Top
Best
New

Posted by downbad_ 1 day ago

Good Sleep, Good Learning (2012)(super-memory.com)
312 points | 149 commentspage 2
glerk 1 day ago|
I got 4h of sleep last night which is about my normal average at this time of the year, and I have 0 regrets about it. I also don't sleep at a regular time every day. If I have no other obligations, I naturally let it shift forward (what the article calls "delayed sleep phase"). I am most unhappy when I HAVE TO use an alarm clock and break my own patterns. Last night, I naturally went to sleep right before sunrise and I woke up 4 hours later.

To pre-empt a few objections: I did not need an alarm clock to wake up. I am not taking heavy stimulants other than caffeine at this time. I am not stressed. I am not unhappy. I don't have memory issues (in fact, I am cursed with a very good memory and it is usually harder for me to forget than to remember). I can score above the Mensa bar on an IQ test. I can take an interview. I can give a demo. I can run 10km. I do not have "bipolar disorder" or any such nonsense. I don't need medication. I don't need therapy. I don't need a better mattress. I'm not already in a mental asylum. I'm married with kids, I work a high-paying job, I give to charity and I pay my taxes. In fact, today is tax day, I should probably take care of that instead of getting upset at hacker news comments.

BeetleB 1 day ago||
I would suggest looking into the medical research on the downsides of getting little sleep. After a single night of low sleep (and 4 hours is low), even though you'll feel fine, your body will not process a lot of things the way it normally should (e.g. insulin response is significantly degraded).

Over time, it supposedly significantly increases the likelihood of certain diseases/conditions.

Peter Attia was one of those people who got by with little sleep, and for years, well into his medical career, was dismissive of those who preached the importance of 8 hours of sleep a day. He then looked into the research, and completely changed his mind:

https://peterattiamd.com/category/sleep/

glerk 1 day ago|||
I am not dismissing the research and I am well aware there are tradeoffs. I am aware that low sleep puts extra strain on the brain and the body at large. I am aware of the increased inflammation, decreased CSF draining, cardiovascular issues, appetite issues, insulin tolerance etc. etc. I know that our bodies were optimized by evolution to function better with sleep cycles synced with circadian cycles, and I know that many of these very well optimized processes are put under stress when you sleep less than 6h per night.

Here's the thing: say what I have is a "disease" and currently, the best cure for this disease is a pill that would slow down my thoughts and make me into a bland emotionless vegetable during my waking hours in addition to reducing the amount of waking hours that I get to enjoy. Even if that magic pill buys me 20 extra years of old age at the tail end of my life, is it rational for me to take it in my early 30s?

andai 1 day ago|||
When I was looking into the dual n back stuff a while back, I remember reading one report where the person would feel subjectively fine when sleep deprived, but his nback score would go way down.

In other words it's possible to "feel fine" on little sleep and yet be significantly cognitively impaired. Worth measuring that, if possible.

(It might have been Gwern, he's got a big page on the subject.)

kanbankaren 1 day ago|||
0 regrets now doesn't mean 0 regrets decades later.
glerk 1 day ago||
That's totally fair, and I'll cross that bridge when I get there like everyone else :)

My philosophy is: either I'll live to benefit from technology that can repair the damage caused by aging, in which case health micro-optimizations early in life are not that important, OR this won't be achieved within my lifetime, in which case I prefer a short life with concentrated happiness, vitality and intensity in my youth.

kanbankaren 1 day ago||
There is some new scientific finding that in deep sleep, fluids from the brain drain out and if that flushing doesn't happen, it might lead to Alzheimer's disease.

You should at least monitor your deep sleep using a smartwatch. Less than 1.5 hours and I would be worried.

glerk 1 day ago||
Thanks, I am aware of reduced cerebrospinal fluid flushing as well as the increased neural inflammation in general and I am trying to compensate for that as best as I can.

I am not too worried about Alzheimer's as it tends to start pretty late in life (I think average onset is around mid-60s?). If I get that and we don't have a reliable cure by then, I wouldn't really mind ending it quickly after getting the diagnosis. I'm a bit more worried about heart disease as that tends to hit earlier.

currymj 1 day ago|||
I believe you, but if you are ever in a position of authority, please don't expect anyone else to function well on 4 hours of sleep.
Loic 1 day ago||
You are at one edge of the gaussian curve of the sleep requirements of the human species. The problem is that many think they belong there, but are not. Enjoy what you have and let the haters hate.
djeastm 1 day ago||
How are we meant to read and discuss this page? It's huge!

