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Posted by jilles 7 hours ago

Cloudflare Email Service(blog.cloudflare.com)
348 points | 154 comments
Meekro 5 hours ago|
I'm not sure why this announcement has generated so much irritation in the comments-- Cloudflare has been transitioning from "DDoS protection" to "AWS competitor" for many years now, and this is just their alternative to AWS SES.

It's an email sender that you can access through an API, or directly through Workers. For those who haven't been keeping up over the years, Workers is their product for running code on Cloudflare's platform directly (an AWS Lambda competitor, more or less) and they've been trying to make it the centerpiece of an ecosystem where you deploy your code to their platform and get access to a variety of tools: databases, storage, streaming, AI, and now email sending. All of this is stuff that AWS has had for years, but some people like Cloudflare more (I certainly do).

One thing that surprised me is the price-- Cloudflare's cloud offerings are usually much cheaper, and I've saved plenty of money by migrating from AWS S3 to Cloudflare's R2. This new offering is 3x the AWS price, though. Weird. Anyway, most small companies don't send enough email for it to matter.

But getting back to the consensus in the comments here: I'm not sure why people think that they'll be worse about policing spam than AWS SES, Azure Email, etc.

embedding-shape 5 hours ago||
> But getting back to the consensus in the comments here: I'm not sure why people think that they'll be worse about policing spam than AWS SES, Azure Email, etc.

Cloudflare is (in)famous for not acting against spammers, fraud, piracy and other less savory groups that are hosting their stuff at/behind Cloudflare, so reasonably, people who've been affected by that are now afraid the same thing will happen with email.

ttul 4 hours ago|||
When it comes to email delivery, you can't ignore spam. It's the bane of existence of every email sending service and the number one business challenge in that segment. After all, orchestrating delivery over SMTP is not rocket science. But getting that email to not be rejected totally IS rocket science and it's simultaneously an art form known only to a handful of email nerds working at the core of the big email sending services...
embedding-shape 4 hours ago||
Ok, but what about as a CDN/website-proxy/WAF? I know we don't have the same automated reputation-propagation as with email, but same thing supposedly happens there, where eventually you get turned off if you don't act on lawful requests, which is exactly why Cloudflare is unavailable in Spain during La Liga matches, because Cloudflare don't take piracy streams down.

In theory, Cloudflare should take those down, when requested by legal means, but that doesn't matter. How sure are we that they'll act differently for email, instead of trying to get rid of the reputation system instead?

> getting that email to not be rejected totally IS rocket science and it's simultaneously an art form known only to a handful of email nerds working at the core of the big email sending services

It really isn't, you need a clean IP and a clean domain, send handful of emails and you're pretty much whitelisted on most services out there. Maybe you'd say I'm one of the handful, but I personally know more than a handful others who also run their own email services, just like me, and besides the usual hassle of running your own service, as long as you don't spam, your emails will arrive as usual.

ttul 3 hours ago|||
I run an email sending service at scale (billions of messages per month, tens of millions of end users, thousands of customers). Most of our software development and operational effort revolves around abuse mitigation. That has been the case for 15 years. It's a cat-and-mouse game with two different mice: the senders, who are constantly trying to figure out how to get you to deliver their garbage; and the receivers, who are constantly trying to figure out how to block it. We're stuck in the middle.

It's hard to appreciate how difficult this battle is when running at scale.

embedding-shape 30 minutes ago|||
Right, I won't disagree with any of that, but I'm not sure how it's related to what I wrote either. Maybe I should have been more specific that I'm talking about hosting your own email, not hosting emails for others, which brings out a lot of other types of problems.
pbronez 3 hours ago|||
What structural changes could we make to improve the situation?
edoceo 3 hours ago|||
Signed senders?
jgalt212 2 hours ago||||
Hashcash, or BTC.
b112 2 hours ago|||
It's simple, there's a standard, a new one, which takes into account SPF, DKIM, DMARC, ARC, and even DANE along with upcoming and purposed SPKF, DKIM+, DMARC2, and ARCv4. It should fix just about everything.
pocksuppet 3 hours ago|||
Cloudflare acts on lawful requests during LaLiga matches. The problem is that the Spanish government doesn't want to bother doing things the lawful way because that takes too long. They want piracy to magically disappear and they'll randomly shut down more parts of the internet until it does. Actual illegal sports streams are not impacted by Cloudflare being down, and Cloudflare is not the only impacted network.
embedding-shape 29 minutes ago||
> problem is that the Spanish government doesn't want to bother doing things the lawful way because that takes too long

In Spain, what they are doing, is the "lawful way", it's literally happening via the courts and judges. Do you think ISPs are blocking Cloudflare specifically just for fun, out of their own accord?

