to demand half the payment up front, or some other good-faith gesture on the client's part.
veunes 6 hours ago|||
This is all correct in principle, but in practice it's a lot messier
nradov 4 hours ago|||
It doesn't have to be messy. A lot of the messiness is self inflicted by contractors who are desperate for work and would be better of just getting a regular employee job instead.
notnaut 6 hours ago|||
I can imagine the type of work you do heavily influences the chance of begin paid during/before work finishes too…
righthand 7 hours ago|||
100% agree, and to add it can be tough sometimes to walk away from a cool project. I had worked on a project building scientific trial software, an app to review 3D lung scans, and an ML model to detect lesions in lung scans. It was really empowering, but after the first scientific trial the customer stopped paying their bills and ended up in back payment of $1M. My boss closed the project which sucked but it ultimately cost the company and people’s jobs. Just not worth interacting with bad people if they stop the agreement. There is most likely more money later but there is also money that is on time with other customers.
01284a7e 4 hours ago|||
Your business is getting the money. Your business is not to fly around the world trying to engineer-mog the client. The OP has a bad ego.

"They don't even use version control..." Yeah? Get the money. The client are "carpetbaggers", yeah okay... get the money.

It's implied that they hired you because they need the help. But they also may have hired you because they need the help and you seem like a sucker they can stiff.

gcr 6 hours ago||
What if you’re a cofounder or founding engineer and the company hasn’t raised yet?
jt2190 5 hours ago||
Unlike in the article where a contractor was promised payment and no payment was made, the cofounder here knows already that the company can’t pay until they raise funds, and has planned for this accordingly, by living off of personal savings or contract jobs. They also understand the risk they’ve taken on and are comfortable trading their time for possibly zero returns.
ian_d 6 hours ago||
Evergreen advice from the design side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U (Mike Monteiro: F*ck You, Pay Me)
normie3000 6 hours ago|
Watched a couple of times, but I don't fully understand the message in this video. Can someone ELI5?
post-it 6 hours ago|||
The message is to have a contract and insist on being paid according to the contract, and refuse further work until you get paid.
Kye 6 hours ago|||
Have a contract that encodes "fuck you, pay me" into the terms. Ideally, have an actual lawyer take care of the contract and the enforcement. There's a lot of law-y stuff out there that won't hold up in reality. Mortgage companies don't take payment in excuses from your clients, so neither should you.
freediddy 6 hours ago||
When you walk into a shitshow like this, the first thing you do is secure your payments. Anyone who is in such bad shape like how OP described it means that they are desperate, and desperate people will do and say anything to get help.

It is most likely going to not pay anyone so you need to make sure you're paid above and beyond anything else otherwise walk.

notquitebuddy 6 hours ago|
You forgot the middleground where there are thousands of laid off people who can do your exact job and undercut you etc.

These founders hire/fire through hundreds of us, they don't give a shit.

If you say 1 thing they don't like they go to the next.

freediddy 6 hours ago|||
That's not the middle ground. That's the other extreme, where people are desperate for work so they will say they can do anything in order to get work.
notquitebuddy 5 hours ago||
[dead]
noident 6 hours ago|||
How many of those people have experience with augmented reality? Probably not that many.

$35k seems pretty low for this job. Hindsight is 20/20 of course.

ycarechildren 6 hours ago||
The same founders who require employees to work 24/7/365 while they jack off to Hentai all day are the same ones who don't pay:

HockeyStack, Greptile, Velt all had problems paying me and all required 7 day a week, overnight, etc.

ChrisMarshallNY 7 hours ago||
That doesn’t really sound like “being ripped off,” as opposed to “betting on a lame horse.”

The people behind this were irresponsible, childish, and exemplars of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They weren’t really hardline crooks. Crooks are probably a lot more organized.

I have gotten myself invested with similar crowds. There’s usually a charismatic spokesperson, leading the chaos.

They likely didn’t plan to rip him off, but paying him wasn’t really something they thought about. Real crooks put lots of planning into taking money.

> Multiple very junior developers were touching (binary, TouchDesigner) code and deploying straight to production via thumb drive, with zero version control. In fact, they didn’t know what version control was.

I suspect many startups fit that description. If they survive, then they usually pull themselves up by the bootstraps, eventually. Many of them collapse, taking everything with them.

doctorhandshake 6 hours ago|
I think you’re right and it’s fair to reframe this that way, in that in a certain sense, despite my naivety, I was the adult in the room and should have seen what they couldn’t.

But then given what I’ve learned since I think I can say with some certainty that this particular group saw the writing on the wall and were willing to use the skilled labor and time of an endless army of cannon fodder to try to staunch the bleeding or take one more long shot at getting final payment, and doing so without the agreement or awareness of the people they enlisted to the risk they were participating in.

ChrisMarshallNY 6 hours ago||
I've seen similar, at a bigger scale.

When the wheels start coming off, morals are first over the side.

In some cases (think Theranos), it can go all the way into straight criminality. Most times, it just reaches the point where everything collapses, when the supports rust away.

throwaway98797 7 hours ago||
> End clients can’t tell the difference between these bozos and me. I don’t know what to do with that information but it feels bad.

this is only getting worse with ai.

all the artifacts of good work are there but none of the depth.

xyzelement 7 hours ago|
The fact that this is so many words makes me worry the author underappreciated the main lesson: risk exposure.

When you go out of pocket - you are out of pocket and the risk is all yours. If that one thing was different then all the remaining risk is on the client - they don't want to do version contr - ok cool you still get paid.

Usually when you have to pay in to get paid out (outside of a direct investment scenario) it's a scam. The people who fall for the Nigeria Prince thing are operating the same way.

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