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Posted by aray07 12 hours ago

Measuring Claude 4.7's tokenizer costs(www.claudecodecamp.com)
543 points | 376 commentspage 3
technotony 10 hours ago|
Not only that but they seem to have cut my plan ability to use Sonnet too. I have a routine that used to use about 40% of my 5 hour max plan tokens, then since yesterday it gets stopped because it uses the whole 100%. Anyone else experience this?
mfro 10 hours ago|
yeah it seems like sonnet 4.6 burns thru tokens crazy fast. I did one prompt, sonnet misunderstood it as 'generate an image of this' and used all of my free tokens.
Yukonv 10 hours ago||
Some broad assumptions are being made that plans give you a precise equivalent to API cost. This is not the case with reverse engineering plan usage showing cached input is free [0]. If you re-run the math removing cached input the usage cost is ~5-34% more. Was the token plan budget increase [1] proportional to account for this? Can’t say with certainty. Those paying API costs though the price hike is real.

[0] https://she-llac.com/claude-limits

[1] https://xcancel.com/bcherny/status/2044839936235553167

adaptive_loop 10 hours ago||
Every time a new model comes out, I'm left guessing what it means for my token budget in order to sustain the quality of output I'm getting. And it varies unpredictably each time. Beyond token efficiency, we need benchmarks to measure model output quality per token consumed for a diverse set of multi-turn conversation scenarios. Measuring single exchanges is not just synthetic, it's unrealistic. Without good cost/quality trade-off measures, every model upgrade feels like a gamble.
bityard 9 hours ago||
The company I work for provides all engineering employees with a Claude subscription. My job isn't writing (much) code, and we have Copilot with MS Office, plus multiple internal AI tools on top of that. So I'm free to do low-stakes experiments on Claude without having to worry about hitting my monthly usage limit.

I am finding that for complex tasks, Claude's quality of output varies _tremendously_ with repeated runs of the same model and prompt. For example, last week I wrote up (with my own brain and keyboard) a somewhat detailed plain english spec of a work-related productivity app that I've always wanted but never had the time to write. It was roughly the length of an average college essay. The first thing I asked Claude to do was not write any code, but come up with a more formal design and implementation plan based on the requirements that I gave. The idea was to then hand _that_ to Claude and say, okay, now build it.

I used Opus 4.6 with High reasoning for all of this and did not change any model settings between runs.

The first run was overall _amazing_. It was detailed, well-written, contained everything that I asked for. The only drawback was that I was ambiguous on a couple of points which meant that the model went off and designed something in a way that I wasn't expecting and didn't intend. So I cleared that up in my prompt, and instead of keeping the context and building on what was already there, I started a new chat and had it start again from scratch.

What it wrote the second time was _far_ less impressive. The writing was terse, there was a lot less detail, the pretty dependency charts and various tables it made the first time were all gone. Lots of stuff was underspecified or outright missing.

New chat, start again. Similar results as the second run, maybe a bit worse. It also started _writing code_ which was something I told it NOT to do. At this point I'm starting to panic a little because I'm sure I didn't add, "oh, and make it crappy" to the prompt and I was a little angry about not saving the first iteration since it was fairly close to what I had wanted anyway.

I decided to try one last time and it finally gave me back something within about 95% of the first run in terms of quality, but with all the problems fixed. So, I was (finally) happy with that, and it used that to generate the application surprisingly well, with only a few issues that should not be too hard to fix after the fact.

So I guess 4th time was a charm, and the fare was about $7 in tokens to get there.

therobots927 10 hours ago||
That’s the joy of purchasing an intangible and non-deterministic product. The profit margin is completely within the vendor’s control and quality is hard for users to measure.
jstummbillig 7 hours ago||
"One session" is not a very interesting unit of work. What I am interested in is how much less work I am required to do, to get the results I want.

This is not so much about my instructions being followed more closely. It's the LLM being smarter about what's going on and for example saving me time on unnecessary expeditions. This is where models have been most notably been getting better to my experience. Understanding the bigger picture. Applying taste.

It's harder to measure, of course, but, at least for my coding needs, there is still a lot of room here.

If one session costs an additional 20% that's completely fine, if that session gets me 20% closer to a finished product (or: not 20% further away). Even 10% closer would probably still be entirely fine, given how cheap it is.

sysmax 10 hours ago||
Well, LLMs are priced per token, and most of the tokens are just echoing back the old code with minimal changes. So, a lot of the cost is actually paying for the LLM to echo back the same code.

Except, it's not that trivial to solve. I tried experimenting with asking the model to first give a list of symbols it will modify, and then just write the modified symbols. The results were OK, but less refined than when it echoes back the entire file.

The way I see it is that when you echo back the entire file, the process of thinking "should I do an edit here" is distributed over a longer span, so it has more room to make a good decision. Like instead of asking "which 2 of the 10 functions should you change" you're asking it "should you change method1? what about method2? what about method3?", etc., and that puts less pressure on the LLM.

Except, currently we are effectively paying for the LLM to make that decision for *every token*, which is terribly inefficient. So, there has to be some middle ground between expensively echoing back thousands of unchanged tokens and giving an error-ridden high-level summary. We just haven't found that middle ground yet.

mmastrac 10 hours ago||
I think the ideal way for these LLMs to work will be using AST-level changes instead of "let me edit this file".

grit.io was working on this years ago, not sure if they are still alive/around, but I liked their approach (just had a very buggy transformer/language).

gruez 10 hours ago||
>and most of the tokens are just echoing back the old code with minimal changes

I thought coding harnesses provided tools to apply diffs so the LLM didn't have to echo back the entire file?

sysmax 10 hours ago||
They can, but this reduces the quality. The LLM has a harder time picking the first edit, and then all subsequent work is influenced by that one edit. Like first creating an unnecessary auxiliary type, and then being stuck modifying the rest of the code to work with it.

