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Posted by jsomers 3 days ago

The paper computer(jsomers.net)
256 points | 81 comments
pugio 15 hours ago|
Paper Computing (great name!) is something I've been thinking about a lot to help my kids benefit from tech without exposing them to the brain melting addiction of screens. I sacrificed a few crazy nights of sleep to try to build a Paper Computer Agent prototype for a recent Gemini hackathon (only to disappointingly have submission issues right before the actual deadline) which my kids loved and keep asking me to set up permanently for them.

It's essentially a poor man's hacked up DynamicLand - projector, camera, live agent. There are so many things you could do if you had a strong working baseline for this. My kids used it to create stories, learn how to draw various things, and watching safe videos they could hold in their hand.

There's something weirdly compelling and delightfully physical about holding a piece of paper that shows a live rocket launch, with the flames streaming down the page. It could also project targeted pieces of text, such as inline homework advice, or graphs next to data. It doesn't take long to imagine any other number of fun use cases, and it feels a lot more freeing and inspiring than keeping everything bound to a screen.

Github - https://github.com/Pugio/Orly (hacky minimal prototype that did the thing)

Video Pitch - https://youtu.be/-9l1x7GnmxU (filmed an hour before the deadline on an old phone with no sleep)

password4321 7 hours ago||
R.I.P. to the Amazon Glow video calling device, killed before AI went mainstream. I'd love to hear how to get root on one... exactly the hardware your project could use most effectively and an amazing interface for playing games remotely with the grandparents.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/20/23415167/amazon-glow-sup...

nunodonato 10 hours ago|||
this is really cool, I'd love to use something like this for my kids too. Maybe I'll try your project when I have some more free time. Would love to contribute but i'm not very skilled in python.

If you don't mind me asking, what hardware did you use? Especially for the project, I'm guessing it needs to have quite a strong bulb in order to be seen in broad daylight?

kamens 47 minutes ago|||
this is beautiful
jauntywundrkind 1 hour ago|||
I love how creatively ai is integrated in here. Amazing.

The Folk Computer people have some incredible work they've been doing too, that's definitely worth looking at for anyone interested. Their intergation of a novel display technology is really sweet too, allowing for good visibility in a variety of conditions, which I love. https://folkcomputer.substack.com/ https://folk.computer/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39241472 (165 points, 2 years ago, 53 comments)

jauntywundrkind 1 hour ago|||
I love gow creatively ai is integrated in here. Amazing.

The Folk Computer people have some incredible work they've been doing too, that's definitely worth looking at for anyone interested. Their intergation of a novel display technology is really sweet too, allowing for good visibility in a variety of conditions, which I love. https://folkcomputer.substack.com/ https://folk.computer/

mmasu 10 hours ago|||
this is such a great idea! well done
oleggromov 13 hours ago|||
This is lovely.
naravara 1 hour ago|||
I was pretty excited when I saw the premise behind what Apple was doing with VisionPro because I figured they were steering towards this, but it seems they’ve looked away and don’t really care about going deeper into this direction.

I asked at some point if I could theoretically develop an application that could literally be controlled by a Fischer Price toy, like a little plastic car console or something. Or even potentially have a real keyboard that isn’t connected to anything, but the VisionPro can just see my keypresses and apply them as if I was actually pressing something. The former case is possible, but surprisingly difficult, but the latter case isn’t really there yet (requires too much precision and latency is worse than just using a Bluetooth keyboard).

Either way, the idea of a computing environment that meshes with and directly interacts with the real, physical objects around you is an interesting premise I’d like to see taken further with “Spatial Computing”/AR. Scanning and recording things I’m writing on a whiteboard or in a notebook by recognizing that I’ve picked up a pen and am writing something down would just be getting started.

Of course, if we’re ambiently recording everything you’re doing there will need to be some kind of regular process/interface to “sift” everything at the end of the day. This is the core of the Getting Things Done methodology. Everything goes into a big “intake list” and then you do periodic check-ins throughout the day where you review the list and decide whether to move those to a series of sub-lists to “do this now,” “do this soon,” or “do this someday.”

tomalbrc 8 hours ago||
[flagged]
dang 3 hours ago|||
Please don't cross into personal attack on HN.

Edit: you've unfortunately been breaking the site guidelines badly and frequently. Examples (among many others):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47706755

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47603599

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47476320

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47068759

If you keep this up, we're going to have to ban you. I don't want to ban you, so if you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

MisterTea 5 hours ago||||
I think better phrasing such as "Have you considered the ramifications of exposing and normalizing AI for your children?" That is a lot more pleasant than verbally bashing someone with a club like a cave man (Though I get it. sometimes, "og want smash." but keep og in check.)
jdelman 7 hours ago|||
What exactly do you believe to be dangerous? Your comment comes off as judgmental rather than genuine.
cjs_ac 11 hours ago||
> Now that we have actually good AI, I have this vision of a form of computing that doesn’t involve me using a computer so much. Imagine you had the day’s emails to go through. It would be nice if the ones that required a simple decision could be dispatched with a few pen-strokes: I could write down a date that would work for that meeting; check a box to accept that invitation; etc.

