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Posted by stephen-hill 3 days ago

1-Bit Hokusai's "The Great Wave" (2023)(www.hypertalking.com)
542 points | 88 commentspage 3
itsthecourier 17 hours ago|
somebody explained me that the correct way to appreciate this painting is to invert it on horizontal axis.

the reason is, japanese is read from right to left.

once you invert it you can appreciate it better

srean 16 hours ago||
You mean like this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_Wave_off_Kanagawa_-...

His "Big Wave" has that right left position

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Th...

Love the birds in this one, especially the way it mirrors the wave crest fingers. Hokusai seems to have lunch ved these birds. They figure in his caged Bird pieces.

lioeters 15 hours ago||
That "Big Wave" variation with birds flying over the waves is strikingly beautiful. So dynamic and raw compared to the famous one. And how poetic the shapes of birds rhyme with the shape of waves. I'm gonna have to set aside some time to appreciate Hokusai's works again. Lovely.
srean 14 hours ago|||
The wave is almost like a live character in this one. Like an angry god caught in a moment of fury.
sph 15 hours ago|||
The wave/birds juxtaposition is very Escher-like
srean 14 hours ago||
Indeed.

Check this out

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1899550/1/11/

I don't know whether Escher was familiar with Hokusai's work but they shared a common interest in tilings and tesselations. Damned if I can find those Hokusai sketches on the web now.

chickensong 10 hours ago|||
This is Shingata komon-cho 新形小紋帳 (Book of New Patterns) from 1824, held by the British Museum: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/A_1973-0723-...
lioeters 12 hours ago|||
Wow that is kind of mind-blowing. Looking through other pages, Hokusai is showing each "rule" (法) and its application (tessalation) that produces the pattern. It makes me wonder about what kind of cultural exchange was happening between Japan and Europe at the time.
srean 12 hours ago||
Escher would be generations younger. However, I am curious about whether Hokusai encountered any Islamic art. Tesselations and symmetry play a big role in that one. I submitted ed this link as a separate HN post.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47902993

andsoitis 16 hours ago|||
Yes. Several references argue for that:

- Art Institute of Chicago (https://www.artic.edu/articles/1139/10-things-to-know-about-...)

- Daily Art Magazine (https://www.dailyartmagazine.com/great-wave-hokusai/#:~:text...)

- Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Wave_off_Kanagawa#Re...)

pavel_lishin 17 hours ago|||
Doesn't this assume that people (in the west, at least) "perceive" paintings from left to right? That doesn't strike me as particularly true.
rafabulsing 11 hours ago|||
I thought I'd be unimpressed by the mirrored version, but I can say that for myself, it really did have a different feel to it.

I've always pictured the boats moving right, sliding down, as if surfing the wave.

The mirrored version makes it clear that, no, they're going against the wave, which makes it that much more of a scary situation!

Now, having noticed that, I see how the position of the rowers in the boat would be enough to deduce that. But still, it goes to show that (at least for me, personally, in this specific case) the mirroring really did bring a more intuitive feel for what the artist was trying to represent.

lioeters 15 hours ago||||
This is taught in graphic design, how people typically scan information from left to right and top to bottom, in cultures where the written language flows in that direction. However, a counter argument could be made that people perceive paintings differently from the way they read written text. There have been studies about how the Japanese perceive images and sounds with the same area of the brain that processes language, in contrast to other cultures where they're processed separately. [citaion needed]
ggsp 16 hours ago||||
Look up “spatial agency bias” and “glance curve”
recj 16 hours ago|||
Doesn't strike me as particularly true either.
wonnage 13 hours ago|||
This is like saying westerners need to read mirrored manga to truly appreciate the artist’s intent. You can just start reading from the right…
rafabulsing 11 hours ago||
I do think that there's some loss in translated manga, actually!

When the mangaka is creating the layout, they're conceptualizing the flow not only of the panels, but also of the text inside panels, to be RTL.

Translating the text into a LTR language without mirroring the image, makes it so that your eyes have to zig zag around a bit more, going RTL panel wise, but LTR text box wise.

Compared to the problems that mirroring the art brings, I still think that's best compromise of the options, but doesn't mean it's not an actual impact on the experience, even if a subtle one.

I have wondered before, though, about how had might it be to learn to read mirrored, RLT english. Might be a bit of a challenge at first, but would enable you to read translated manga RTL with no compromises (other than the inherent lossiness of language translation in general).

wonnage 10 hours ago||
I think there’s already enough lost in translation that the text direction is the least of your worries haha
rafabulsing 10 hours ago||
For sure it's a very minor impact, all things considered, but an impact nonetheless.
hnfong 16 hours ago|||
... specifically, Japanese is traditionally written top to bottom, then right to left. (In contrast, English is written left to right, then top to bottom.)