> Actual illegal sports streams are not impacted by Cloudflare being down, and Cloudflare is not the only impacted network.

Some are, many aren't. Cloudflare is indeed the only impacted network, at least for me. Which other networks are being blocked for you during the La Liga matches?

thomas_gauvin 4 hours ago|||
Blog author chiming in here:

We have reserved IPs for Email Service and will be protecting the reputation and fighting spam from originating on Email Service.

If we did not do so, our IPs would get flagged and then emails end up in spam or not delivered. That defeats the purpose of having a transactional Email Service. We're well aware of this.

embedding-shape 4 hours ago|||
Will you also do this for other spammers using Cloudflare infrastructure, or just specifically for this email product?

> For years, Spamhaus has observed abusive activity facilitated by Cloudflare’s various services. Cybercriminals have been exploiting these legitimate services to mask activities and enhance their malicious operations, a tactic referred to as living off trusted services (LOTS) [2].

> With 1201 unresolved Spamhaus Blocklist (SBL) listings [3], it is clear that the state of affairs at Cloudflare’s Connectivity Cloud looks less than optimal from an abuse-handling perspective. 10.05% of all domains listed on Spamhaus’s Domain Blocklist (DBL), which indicates signs of spam or malicious activity, are on Cloudflare nameservers

https://www.spamhaus.org/resource-hub/service-providers/too-...

Meekro 4 hours ago||
I would note that Cloudflare has been doing better-- the SBL listings page mentioned in that article[1] shows only 47 active complaints, down from 1201 when the article was written 2 years ago. Many of those complaints are stale, too: I spot-checked a few (referencing the domains fireplacecoffee.com and expansionus.com) and the domains are expired and not being hosted by anyone.

[1] https://check.spamhaus.org/sbl/listings/cloudflare.com/

Bender 3 hours ago||||
As someone that has managed very large outbound transactional email environments, email campaign platforms and some corporate email I just wanted to wish Cloudflare the best of luck on this endeavor. This is an entirely different animal from anything related to a CDN. Stay vigilant and don't let the cute and fuzzy bunnies ruin it for everyone else. They are evil and mischievous and will do whatever they technically can do.
chinathrow 1 hour ago||||
> We're well aware of this.

Then how about not market it as "for agents" when said agents are just LLM output?

themafia 43 minutes ago||||
So what are the thresholds?

For example with SES I will get automatically suspended if my bounce rate is more than 10% or if my complaint rate is more than 0.1%.

wang_li 4 hours ago|||
I think you should put your money where your mouth is. For each spam message sent to a recipient server, you send $1000 to the recipient.
sixhobbits 5 hours ago|||
I'm not sure if it's a correct impression but my impression is still that AWS is the "devil you know" and Cloudflare is less predictable with more individual decision making from high ups.

I guess they got that reputation years ago when the founders (?) got into public spats about what they would and wouldn't host. AWS is more lawyers and committees and seems more anonymous, so people don't necessarily like it more but they do trust it to be what it looks like more.

Probably just a function of time and size.

pocksuppet 3 hours ago||
Cloudflare will predictably shut down your account until you pay $150k. They will not transfer out any of your domains or files - they will be inaccessible until you pay $150k.
b2m9 3 hours ago||
Excuse me, what are you referring to?
foolswisdom 3 hours ago|||
There have been stories about people with heavy internet traffic (generally media streaming I think) being more or less shut down unless they upgrade their cloudflare plan (to enterprise I guess). Some were posted on HN in the past.
NoahZuniga 1 hour ago||
And a gambling site
navigate8310 3 hours ago|||
I've used their email relay services to forward it to my Microsoft account, every forward is rejected by Microsoft due to spam generated by Cloudflare. So I don't have much faith at least in their email services.
tracker1 2 hours ago||
Of all email services, delivery to MS hosted systems is absolutely the worst to deal with. It's completely opaque and almost impossible to resolve most of the time. They tend to direct you to paid channels to try to mitigate issues instead of actually responding to complaints for false positive flagging as spam.