This reminds me of those predictions from 1900 about the year 2000, when they thought we'd all live in enormous skyscrapers and get around by flying cars. Instead we moved out to suburbs because improved logistics systems meant we could buy things from suburban shopping centres rather than having to go into city centres. Revolution, not evolution.

Surely the real advantage of an 'actually good AI' would be getting the AI to do the work itself, rather than just allowing the work to be done in a format with which the human is more comfortable. The underlying problem is that there are too many things vying for our attention.

layer8 7 hours ago||
Don’t think of it as work, but of what a human would want to spend time doing. In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47788736, a commentor describes how his kids love using the “paper computer” prototype he built. They are not working, they are playing and learning and experimenting and creating. Things that humans like to do.
WillAdams 9 hours ago|||
To some degree, that's what one had w/ Apple's Newton Intelligence on the MessagePad --- it was "just" fancy pattern-matching, but mostly it worked, and the UI and implementation were quite good, and it kept me organized all through college.
JKCalhoun 7 hours ago||
Mentioning the Newton may be anathema to the discussion (it seems to bring up the usual jokes, etc.) but I was thinking too that the Macintosh (or the Xerox Alto if you like, or the Mother of All Demos) tried to move us in that direction by "skeuomorphising" the computer interface—make it look like the more familiar "real world". The Newton pushed further. It seems to have been on the mind of at least a few people at Apple.

It sounds like the author is on the same track, has the same mindset. And I like.

I am also reminded of the Young Lady's Illustrated Primer: in Neil Stephenson's Diamond Age. It is not exactly what the author describes but, if the book had a computer backend, it also divorces the user from the computer interface we have come to know. Perhaps for me some future (better) local LLM within such a book is what I want. A kind of companion I ask questions of…

(I mean I suppose I should just do what was posted a day or to ago to the Ask HN: and put a local LLM behind a messaging app and I could just converse with it wherever I am. Tangent: I am kind of fascinated by the idea of a personal LLM that has context stretching back to my earliest days—were I to have started conversing with this synthetic companion at a young age. Imagine the lifetime of context where the LLM knows my habits, how I've changed over the years. I suppose this is nightmare fuel for a number of you.)

lamasery 4 hours ago|||
Other copies of the Primer do have a computer backend.

There are basically three versions of the book:

1) The ones developed for a few rich kids. These are partially automated, but backed by gig workers. They get what we might call (if you'll pardon the term) "Actually Indians" AI (augmented by the regular type).

2) The one our protagonist gets. This is one of the books from #1, but the distinctive feature here is that an early gig worker (the book calls these "'ractors" when they're doing this kind of work) the protagonist draws takes a special interest in her and intentionally keeps drawing jobs for her over a period of several years. This continuity and personal care by a single real person is what sets it apart and makes her experience so excellent.

3) The mass-market version that's entirely computerized, no human touch. This version brainwashes a fuckload of kids into becoming the "mouse army", and that's really all we see as far as what it can do: something really bad (if convenient for our protagonist).

The message of the book is 100% the opposite of "automated learning-books are amazing". It's "tech for learning sucks ass and/or is outright dangerous if you rely only on it, and a real human tutor who cares about a kid is the best thing around even in a crazy high-tech future-world".

WillAdams 7 hours ago|||
Charles de Lint had an intelligent book in his fantasy novel _Jack the Giant Killer_ (or maybe its sequel) --- I've tried doing the conversing/chatting thing w/ an LLM a couple of times, but always got annoyed more than amused.

What's the point? LLMs tend towards the mean/average --- I want better in my life and interactions --- it's useful when I need an example DXF or similar rote task, but my current project is a woodworking joint which has no precedent.

Yes, the skeumorphism angle is an interesting one, and one which is surprisingly absent in the _ur_ description of a stylus equipped computing device, the slates/tablets from Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's _The Mote in God's Eye_ --- this sort of thing seems to be coming back around --- a recent Kindle Scribe firmware update add shape recognition. I'd be _very_ pleased if my new Kindle Scribe Coloursoft could fully become a replacement for my Newton....

JKCalhoun 6 hours ago||
I think you're right that the use case for an LLM is still rather niche. It's perhaps still worth exploring though as they may well improve over time.

Regardless, I have still found them useful. Diagnosing the problems with a car is maybe an esoteric example but is still useful.