So, armed with that knowledge, are you going to rotate it as well?

filoleg 16 hours ago|||
If you are talking about page order or panel order (in something like manga), those go right to left. More specifically, manga panels follow the usual western comic book panel order, except with left and right flipped.

However, when it comes to the actual text (regardless of the medium), it is always written either top to bottom or left to right. There is no right to left text writing in japanese. This isn't arabic, where text is indeed written right to left.

mitthrowaway2 16 hours ago||
When written top to bottom, the columns are read from right to left. This is the most common format for printed text, especially in Hokusai's time.

Also, when text was horizontal, it was frequently written right to left until the mid-1940s.[1]

[1] https://www.mutantfrog.com/2009/08/08/the-history-of-japanes...

itsthecourier 11 hours ago|||
it must be done, bro, for you, anything
recj 16 hours ago||
Japanese characters are actually written left to right, but sometimes the page order is right to left. Writing that you might find on a website, e-mails, and scientific writing is typically actually written left to right. While these kinds of texts may have pages that are ordered from right to left, the text on the pages is typically written from left to right. It is typically only when text is written vertically (yokogaki) that it is written in columns going from right to left, and in that case, the characters are read top to bottom.

Sources: [1] https://www.lingocommand.com/japanese/writing-systems-explai... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_and_vertical_writin... [3] I studied Japanese in college lol

Isamu 16 hours ago|||
When written horizontally it is now left to right but earlier you would see horizontal right to left. But vertical was preferred especially in the past.

You can see horizontal train stop signs written right to left in “In This Corner of the World” anime. Today all signage seems to be left to right.

[edit] The history section in Wikipedia explains that this was a postwar script reform. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_writing_system

kevin_thibedeau 13 hours ago||
Horizontal right to left is an edge case of vertical writing with one character tall columns.
kdheiwns 16 hours ago||||
In the time this art was made, top to bottom, right to left was the standard. It's pretty apparent when looking at any document from the Edo era. It's all top to bottom, right to left. Remnants of it are also clear in temples where the signs above doorways are written right to left, not even top to bottom. Plus every Japanese novel and manga today is still written top to bottom right to left.
hnfong 16 hours ago|||
You are right, but it can be argued that during the time the painting was made, vertical writing was the predominant form, and I don't know whether horizontal writing was a thing at the time in Japan...

That said, as I implied in my other reply, the whole idea is a bit silly...

akihitot 16 hours ago||
Japanese is currently read and written from left to right. However, until about 80 years ago (before World War II), it was read and written from right to left—though this applied only to horizontal writing. Vertical writing is read from right to left, and this convention continues today; for example, Japanese comics (manga) are still read from right to left.
keepamovin 15 hours ago||
[dead]
onlyjanand 10 hours ago||
[dead]
redsocksfan45 16 hours ago||
Very nice work. I've always loved the aesthetic of hand crafted monochrome pixel art.
amelius 16 hours ago||
[flagged]
joe_mamba 16 hours ago|
FYI, Hokusai also drew Hentai.
tecleandor 16 hours ago||
Sorry for the "actually", but Hentai didn't exist yet as a genre. It was "shunga", that is, erotic "ukiyo-e", a popular style at that time.

Popular shunga works by Hokusai are "Two lovers" or the wrongly translated "The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife" (the original Japanese title is "female diver and octopus")

joe_mamba 14 hours ago||
Please NO need to apologize, I don't mind being corrected by men of culture when I'm wrong.
sph 15 hours ago||
So? Go play the morality police elsewhere.
joe_mamba 14 hours ago||
Excuse me but can you read? Where did you see me bringing up anything critical of morality in my statement about the author's work? Go play reddit moderator somewhere else please.
sph 14 hours ago||
What does your "for your information" bring to the table, other than sidetracking the discussion? What are we supposed to do with it?
joe_mamba 13 hours ago||
>What does your "for your information" bring to the table, other than sidetracking the discussion?

Adding extra curiosity context, that other readers might not be aware of, is not "sidetracking the discussion", but simply contributing to the conversation while respecting the HN rules of "be curious".

Now tell me what does your unwarranted criticism and personal insults bring to this discussion other than being an obnoxious PITA and breaking HN rules?

Did your parents teach you, that you can criticize someone without insults?

>What are we supposed to do with it?

Same thing you do with any other curiosity info you read on HN.