For my small, personal email server, I just gave up on trying... I can deliver to Gmail and every other major email provider without issue, and even MS seems to be split into a couple different backing orgs.

Onavo 4 hours ago|||
> Cloudflare's cloud offerings are usually much cheaper, and I've saved plenty of money by migrating from AWS S3 to Cloudflare's R2. This new offering is 3x the AWS price, though. Weird. Anyway, most small companies don't send enough email for it to matter.

For certain types of marketing and transactional emails, it's cheaper I think. AWS SES pricing doesn't include attachments. If you assume a maxed out 25MB email attachment body, I think the price comes out to be mostly similar, amortized at least.

But if you are sending basic text/mostly text transactional emails for stuff like password resets, then SES comes out ahead for sure.

EGreg 1 hour ago|||
Can Cloudflare do an SMS service? That would be something :)
password4321 4 hours ago|||
Cloudflare is spending years of goodwill earned through technical skill, trending towards AI enshittification starting with their blog posts and vibe coded features/products.
gpi 3 hours ago|||
Unfortunate situation. Also, what is cloudflare exactly? They seemed to have diversified a tad much.
foresto 3 hours ago|||
> what is cloudflare exactly?

Man-in-the-middle and gatekeeper of (large parts of) the web.

It's getting harder and harder to participate online without being subject to their surveillance and/or approval.

gpi 3 hours ago||
That's a good way to put it.
pfortuny 1 hour ago|||
Cloudflare is, believe it or not, the owner of several IP blocked by Telefonica in Spain durong football matches. Soon to be tennis, basket, too.
Meekro 4 hours ago|||
I also kind of rolled my eyes at the blog post and its obsessive focus on "agents" -- definitely feels like a solution looking for a problem. But the email-sending product being promoted is probably ok, right? They just happened to write a lot of words observing that ChatGPT can, in fact, call sendmail() through their platform (if you give it access) -- a fact that shouldn't surprise anyone.
thomas_gauvin 4 hours ago|||
Blog author chiming in:

Our initial blog covered most of Email Service's API and what you can expect from it in terms of deliverability, DNS records setup, etc. https://blog.cloudflare.com/email-service/

Email Service can definitely be used as a transactional email API, and it has everything you would expect like SDKs, binding, observability and more coming on the way

The agent angle in this post reflects what we're actually seeing from developers during our private beta. And the idea that an agent can have an inbox to communicate is a new piece in the developer toolbelt.

Meekro 4 hours ago|||
Thanks for the clarification! Sounds like some developers, including your beta users, are experimenting with new ideas (which includes plugging agents into different workflows to see what happens), while old farts like myself bemoan AI getting plugged into everything and every app sprouting "Ask AI" buttons that they never asked for or wanted.

I can definitely understand some of the ire-- people are probably imagining how they'll try to contact Verizon and will get back a totally unhelpful email from ChatGPT when all they wanted was to talk to a real human for 5 minutes. Your blog post about hooking up agents to email probably speaks to that fear.

fernandotakai 4 hours ago||||
>The agent angle in this post reflects what we're actually seeing from developers during our private beta.

legit question: did you invite anyone that isn't doing agentic whatever during your beta?

tracker1 2 hours ago|||
It's most likely people doing active development, willing to experiment on a test/beta platform... which probably correlates strongly with those testing/trying agent based workflows.
Meekro 4 hours ago|||
Thomas can probably speak to this better, but as someone who has participated in other Cloudflare betas: there's usually a button or a form and you can request access.
dbbk 4 hours ago|||
It's just email man you do not need to throw an AI buzzword in front of everything
gardnr 4 hours ago|||
It's like the author handed the copy to the editor who then added a new broken sentence after each original sentence that somehow jams "agents" in there.
Joel_Mckay 5 hours ago|||
Almost every SaaS (Spam as a Service) API ends up arguing its minority of legitimate users are a justified excuse for the majority of nuisance traffic.

