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Posted by pulisse 5 hours ago

12k Tons of Dumped Orange Peel Grew into a Landscape Nobody Expected (2017)(www.sciencealert.com)
203 points | 72 commentspage 2
arnorhs 4 hours ago|
Does orange peel not produce any CO2 / methane when left like this? I'm assuming there is some negative carbon footprint before this becomes a positive?

The ecological win definitely looks nice on paper, but whenever people talk about compost the carbon footprint / gas emissions is always at the front of people's minds, and I don't really see that discussed in the article.

The article does say

> Especially since, in addition to the double-win of dealing with waste and revitalising barren landscapes, richer woodlands also sequester greater amounts of carbon from the atmosphere – meaning little plots of regenerated land like this could ultimately help save the planet.

How long will it take for it to cross the CO2-neutral mark? Maybe a silly question, definitely not my area of expertese.

sfink 4 hours ago||
CO2 is going to be neutral for the peels. You're just transporting it from where the oranges grew to where they were dumped. The CO2 benefit is purely from the trees and other biomass that grow where they wouldn't be growing before.

As for methane, that's a good question. Orange peels are better than most things because the limonene inhibits methane producing bacteria. But you'd still get quite a bit in the deeper piles (that produce the anaerobic conditions needed for methane production).

Spreading them out more would help, but might interfere with the beneficial effects.

rustystump 3 hours ago||
I may be wrong but isnt most of the tree carbon capture over stated as in the overwhelming majority comes from algae in the oceans?

While forests are great they are not the best focus iirc compared to the oceans.

nomel 1 hour ago||
Yes. A potential method of capture is to seed the ocean with more iron [1], to help the algae.

I assume that China will be the first to do these sorts of things, since the west will be too hogtied in regulations, lawsuits, and bureaucracy.

[1] https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2026/02/17/ocean-iron-fertilizat...

subscribed 1 hour ago||
China could definitely do this, to offset the minuscule of the destruction they do with the dark fishing fleets around (and possibly in) protected marine areas.
laurencerowe 4 hours ago|||
The orange peel is going to decompose and produce CO2 either way. Methane is produced when there is not enough oxygen available while decomposing, which certainly seems a possibility if it's dumped in big piles.
PaulHoule 3 hours ago||
Mostly.

Remember the orange trees took the CO2 out of the atmosphere to make the peels. Some of it, probably most of it, is going back into the atmosphere but some of it is going to become soil carbon which could be retained for decades

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_carbon

Soil carbon is like dark matter in that there is a lot of it and it is poorly understood.

dgacmu 4 hours ago||
You're getting downvoted but it's a reasonable question if posed in good faith. The tl;dr is that there are really a few options for what could happen to those orange peels:

(1) Landfill burial

   (1a) Without methane capture and use: Produces methane, relatively high short term warming potential.
   (1b) With methane capture and use: Ends up as CO2 after burning the methane.
(2) Composting (this approach)

   (2a) Mostly aerobic: Produces CO2
   (2b) Mostly anaerobic: Produces methane
A deep pile that is never turned will decompose anaerobically, resulting in fairly undesirable methane. A shallower pile or one that is mixed well will result in mostly aerobic decomposition. The aerobic decomposition will produce CO2 but not huge amounts of it. Each hectare of land could absorb something like ~8 tons of CO2 per year; with 7 hectares, the CO2 emitted by composting 12t of oranges is going to be dwarfed by the new vegetation. After a few years when you're growing big trees, the rate of CO2 absorption might rise as high as 20-30t/year/hectare in costa rica's environment. And this is probably an underestimate, as the soil amendment of the orange peels seems to have stimulated faster regrowth than would have happened otherwise.

And perhaps more to the point: There isn't really a purely "no co2" way of disposing of organic matter other than perhaps burying it at the bottom of a deep mineshaft (but the co2 or methane will be produced anyway). Landfilling it is strictly worse - you still get the decomposition products, _or worse_ because you'll mostly get methane, but without producing useful soil byproducts.