For many months now I have been working through learning about and implementing a hobbyist analog computer with LLM as engineer-confidant. I already knew the basics of op-amps and analog computing but was surprised at a lot of the new things I discovered only by way of the LLM saying (for example), "Hey, here's a nice way to get your reference voltages…" and the project benefited from it (and I learned about a new chip/device/technique).

WillAdams 5 hours ago||
Yes, they do work well as a stand-in for the "competent technician with skill in the pertinent art and and fully aware of all prior art" (to use wording like to the patent application standard).

But it's only going to allow you to avail oneself of prior art/techniques.

btbuildem 1 hour ago||
> we moved out to suburbs because

Because it was a profit making venture for car companies. Suburbs are horrifically inefficient, they survive by the twisted "communism" of cannibalizing the dense urban tax bases to support the sprawling, expensive to service and maintain, isolating flatlands.

ButlerianJihad 1 hour ago||
Not so fast: I would say that the move to suburbs was initially driven by a thirst for homeownership with luxurious lawns, coupled with electric streetcars and other rail-based transport.

It was only later that the almighty combustion engine and tire companies forcibly replaced streetcars with buses and trucks, that cars began their hegemonic domination of suburbia. The National Highway System decrees didn't hurt, either, but highways were built in the USA with an ulterior motive of national defense.

naravara 1 hour ago||
It also happened during a period where cities were polluted, noisy, and the middle-class housing was largely cramped tenements. Basically all of this has been/is being mitigated these days. City-center housing now looks more like luxury loft living than tenements (though this gives us a big problem with ‘missing middle’ housing where there’s very little housing available that is suitable for families where everything is decrepit slums or luxury 1 and 2 bedroom condos). Pollution has been largely mitigated with catalytic converters and, now, EVs. And electrification helps deal with noise pollution as well through getting rid of engine noise (especially for motorized appliances like leaf-blowers).

Meanwhile, traffic and the stigma around drunk driving (which wasn’t nearly as strong or strictly enforced before the 90s), have quickly taken much of the bloom off the rose of car-dependent lifestyles. I predict the growth of micromobility options will continue to make cities even more attractive as well by improving coverage for areas where transit can’t go and generally improve the throughput of city streets and reduce the space needed for parking cars for people who live within “not-quite walking but feels silly to drive” distance.

The big gap in the US at least is simply a lack of cities! Everything is still concentrated in a handful of legacy urban centers that survived the waves of “urban renewal” and it’s simply too expensive to house all the people who want to live there without turning them into Hong Kong sized megalopolises, which starts to introduce new problems from overwhelming density. “Urban” development patterns need to expand out to more of the country to take demand pressure off the 5 or 6 American cities with decent mass transit.

parsimo2010 4 hours ago||
The author is basically advocating that they want to be an executive with a secretary, but they want the secretary to be AI. I don't use secretary in a pejorative sense, just meaning that the author seems to want someone/something that does simple tasks but lets them make decisions, as opposed to an executive assistant that has a little more self-agency to do things on their own.

They just want OpenClaw with printing and scanning privileges. Every morning OpenClaw prints out a task list or items that need action, the author writes notes/responses, and places it on the scanner. This is basically how my program director worked at my last job. Every morning the secretary would have his schedule printed out, he'd go to meetings and write notes, and would pass by his secretary and stick a note or two on her desk saying "set up a meeting with XYZ org/team within the next few days on ABC topic." The secretary would also print documents/presentations and he'd mark them up throughout the day with changes he wanted made, and he'd drop the documents off when he was done going through them, and the secretary would distribute the documents to their respective POCs to make the changes.

Basically the only thing the author hasn't mentioned that the secretary did is that the secretary also acted as a gatekeeper for access to the program director, either in real-time ("no, you can't go in, they are meeting with a higher level director") or would take a request for a meeting and have enough personal context on whether the director would want the meeting themself or want to see it go through a division chief first. Not sure if OpenClaw can do that, but just about everything else is totally do-able. Not sure if I really want to see someone wasting this much paper just to "feel analog" but I suppose it probably isn't a big deal since most people won't do it this way, and will stick to digital forms of communication with their OpenClaw secretary.

fudged71 45 minutes ago|
Jesse Genet has been posting some cool use cases of OpenClaw for homeschooling that are somewhat along these lines. Using the assistant to inventory the physical manipulables, the curriculum pages, and how they intersect. Printing pages automatically for certain lessons. Updating e-ink screens with other lessons.
gobdovan 13 hours ago||
Mandatory RealTalk/Dynamicland mention [0] [1]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wa3nm0qcfM [1] https://dynamicland.org/

azhenley 16 hours ago||
Reminds me of Paper Website from the Tiny Projects series, discussed back in 2021.

https://daily.tinyprojects.dev/paper_website

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29550812

voidUpdate 13 hours ago|
I actually quite like this idea, especially if you could have an automated ingest system. It could be a good way to let isolated places have a voice online, even if it isn't necessarily very high speed. It's almost like http-over-post or something. You could even have a comments section, and post the comments to the website author
mentalgear 12 hours ago||
> At least then you could mimic in software that thing you get from physical objects—which is that they are usually built to do one, and only one, thing well. My alarm clock, for instance, is just an alarm clock; and that's what I like about it!