Most cloud IP blocks already have very poor reputations, and or already on Spamhaus blacklists.

People have a right to choose to be upset. =3

Meekro 4 hours ago||
My experience has been the opposite of what you're saying: AWS SES (one of AWS's flagship products, and probably the biggest email sender in the world) is a pretty responsible anti-spam citizen. Spamhaus even wrote this article[1] praising SES's anti-spam efforts. From the article: "Amazon SES has a long-standing relationship with Spamhaus, working closely to prevent suspicious IPs and domains from impacting their network." Though I'm sure that new incidents come up daily, Spamhaus themselves seem to disagree with the notion that SES's IP blocks have "poor reputations."

[1] https://www.spamhaus.org/resource-hub/service-providers/how-...

Joel_Mckay 4 hours ago||
Whatever IP people temporarily host on a cloud incurs the prior users reputation.

Again, using legitimate traffic to shim network spam is a common counterargument against black listing.

Of the approximate 274000 banned hosts I stare at... many nuisances are from Amazon, Azure, digital ocean, and Hetzner. I am sure Maildrill or Mailchimp does have legitimate use cases, but generally the majority of the traffic suggests otherwise. I am certainly biased in this opinion. =3

tracker1 2 hours ago||
Are those hosts using hosted VPS instances, or are they sending through SES? There's a pretty significant difference... FWIW, I get why a lot of VPSes simply block email hosting altogether. It makes it a bit harder for me to find a host for my own small server, but I do understand the pain. Some services are better or worse, and I can imagine at the scale of many cloud hosts, trying to keep the IPs for general hosting out of blocklists would impact the bottom line more than reputational damage for a handful of legit email hosting accounts.

TBF, the demo app referenced in TFA and depending on how many emails you actually send for however many domains may well be a better option for me than my small MTA server.

arpinum 3 hours ago||
The pricing is disappointing. I'm surprised Cloudflare has not tried to compete on price against AWS lately after a good start with R2. Queues, database storage, database writes, worker invocation all more expensive than the AWS offering.
nope1000 5 hours ago||
It's funny. All the examples they show in the blogpost are just things that were already pretty easy without agents. Sending an email when the CI pipeline passes, when a support request is incoming, when an order is shipped. I think we haven't found a problem for this solution.
written-beyond 4 hours ago|
The problem is how bullshit transactional emails are when you're outside of AWS. If you're not expecting to use 10,000 emails a month but would like the option to go over the free tier without committing to 10,000 more. Just let me pay per use FFS.
jedberg 3 hours ago|||
The reason AWS does that is because there is a lot of base level work to verify you as "not a spammer" and to keep verifying you. So this is their way of making sure you pay the base cost.

They could price per use, but it would have to start with a base fee that is about the same at 10,000 emails.

written-beyond 2 hours ago||
The base fee doesn't need to be monthly, they can take $50 dollars as a one time registration verification fee. That should be enough to cover their compute costs for the year, specially when you pool in that from multiple customers. Who is spamming with 100 monthly emails? How much compute do they need to verify you aren't spamming. They can bake all of that into the pay per use price, they choose not to and I'm glad cloudflare is offering this.
jedberg 1 hour ago||
Maintaining the reputation of an IP address is the issue here. If one bad actor sends just a few emails that get marked as spam, the entire IP gets marked as bad. That's basically what you're paying for.

Also, the person who just wants to send a few 100 emails a month is actually far more likely to be a spammer. So it's also a way for them to eliminate those folks.

And lastly, the support burden can be high.

AWS has basically said they only want serious customers, let the other guys worry about the small senders.

purrcat259 1 hour ago|||
Scaleway TEM offer pay per use. I moved off of resend when my side project went beyond their free tier and now pay <0.5€ a month
freefaler 5 hours ago||
A classic "the tragedy of the commons" with the SMTP protocol.

When the cost of spamming is near 0.00, all open platforms will be abused to the tilt. We have seen the email channel get less and less reliable with our own clients (password recovery, notifications and etc).