It seems like we're all just looking at the title and talking about our sleep habits.

integralid 1 day ago||
Most people are also n apparently completely off-topic, as in giving advice completely contradictory to the OP (for example "always go to sleep at the same time alway") without even acknowledging that.
nunodonato 1 day ago||
thats what I was thinking when reading the comments. How the heck have people had time to read it all and comment? I guess not :)

Also, I'm really curious to know if some of it is no longer valid. 14 years is a long time in science

amunozo 1 day ago||
As a Spaniard I am trying to honor my ancestors and nap when I can, but man, it feels almost impossible most of the days. It could be that I am having too much anxiety/stress, too much coffee in the mornings, lack of practice, or maybe all of them. Any experiences related to learning to nap or what worked for you over here?
nsbk 1 day ago||
Fellow Spaniard here. Our ancestors were definitely onto something! I think the most important thing when it comes to napping is to show up: find a comfortable spot, use an eye mask, and set a timer for whatever time you have (I typically do something between 10 to 30 minutes). Just close your eyes and don’t open them until the alarm goes off.

I don’t always nap, but I make sure to do so if I haven’t had enough sleep or when I’m stressed or overworked. The more work I have, the more naps I take. Three back to back meetings? 15 minutes nap for your brain to organize and process the information dump. You get the gist. Doesn’t have to be after lunch, just a few minutes when you need/have them.

I used to do the Dali nap: find a comfortable spot, hold a spoon in your hand, and close your eyes. Once you fall asleep the spoon will fall from your hand and wake you up. That makes sure you go into hypnagogic state, great for problem solving as the brain is in a creativity sweet spot.

The technique I use now is not strictly a nap but a relaxation technique called NSDR: Non-Sleep Deep Rest. It’s kind of a guided meditation that deeply relaxes your body and nervous system. Just 10 minutes can feel as restorative as hours of sleep. You can check Andrew Huberman's scripts or Youtube videos for a more body-hacking, science-backed vive, or channels like are Ally Boothroyd's [0] for a more spiritual take on the concept, also known as Yoga Nidra.

I hope that helps. And best of luck with your napping, honor the ancestors!

[0] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL19-3B-OVYoc1sdjBBKLB...

amunozo 1 day ago||
Thank you so much for your detailed answer! I definitely try to show up, but I am an anxious person and sometimes trying to nap makes me even more anxious. However, it is true that even when I don't manage to sleep it helps relaxing me and giving me some extra energy.

I've also read about NSDR and wanted to try it, so having some sources is really helpful. Do you always practice it with some guided meditation or can you do it on your own? I kind of not like guided meditation. (No reason, it's just that kind of feel wrong. Probably I should just open my mind and try it more.) Thank you so much!

nsbk 1 day ago||
Practice makes perfect! Keep on showing up and it will most likely get easier :)

I currently do not do guided NSDR that much, but it helped a lot at the time learning how to calm my thoughts and become deeply relaxed, especially the Ally guided sessions (as everything else, takes practice) so I would recommend to try the guided ones even if it feels awkward, until you learn how to stop your mind from wandering. I find it helps both with quick reset/recharge naps and falling back asleep if I wake up in the middle of the night (happens often for me).

isolli 1 day ago|||
Set a timer for 20 minutes, lie down (or at least close your eyes) and force yourself to stay motionless until the timer rings. Try to let your thoughts float freely... Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but you should try at least a few times. (And yes, maybe limit yourself to just one coffee in the morning.)
amunozo 1 day ago||
I try, but apart from the coffee (I usually take two, probably the second one interferes with my nap), I think it's the lack of consistency/practice what's making my napping difficult.
criddell 1 day ago||
The relatively late dining hours (9pm or later) in Spain wouldn't work for me at all. I'm an early-to-bed-early-to-rise kind of person and if I eat within 3 or 4 hours of bed time my sleep suffers.
jdreaver 1 day ago||
I learned recently that Spain uses the same timezone as Germany (GMT+2 currently, according to Google) despite the GMT line passing through Spain. I've visited Spain and did feel like we ate late, but the timezone being "wrong" has made me wonder if it would have felt as late if I knew about their timezone while I was there!
logicprog 1 day ago||
I'm extremely sensitive to poor sleep. I also have nothing in my schedule that really prevents me from going to sleep early and sleeping late most of the time, and generally I at least achieve the former. The problem is that I have unbearable horrible nightmares every time I sleep. To the point where going to sleep is akin to going to hell itself, and I generally choose to forcibly wake myself up around like 6 a.m. just to get away from it all. I haven't really figured out a way around this.
mettamage 1 day ago|
I have as a kid. It might help you. As a kid, I instinctively (and later also consciously) have trained myself to become lucid while dreaming. When I become lucid, I gain some power. Then I trained myself to be more powerful in dreams.