UNIX Principle anyone ? Do one thing, and do it well - seems like in this 'age of AI' the industry is rediscovering by detour best practices, decades old, all over again.

But otherwise having 'interfaces' printed out to you and an LLM multi-modal later working from your notes on it sounds really interesting and less stressful than modern 'computing'.

The Office's Michael Scott would be proud - Paper may just be the future of Digital after all!

AlphaWeaver 7 hours ago||
If projects like this and DynamicLand interest you, it's worth checking out https://folk.computer/ - they've been working on this much more recently than DynamicLand and share their code as open source.
ifh-hn 3 hours ago||
Doing the sort of things the author wants to do simply wouldn't work for me. All I end up with is a pile of screwed up paper and nothing to show for it. Drafting and rewriting is so much better when you don't have to worry about making a mess.
charlieboardman 16 hours ago||
Receive email, render page with the email and a reply section and a unique ID, print it out physically

Human picks up all the sheets out of the printer, writes out replies with pen

Human puts the stack of answered email sheets in a multi-page scanner

Scanner physically scans them, agent transcribes them and matches them back to the incoming emails via the unique ID on each sheet, sends replies

You could adjust this flow for anything where human input is just one part of a larger sequence: just add print -> write -> scan into your flow where you'd normally have a human type. It's kind of a rebirth of faxing

grvbck 10 hours ago||
On one of my first qualified jobs, my manager (a lovely older lady) did exactly this. All incoming emails were printed and put into a binder. Then she would go home, write an answer with a pen on the back side of every single one, and on the next day write a new email to the recipient. 10-15 % of all emails she sent this way would bounce because she had written the address incorrectly.

When I showed her the reply button in Eudora (this was in 2001), she was so happy that she bought me a cake.

She struggled with IT but was tack sharp otherwise. So far she's the only boss I've ever really liked.

smj-edison 16 hours ago|||
I will say scanners are somewhat unergonomic, but if you had a high enough definition camera, you could photograph the document in its "natural environment". Granted, it's harder to get an evenly lit picture that way, but I think it's a nicer interface.
lamasery 4 hours ago|||
All of my document "scanning" for the last—god, maybe 15 years?—has been with a phone camera.

Before everyone just started using Docusign anyway, I'd bought houses with a phone "scanner". LOL.

I don't think I started with it, but for a very long time I've had an app called TinyScanner that's good-enough at edge detection, can de-noise or make a document entirely black & white, and can glue multiple pages together into a PDF. The results look better than plenty of flatbed scanner results I've seen, if not as good as the best of those.

The-Bus 31 minutes ago||
I've been using Genius Scan for ~15 years and it also lets you send faxes (via credits you buy). My phone works for 99% of my use cases.
layer8 7 hours ago||||
Scanners with automatic feeders are ergonomic when you have to scan more than a page or two. Just place your stack of paper in the feeder and press start. I had a job where I used to do that routinely, and no way a camera would have been more convenient.
charlieboardman 15 hours ago||||
Fair enough, I actually have been thinking about this topic lately since I have to generate and print and fill out and sign a lot of paper vouchers in my job. I would prefer having a dedicated scanner to just throw them into in a stack with a server/cron job/bash script always watching for new incoming documents rather than a more complex camera setup but yeah something like a camera over your shoulder on your desk could pick up documents too
metaketa 12 hours ago|||
This is fixed by using anoto paper and a supporting pen!
EvanAnderson 13 hours ago||
I always wished I could throw my Pocketmod[0] in the scanner at the end of the day and have a nice new one with any notes I wanted to carry over to the next day freshly printed and waiting in the morning.

[0] https://pocketmod.com/

grimmai143 5 hours ago|
There is something incredibly valuable about forcing yourself to trace execution logic on physical paper. It builds a mental model of state changes and memory that you just don't fully develop when a modern IDE's debugger is doing all the heavy lifting for you.
anthk 20 minutes ago|
Forth and Lisp, easier with S9 than Guile with tons of modules where some Guile libs overlap with SRFI (global standards for every Scheme to follow). You can almost trace Lisp functions by hand.

Ditto with Forth dumping the memory, creating literal structures for numbers and whatnot. Also, the 'see' command among dumping literal memory bytes.

Being both a REPL helps a lot. But Forth gets into a lower level than S9 itself.

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