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Posted by phil294 10 hours ago

Bring Back Idiomatic Design(essays.johnloeber.com)
361 points | 173 commentspage 3
layer8 5 hours ago|
One of my pet peeves is that increasingly frequently, pressing Enter to submit a web form doesn’t even universally work anymore. Instead you have to tab to the submit button, and (depending on the web page) have to press Space or Enter to actuate it.

Another annoyance is that many web forms (and desktop apps based on web tech) don’t automatically place the keyboard focus in an input field anymore when first displayed. This is also an antipattern on mobile, that even on screens that only have one or two text inputs, and where the previous action clearly expressed that you want to perform a step that requires entering something, you first have to tap on the input field for the keyboard to appear, so that you can start entering the requested information.

embedding-shape 5 hours ago|
> One of my pet peeves is that increasingly frequently, pressing Enter to submit a web form doesn’t even universally work anymore. Instead you have to tab to the submit button, and (depending on the web page), have to press Space or Enter to actuate it.

The other day I used Safari on a newly setup macOS machine for the first time in probably a decade. Of course wanted to browse HN, and eventually wanted to write a comment. Wrote a bunch of stuff, and by muscle memory, hit tab then enter.

Guess what happened instead of "submitted the comment"? Tab on macOS Safari apparently jumps up to the addressbar (???), and then of course you press Enter so it reloads the page, and everything you wrote disappears. I'm gonna admit, I did the same time just minutes later again, then I gave up using Safari for any sort of browsing and downloaded Firefox instead.

tpmoney 4 hours ago|||
I would argue that behavior is idiomatic for macOS but not idiomatic for web browsers. Keyboard navigation of all elements has never been the default in macOS. Tab moves between input fields, but without turning on other settings, almost never moved between other elements because macOS was a mouse first OS from its earliest days. Web browsers often broke this convention, but Safari has from day one not used tab for full keyboard navigation by default.

And this highlights something that I think the author glosses over a little but is part of why idioms break for a lot of web applications. A lot of the keyboard commands we're used to issue commands to the OS and so their idioms are generally defined by the idioms of the OS. A web application, by nature of being an application within an application, has to try to intercept or override those commands. It's the same problem that linux (and windows) face with key commands shared by their terminals and their GUIs. Is "ctrl-c" copy or interrupt? Depends on what has focus right now, and both are "idiomatic" for their particular environments. macOS neatly sidesteps this for terminals because "ctrl-c" was never used for copy, it was always "cmd-c".

Incidentally, what you're looking for in Safari is either "Press Tab to highlight each item on a webpage" setting in the Advanced settings tab. By default with that off, you would use "opt-Tab" to navigate to all elements.

watermelon0 4 hours ago|||
System Settings -> Keyboard -> and toggle Keyboard navigation.

I'm not sure why this isn't the default, but this allows for UI navigation via keyboard on macOS, including Safari.

kennywinker 7 hours ago||
> You don’t want to have to remember to use CTRL + Shift + C in certain circumstances or right-click → copy in others, that’d be annoying.

laughs in linux wouldn’t that be nice.

davemp 6 hours ago||
I’m a decade+ linux power user and I still do insane things like pipe outputs into vim so I can copy paste without having to remember tmux copy paste modes when I have vertical panes open.
layer8 4 hours ago|||
This is the kind of thing why I still prefer Windows as a UI.
skydhash 6 hours ago|||
Terminal UX existed before the CUA guidelines from IBM. People complains about Ctrl + Shift + C behavior when it exists only in one category of application, terminal emulators.
ux266478 5 hours ago||
Plan 9 fixes this.
xnx 8 hours ago||
My hope is that since tools like Google Stitch have made fancy looking design free that it will become obvious how functionally worthless fancy looking design always was. It used to signal that a site paid a lot of money and was therefore legitimate. Now it signals nothing.
jonahx 8 hours ago||
This is a good point, but there's usually a long tail on transitions like this.
barrkel 4 hours ago||
With some irony, one thing Substack doesn't afford is zooming in to images on mobile.
heftig 4 hours ago|
Firefox on Android can override this via a toggle in the Accessibility settings. Maybe other browsers have something similar?
robertoandred 1 hour ago||
Now we’re blaming React for bad UX?
chapz 7 hours ago||
This kinda hurt. The world is in a rush to be the ASAP, so nobodys interest is to do design good, it needs to be fast. And now we have this sh*tshow.
mcculley 8 hours ago||
The web needs a HIG.

All of these people who keep saying that webapps can replace desktop applications were simply never desktop power users. They don’t know what they don’t know.

andai 7 hours ago||
Yeah it would be nice if the web accessibility guidelines also focused on actually using the thing normally. For example: offsetting the scrollbar from the right edge of the screen by 1px should be punishable by death.
dxdm 8 hours ago||
I think HIG means "Human Interface Guidelines" here. Seems to be an Apple thing.

I wish more people would avoid or at least introduce abbreviations that may be unfamiliar to the audience.

andai 7 hours ago||
Microsoft had one too: WIG!

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22475521

teddyh 7 hours ago||
There are quite a number of them: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_guidelines#Exa...>
andyfilms1 7 hours ago||
And while we're at it, stop with the popups and notifications.

I don't care about the new features in a browser update. Ideally, nothing at all has changed.

I don't want a "tour" of the software I just installed. I, presumably, installed it to do something, and I just want to do that thing.

I don't want to have to select a preference for how a specific action is performed in your software. If it's not what I expected, I will learn it.

And for the love of GOD, nobody wants to subscribe to your newsletter.

bccdee 20 minutes ago|
I actually might want to subscribe to your newsletter, provided I read & enjoy your article. So why does the pop-up always interrupt me before the page has even finished loading?

If you inset an unobtrusive newsletter button 60% of the way through the article, perhaps I'll actually click it (or, more realistically, follow your RSS feed).

sph 6 hours ago|
Shows a picture of Office 2000 and says "The visuals feel a little ugly and dated: it’s blocky, the font isn’t great, and the colors are dull."

Are you serious? Nothing has come close to it. Yeah we have higher resolution screens, but everything else is much less legible and accessible than that screenshot.

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