So, in practice, many tools still work on the file level.

memcoder 3 hours ago||
depends if you're running Opus for everything vs tiering. my pipeline: Haiku 4.5 for ~70% of implementation, Sonnet 4 for one review step, Opus 4.5 only for planning and final synthesis

claude code on opus continuously = whole bill. different measurement.

haiku 4.5 is good enough for fanout. opus earns it on synthesis where you need long context + complex problem solving under constraints

beej71 10 hours ago||
News like this always makes me wonder about running my own model, something I've never done. A couple thousand bucks can get you some decent hardware, it looks like, but is it good for coding? What is your all's experience?

And if it's not good enough for coding, what kind of money, if any, would make it good enough?

arcanemachiner 10 hours ago||
I want to give give you realistic expectations: Unless you spend well over $10K on hardware, you will be disappointed, and will spend a lot of time getting there. For sophisticated coding tasks, at least. (For simple agentic work, you can get workable results with a 3090 or two, or even a couple 3060 12GBs for half the price. But they're pretty dumb, and it's a tease. Hobby territory, lots of dicking around.)

Do yourself a favor: Set up OpenCode and OpenRouter, and try all the models you want to try there.

Other than the top performers (e.g. GLM 5.1, Kimi K2.5, where required hardware is basically unaffordable for a single person), the open models are more trouble than they're worth IMO, at least for now (in terms of actually Getting Shit Done).

_345 9 hours ago||
We need more voices like this to cut through the bullshit. It's fine that people want to tinker with local models, but there has been this narrative for too long that you can just buy more ram and run some small to medium sized model and be productive that way. You just can't, a 35b will never perform at the level of the same gen 500b+ model. It just won't and you are basically working with GPT-4 (the very first one to launch) tier performance while everyone else is on GPT-5.4. If that's fine for you because you can stay local, cool, but that's the part that no one ever wants to say out loud and it made me think I was just "doing it wrong" for so long on lm studio and ollama.
zozbot234 8 hours ago|||
> We need more voices like this to cut through the bullshit.

Open models are not bullshit, they work fine for many cases and newer techniques like SSD offload make even 500B+ models accessible for simple uses (NOT real-time agentic coding!) on very limited hardware. Of course if you want the full-featured experience it's going to cost a lot.

solenoid0937 7 hours ago||
I fell for this stuff, went into the open+local model rabbit hole, and am finally out of it. What a waste of time and money!

People that love open models dramatically overstate how good the benchmaxxed open models are. They are nowhere near Opus.

arcanemachiner 1 hour ago||
There is absolutely a use case for open models... but anyone expecting to get anywhere near the GPT 5.x or Claude 4.x experience for more demanding tasks (read: anything beyond moderate-difficulty coding) will be sorely disappointed.

I love my little hobby aquarium though... It's pretty impressive when Qwen Coder Next and Qwen 3.5 122B can accomplish (in terms of general agentic use and basic coding tasks), considering that the models are freely-available. (Also heard good things about Qwen 3.5 27B, but haven't used it much... yes I am a Qwen fanboi.)

slopinthebag 5 hours ago|||
> We need more voices like this to cut through the bullshit.

Just because you can't figure out how to use the open models effectively doesn't mean they're bullshit. It just takes more skill and experience to use them :)

efficax 6 hours ago|||
gemma4 and qwen3.6 are pretty capable but will be slower and wrong more often than the larger models. But you can connect gemma4 to opencode via ollama and it.. works! it really can write and analyze code. It's just slow. You need serious hardware to run these fast, and even then, they're too small to beat the "frontier" models right now. But it's early days
mfro 10 hours ago|||
Not sure why all the other commentors are failing to mention you can spend considerably less money on an apple silicon machine to run decent local models.

Fun fact: AWS offers apple silicon EC2 instances you can spin up to test.

__mharrison__ 9 hours ago|||
My anecdotal experience with a recent project (Python library implemented and released to pypi).

I took the plan that I used from Codex and handed it to opencode with Qwen 3.5 running locally.

It created a library very similar to Codex but took 2x longer.

I haven't tried Qwen 3.6 but I hear it's another improvement. I'm confident with my AI skills that if/when cheap/subsidized models go away, I'll be fine running locally.

bakugo 10 hours ago|||
You should be aware that any model you can run on less than $10k worth of hardware isn't going to be anywhere close to the best cloud models on any remotely complex task.

Many providers out there host open weights models for cheap, try them out and see what you think before actually investing in hardware to run your own.

hleszek 10 hours ago|||
The latest Qwen3.6 model is very impressive for its size. Get an RTX 3090 and go to https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/ to see the latest news on how to run models locally. Totally fine for coding.
aray07 10 hours ago|||
i think the new qwen models are supposed to be good based on some the articles that i read
DeathArrow 9 hours ago||
Unless you use H100 or 4x 5090 you won't get a decent output.

The best bang for the buck now is subcribing to token plans from Z.ai (GLM 5.1), MiniMax (MiniMax M2.7) or ALibaba Cloud (Qwen 3.6 Plus)

Running quantized models won't give you results comparable to Opus or GPT.

khalic 9 hours ago||
Just hit my quota with 20x for the first time today…
TomGarden 6 hours ago||
Asked Opus 4.7 to extend an existing system today. After thorough exploration and a long back and forth on details it came up with a plan. Then proceeded to build a fully parallel, incompatible system from scratch with the changes I wanted but everything else incompatible and full of placeholders
ndom91 10 hours ago|
`/model claude-opus-4-6`
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