Overall this project is a huge win on a carbon perspective and a waste reduction perspective.

mvdtnz 1 hour ago||
It's not a reasonable question. What's the alternative for the orange peels? They were going to rot and release that CO2 whether they did it in a big pile here or somewhere else.
dgacmu 59 minutes ago||
That's why I said if asked in good faith. :-)

But seriously GP could have had a mental model that landfilled orange peels might sit there for a long time -- which depending on conditions and food could be true on human scales (like 10-40 years) but not on the scale of 100 years. Especially if the conditions were dry -- a dry orange peel is pretty robust. That's not likely to be the case in Costa Rica, but I'll forgive some naivety here absent demonstrated malice.

throwway262515 5 hours ago||
> As for how the orange peels were able to regenerate the site so effectively in just 16 years of isolation, nobody's entirely sure.

Another data point to the thesis that it's not the earth that needs saving, it's human systems. If disruption becomes the order of the day, who's impacted the worst?

asplake 4 hours ago||
Previously: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=orange+peel
contingencies 3 hours ago||
The whole compost thing can be a lot of hassle for people. For a simpler option, if you are lucky enough to have a decent garden area, find somewhere away from your house and just throw biomass there regularly. Coffee grinds, spent tea, leftover veg, etc. and watch what happens! Sometimes simple is best.
ssl-3 2 hours ago||
Indeed. I've been doing that for a quite a number of years now.

I just put food waste and some other compostable stuff outside -- in a pile, on the ground. Currently, that pile is in a place where autumn leaves tend to gather naturally.

And in that pile, it all composts. It turns last week's bean soup into next year's hot pepper harvest.

It's not zero-effort but it's very close. I'll have spent more time writing this comment than I have on any aspect of composting over the last several months.

Later on, to use it in the garden, I just... use it in the garden. I scoop aside the top layer with a shovel and take whatever is beneath it. The plants don't seem to care that the composting method is slow and lazy, or that a portion of it might be somewhat unfinished.

(Now, to be sure: Home-scale composting can have a great deal of optimization applied. Bins, aeration, deliberate introduction of red worms, careful management of moisture, temperature monitoring, whatever -- the sky's the limit. But I have enough hobbies, and I'm not trying to market it as a product or win a race here. This method keeps up with my household's output just fine and doesn't take up much room at all in my tiny-ass yard.)

hermitcrab 1 hour ago|||
Rats and other undesirables can be attracted to compost. So it is probably best to use a composting bin, if you can.

Also try to mix in some brown/carbon (leaves, shredded paper, cardboard etc) with your green/nitrogen (food scraps, grass cuttings etc), otherwise it can become a stinky swamp (anerobic).

contingencies 39 minutes ago||
It's possible to approach composting form a more simplistic standpoint. The listed issues are mostly specific to high density (eg. in a fixed bin) composting. If you spread it out these problems basically go away, and so do the stinky compost labor and purchasing requirements.
hermitcrab 32 minutes ago||
Do you not have problems with rats and other vermin?
contingencies 11 minutes ago||
No. What's 'other vermin'? We have plenty of native animals. I see a few of them feeding in the area I distribute organic matter, including (non-snake) reptiles, turkeys, possums, butterflies, native bees, spiders, etc. Lots of fungi too.
mikkupikku 1 hour ago||
Ngl I didn't know there was another way to compost. The whole idea is to just throw vegetable waste into a pile and let it turn into dirt, isn't it?
skipants 5 hours ago||
> Despite this promising start, the conservation experiment wasn't to last, after a rival juice manufacturer called TicoFruit sued Del Oro, alleging that its competitor had "defiled a national park".

... why does TicoFruit even care? Did they just see their competitor do something that might be good for people and sue them out of spite?

nightpool 5 hours ago||
They saw it as corruption, basically. Here's a contemporaneous article: https://apps.sas.upenn.edu/caterpillar/index.php?action=retr...

> TicoFrut, which is 98% Costa Rican-owned, charges that the environmental services contract is little more than a permit for improper disposal of its foreign-owned competitor's waste. TicoFrut President Carlos Odio says Del Oro should be compelled to build a proper waste-disposal plant just as his company was forced to do in the mid-1990s amid allegations that orange waste from its juicing plant was polluting a nearby river. So TicoFrut teamed up with a high-profile environmentalist and radio host, Alexander Bonilla, and enlisted the support of two prominent congressmen and a few citrus growers in denouncing the Del Oro project. However, none of Costa Rica's conservation groups joined in the attack on Del Oro.

[...]

> One of the ministers they cited was the acting environment minister at the time, Carlos Manuel Rodriguez, who signed the contract on behalf of the government. Rodriguez, an attorney, denied having sat on Del Oro's board but acknowledged representing the company while working in a law firm contracted by the CDC, Del Oro's British owners. The other official, Agriculture Minister Esteban Brenes, acknowledged having sat on Del Oro's board but denied any involvement with the contract.