This might evolve into a couple of oligopolies (Microsoft 365 Outlook, Google Gmail, may be some legacy email providers like Yahoo) and if you want delivery you'd need to pay them, because they'd be the verifiers that you're not a spammer.

And these platforms will have a hell of time to fight the spammers that will create millions of email addresses and spam trough them.

Youden 5 hours ago||
I don't think the protocol is necessarily the problem. For example we don't say the HTTP protocol is the problem when spammers abuse website comment forms or forums, we say it's the server on the other side.

I think the answer is somewhat the same as where we've gone with many HTTP servers: proof of work. Just like Captcha and more recently Cloudflare turnstile required you complete a task before you'd be able to access as website, senders should be required to complete a task before you'll accept their email.

It can even be a sliding scale: the higher you want the chances of the recipient seeing it to be, the more work you need to do.

However this also break emails considered "legitimate" by businesses, like marketing newsletters and other nonsense, which is why it'll likely never happen.

freefaler 3 hours ago||
The legacy compatibility of the protocol has brought all the hacks on top of it for identity verification like SPF, DMARC, DKIM ...

Even with those, the amount of farmed accounts from a reputable platforms is still high, and it will go higher with the cheap AI targeting that will make the texts much more well crafted and spam filters much more aggressive.

My other conjecture is that the big mail providers would have enough data to catch the spammers based on a number of signals.

xhkkffbf 5 hours ago|||
I've gotten my email routed to spam even though it never left the Google cloud. They don't say, "Gosh, this is coming from inside the house. Therefore it's trustworthy." Nope. The push legit mail from other Google hosted domains into spam without a second thought.
nutjob2 5 hours ago||
I've had emails from Google end up in spam and I'm using Google Workspace, it's driven by what people flag as spam, not domain trust.
ajsnigrutin 5 hours ago||
I'd be happy if we at least started punishing the large, well known and established companies for spamming us...

...you know the one, where you have email preferences, and you only have "new messages" and "commercial offers" in the settings, and you uncheck the "commercial offers" and think you're sae. Then you get a spam email from them... check the preferences again, and there's a "new product notification" preference, checked by default, and you uncheck that too. Bam! another spam! "personalized offers" option appeared, check by default. "limited time offers". "value deals", etc.

gck1 31 minutes ago||
Not all email automation is spam and if you want your emails to not end up in spam folder, you pretty much have to go with Google Workspace and pay for essentially entire business suite when you just want to send emails. I needed something like this for my project and it's pretty much Google Workspace or nothing.

Cloudflare just filled a huge gap.

ghoshbishakh 6 hours ago||
Pricing:

$0.35 per 1,000 emails

Here are the limits:

"Your account may have daily sending limits based on Cloudflare's assessment of your account standing. "

Source: https://developers.cloudflare.com/email-service/platform/pri... https://developers.cloudflare.com/email-service/platform/lim...

pier25 1 hour ago|
Pretty good pricing.

Currently using ZeptoMail ($2.5 per 10,000 emails) but if this service by Cloudflare proves reliable once it reaches GA I'd be happy to switch.

ghoshbishakh 17 minutes ago||
Why not use SES?
hardsnow 5 hours ago||
I seriously think this great! I’ve been saying that email is the right interface for agents for a while now. It is available anywhere, natively threaded, and works for asynchronous long-form communication. Comes with great clients as well.

I’ve been developing last three months by emailing Claude, with email threads mapping to an isolated workspace and claude -p. Works super well, especially when trying to get some coding done between everything else.

With right CLAUDE.md and a bit of workflow tooling this extends itself to building other kinds of agents as well. For example, I do my bookkeeping by emailing Claude my statements and receipts, which it then imports into a plain-text accounting system. And we’ve proven this in corporate environment as well, creating agent that can troubleshoot more complex issues by correlating diagnostic logs against product source code.