For example, I can't fly, but I can (apparently) move the whole universe by a specific offset. I can also change the specific offset at a specific motion. So basically, I don't have flying powers, but I do have the powers of treating my dream like a Unity3D scene. And in that way, I can mimic flight.

I can also turn into a monster myself, usually into a worse monster than whatever I'm facing. I have become my nightmare's nightmare at certain points.

Nowadays though, whenever a nightmare hit I'm just unfazed. What also helps is that I let my nightmare and the creatures within it know that I am immortal. No matter what they do to me. In my dreams I am The Beginning and The End. I am all that will be there. They are there because of me. I'm essentially the only god that there is (I'm not religious but as far as my dreams are concerned, I am a god).

That throws off quite a lot of nightmares. The ones that persist, it's fine. They can test my immortality.

logicprog 1 day ago||
I've trained myself to have powers in the dream, but I rarely, fully know that it's a dream, so it doesn't really help when it's all psychological.
munksbeer 1 day ago|||
Can I just say that I agree with the other poster. I used to have a lot of nightmares. I didn't do it purposely, but I did figure out that lucid dreaming was the way to solve that issue.

I got interested in lucid dreaming for its own sake, and trained myself for it. I did all the common stuff in the guides, and eventually I had a habit of many times a day rubbing the back of my hand or something else tactile and asking myself if I was dreaming. After quite some time it did start to actually work in my dreams. I would frequently become "aware" in my dream and realise I was dreaming, and in my dream I would dream I would have control, but once I woke up it didn't even really feel like I had full control. It was not the experience I had been expecting, where everything becomes clearer, you can literally consciously control the dream. It was more like dreaming that I knew I was dreaming, and then controlling the dream, but I could never quite control it to the full extent I wanted to. No matter how much I practiced, this is all I achieved.

However, it wasn't nothing. It did let me start to realise I was dreaming in nightmares, and immediately just change them and become "in control" to the point where I could push back on whatever the nightmare was about, dictate on my terms. It still wasn't full lucid/awake control, but it was enough that I become the power in the dream, not the subject of the nightmare.

I really encourage you to keep trying. It took a lot of repetition during the day for the habit to finally enter my dreams. A lot more than I expected. But it did eventually work, to the extent I mentioned.

LawrenceKerr 14 hours ago||
It's incredible when it finally clicks.

Arguably the best thing you can do is simply keep a dream journal (aside from deliberately waking up in the middle of the night and falling asleep with a clear intention - but that is more invasive in one's schedule and can also trigger nightmares).

munksbeer 12 hours ago||
You're right, I forgot to mention this. The dream journal was also a big part.
mettamage 1 day ago|||
You can train for that. There are enough guides on the internet how to do it
LZ_Khan 1 day ago||
Is the author suggesting people to have to live with going through a phase of being nocturnal? In the free running algorithm, we're supposed to sleep 15 minutes later each day until we're falling asleep at like 9AM?

That's just incompatible with modern life right?

Unai 1 day ago||
I once tried an extreme version of this. I became single and I already didn't have a fixed work schedule, so other than societal convention there was no reason for me to adhere to any regular day-night cycle.

So I tried sleeping when I was really tired, waking up without an alarm, eating when I was hungry, etc. I ignored watches, daylight and society. For context, my internal days have always been much longer than 24 hours, often finding myself going to sleep at sunrise; so I thought this was gonna be great, not having to spend an hour awake in bed.

It was horrible. And I mean HORRIBLE. I became a zombie, even though I was sleeping more than ever. I felt deeply depressed within two days. I lost all concept of the passage of time, and could never tell how long ago something had happened. I couldn't think properly or comunicate with other people. It affected me physically too, my weight, my stomach.

The experiment didn't last long. But I couldn't tell you how long.

dingdongditchme 1 day ago||
Hopefully you made it out of it, but I have to say that was a hilarious read! As not a stranger to pseudorandom sleep cycles I can relate.
veritat14 1 day ago|||
I believe Mathew Walker writes in 'Why we sleep' that people's natural circadian cycle varies but on average is 24h and 15 minutes. But yeah sounds pretty inconvenient for most people.
the_pwner224 1 day ago||
That part didn't make any sense to me either. Yes, the natural circadian cycle in a vacuum is slightly over 24 hours, but exposure to light keeps it synced to the normal 24-hour day. If you free run sleep your cycle should stay locked to 24 hours, just like it has always been with our ancestors who lived without artificial light.
alvsilvao 1 day ago||
Putting my laptop to sleep unfortunately didn't increase its memory
profstasiak 1 day ago||
I stopped drinking caffeine and sudenly I remember everything
hani1808 1 day ago|
[dead]
More comments...