> TicoFrut also claimed foreign employees of the CDC and, by extension, Del Oro, had received diplomatic immunity as a sweetener to invest, and could thus act with impunity.

> The Costa Rican Ombudsman's Office conducted its own review and declared the contract illegal. In its non-binding ruling, the ombudsman's office said no official studies had been done on the viability of the orange-waste experiment, and that due process had not been followed before the contract's signing

MisterTea 4 hours ago|||
> TicoFrut President Carlos Odio says Del Oro should be compelled to build a proper waste-disposal plant just as his company was forced to do in the mid-1990s amid allegations that orange waste from its juicing plant was polluting a nearby river.

This is the work of a petty man child. This is how it reads to me: "I got caught being a lazy irresponsible cheap-skate who was illegally dumping and had to pay. Meanwhile, these intelligent forward-thinking jerks find an environmentally beneficial way to dispose of their waste for free! I'll show them and take those goody two shoes down a peg!"

TheGRS 3 hours ago||
I'm also disappointed by the decision, but I get the argument made from the business perspective. I'm required to dispose my waste properly and its reflected in my prices, my competitor is not doing these practices and they should be compelled to follow the same regulations. I'm just disappointed that their court sided with the business since a better resolution would've been "your company can do this too if you just do the legwork".
gambiting 1 hour ago||
Well they weren't allowed to do it for free - they had to give up some of their land which had value.
underlipton 4 hours ago||||
In a way, they might have been right. Who knows whether or not a continuation of the active experiment would have pushed it over a tipping point where the positive effects were nullified. Maybe part of the "magic" is that they literally left it there to rot.
PaulHoule 3 hours ago||
it could have been corruption and something that turned out well in the end
jandrese 4 hours ago|||
I mean it makes sense if you were just forced to implement an expensive waste management system and your competitor gets to just dump the stuff on the ground in a National Park. I would complain too.
ambicapter 3 hours ago||
It doesn't make sense if you were forced to implement waste management because you did it poorly to start with and your competitor found a smart way to do it for cheap.
throwway262515 5 hours ago|||
My guess is that Del Oro would have a competitive advantage in its waste disposal costs.
jaffa2 5 hours ago||
I guess tico fruit is just an asshole. Being sued is usually bad. If you can sue your competitor even better.
bell-cot 5 hours ago||
This being HN - might there be any Costa Rican lawyers in the house?

It would be extremely interesting to hear about the legal merits of the rival company's lawsuit, and the politics of the Supreme Court.

PaulHoule 3 hours ago|
It's the kind of question that I'd rather see answered by an ecologist than a judge!
bell-cot 1 hour ago||
The kind of issue that's better decided by an ecologist than by a judge, true.

My curiosity is about how the legal system got it wrong - simplistic or outdated laws, or clueless or corrupt judges, or some combination, or something else?

mikkupikku 3 hours ago||
> Despite this promising start, the conservation experiment wasn't to last, after a rival juice manufacturer called TicoFruit sued Del Oro, alleging that its competitor had "defiled a national park".

This is why we can't have nice things. Juice company makes compost? Sued! Ford wants to pay his workers a living wage? Sued! Nail lawyers to trees.

Mistletoe 4 hours ago||
Monty Don has said before that really the best and only thing you need for a great garden soil is regular addition of lots of compost. This is it on a very large scale. :)
mrtnmcc 4 hours ago||
Suppose this is the article to give that person who chides you for dropping an orange peel on a hike.
chunkymilk 4 hours ago||
It depends on where the hike is: Dropping an orange peel in a humid, temperate, low-elevation place is vastly different than a desert, high-alpine, tundra or other environment where organics take a long time to decompose.
mrtnmcc 2 hours ago||
I'm mostly joking.. LNT is always the best policy, even if only (sometimes) for the feeling of pristineness.

Honestly orange peels are incredible, the smell, the robustness. It reminds me of the joke of the plastic cup at Whole Foods filled with orange slices. If only there was a natural packaging alternative...

stronglikedan 4 hours ago||
life's too short for friends like that
throwway120385 3 hours ago||
It's apparently long enough for me to see the same orange peel in the same place over a year or two.
comrade1234 5 hours ago|
Why dump the peel when you can use the entire orange to make that nasty orange British drink.