Once the basic “email agent” infrastructure is there, creating new agents becomes super simple.

moribvndvs 6 hours ago||
While we’re adding antiquated and shitty ways to interface with your agent, can we add fax support? Maybe direct-to-mail service for postcards and flyers?
tclancy 5 hours ago||
I knew I hung onto that C64 cassette player for a reason! Beyond the new Sturgill album, I mean.
verdverm 5 hours ago|||
This has been possible for many years, before agents were a thing. They will open the mail and scan the contents into a pdf for you, requires filing a form with the post office. It gets expensive because they nickel and dime you where they can. There are many more services should you wish to send snail mail.

https://www.virtualpostmail.com/

doublerabbit 5 hours ago||
Can we go minidisc if we're going for obsolete tech?
TechSquidTV 5 hours ago||
I feel like a lot of folks down here are focusing too much on the agent part. That's purely marketing. No one who worked on the service, I am sure, was building exclusively for agent usage.

This is simply the framing device that all marketing needs to present these days.

bakugo 5 hours ago|
Of course it's just marketing, but that doesn't mean it's above criticism, especially when it's shoved so hard down our throats.

"Please stop talking about the thing we can't stop talking about"

woodylondon 3 hours ago||
I would pay for Cloudflare Workers Paid ($5) in a heartbeat and currently use the free version of cloudflare for all my DNS / Hosting etc. Where it does not meet my needs i have Dokpoly + Digital Ocean. I would use CloudFlare Containers. I currently pay for resend.com for all my email API needs.

The problem is that once you're on the paid plan, you're exposed to unlimited risk if your worker goes crazy due to a stupid code bug or if you're hacked. As a solo dev, it's a risk I simply cannot take; I could wake to a bankruptcy bill from Cloudflare. Even as a company, an employee could sign you up and your accounts team would have no idea of the risk.

I am using Supabase at the moment, and see they have a hard cap now. and so does Vercel after they had some nightmare stories of large bills in the past.

I am not sure why / what CloudFlare think about this - or simply dont care.

laurisbernhart 25 minutes ago||
100% agree. Spending limits for Workers would be a game changer.

There are many services I wanted to use Workers for but ended up with some self hosted service simply because I can't properly limit my monetary risk here.

NicoJuicy 3 hours ago||
They are working on it

Source : post on x from an employee

Side note: the bills from cloudflare are much lower than the ones from AWS/Vercel when there's a mistake. The most I saw passing by was 150€, with Vercel and AWS > 10 k.

tornikeo 6 hours ago|
Oof. I know of a startup that recently Show HN'd here, the agent mail.to, that is NOT having a good time right now. I don't know what all these new startups having moats thinner than Durex are thinking -- like, what the plan if someone does what you do, faster and cheaper?
bridgetburch 3 hours ago||
I'm building something similar (Dead Simple Email - same category, different pricing structure). The moat criticism is fair and worth being honest about. The defensible part isn't the feature set, it's infrastructure and price. We run our own mail servers rather than reselling SES, which gives us direct control over deliverability and costs. That's what lets us charge $29/mo for 100 inboxes where AgentMail is at $200. Whether that's a real moat or just a head start is a legitimate question. Email deliverability is genuinely hard to get right at scale, but I can't say with confidence they won't eventually just absorb this. Building fast and staying cheap is the only real answer I have to that.
FlyingSnake 2 hours ago|||
“Each agent gets its own identity from a single domain.“ That too on the edge, along with the futuristic CF Dev primitives.

I had the same thought when I read this part. The $6MM investment on Agent Mail is in serious trouble right now.

nozzlegear 5 hours ago|||
> new startups having moats thinner than Durex are thinking

Haha, great visual. Really illustrative of what these AI startups and bootstrapped indie developers are dealing with (and, if I had to guess, why most of them don't go anywhere).

CWwdcdk7h 5 hours ago|||
> We raised $6M in Seed Funding

Well that part was impressive. It looks like they focused on receiving emails, that is probably even worse, as I expect OpenAI/Anthropic to add such ability directly to agents, if it really is useful.

Kye 5 hours ago|||
Classic "is this a feature or a product?" problem. You're going to have a bad time if you spend all your effort on a feature and nothing to set it apart.
delfinom 6 hours ago|||
Write an angry blog post about how big business is using their power to kill their _totally_ unique original idea that nobody could possibly copy in a hour?
Hendrikto 6 hours ago||
The plan is to have exited by then. These people are mostly just grifters.
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