Posted by pella 19 hours ago
It doesn't really make sense economically for me to write software for work anymore. I'm a teacher, architect, and infrastructure maintainer now. I hand over most development to my experienced team of Claude sessions. I review everything, but so does Claude (because Claude writes thorough tests also.) It has no problem handling a large project these days.
I don't mean for this post to be an ad for Claude. (Who knows what Anthropic will do to Claude tomorrow?) I intend for this post to be a question: what am I doing that makes Claude profoundly effective?
Also, I'm never running out of tokens anymore. I really only use the Opus model and I find it very efficient with tokens. Just last week I landed over 150 non-trivial commits, all with Claude's help, and used only 1/3 of the tokens allotted for the week. The most commits I could do before Claude was 25-30 per week.
(Gosh, it's hard to write that without coming across as an ad for Anthropic. Sorry.)
I looked at some stats yesterday and was surprised to learn Cursor AI now writes 97% of my code at work. Mostly through cloud agents (watching it work is too distracting for me)
My approach is very simple: Just Talk To It
People way overthink this stuff. It works pretty good. Sharing .md files and hyperfocusing on various orchestrations and prompt hacks of the week feels as interesting as going deep on vim shortcuts and IDE skins.
Just ask for what you want, be clear, give good feedback. That’s it
Of course exceptions apply. Some basic information that will reliably be discovered is still worth adding to your AGENTS.md to cut down on token use. But after a couple obvious things you quickly get into the realm of premature optimization (unless you actually measure the effects)
If you find any, consider making them into skills or /commands or maybe even add them to AGENTS.md.
Is it by characters human typed vs AI generated, or by commit or something?
Cursor dashboard. I know they're incentivized to over-estimate but feels directionally accurate when I look at recent PRs.
Don’t really think about it. I think when I talk to it through Slack, cursor users codex, in my ide looks like it’s whatever highest claude. In Github comments, who even knows
Personally, I tend to get crap quality code out of Claude. Very branchy. Very un-DRY. Consistently fails to understand the conventions of my codebase (e.g. keeps hallucinating that my arena allocator zero initializes memory - it does not). And sometimes after a context compaction it goes haywire and starts creating new regressions everywhere. And while you can prompt to fix these things, it can take an entire afternoon of whack-a-mole prompting to fix the fallout of one bad initial run. I've also tried dumping lessons into a project specific skill file, which sometimes helps, but also sometimes hurts - the skill file can turn into a footgun if it gets out of sync with an evolving codebase.
In terms of limits, I usually find myself hitting the rate limit after two or three requests. On bad days, only one. This has made Claude borderline unusable over the past couple weeks, so I've started hand coding again and using Claude as a code search and debugging tool rather than a code generator.
I've found this can be vastly reduced with AGENTS.md instructions, at least with codex/gpt-5.4.
In TFA they found that prompting mitigates over-editing up to about 10 percentage points.
I've thought about this and I think the reason is as follows: we hold code written by ourselves to a much higher standard than code written by somebody else. If you think of AI code as your own code, then it probably won't seem very acceptable because it lacks the beauty (partly subjective as all beauty tends to be) that we put into our own code. If you think of it as a coworker's code, then it's usually alright i.e. you wouldn't be wildly impressed with that coworker but it would also not be bad enough to raise a stink.
It follows from this that it also depends on how you regard the codebase that you're working on. Do you think of it as a personal masterpiece or is it some mishmash camel by committee as the codebases at work tend to be?
It's bitten me several times at work, and I rather not waste any more of my limited time doing the re-prompt -> modify code manually cycle. I'm capable of doing this myself.
It's great for the simple tasks tho, most feature work are simple tasks IMO. They were only "costly" in the sense that it took a while to previously read the code, find appropriate changes, create tests for appropriate changes, etc. LLMs reduce that cycle of work, but that type of work in general isn't the majority of my time at my job.
I've worked at feature factories before, it's hell. I can't imagine how much more hell it has become since the introduction of these tools.
Feature factories treat devs as literal assembly line machines, output is the only thing that matters not quality. Having it mass induced because of these tools is just so shitty to workers.
I fully expect a backlash in the upcoming years.
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My only Q to the OP of this thread is what kind of teacher they are, because if you teach people anything about software while admitting that you no longer write code because it's not profitable (big LOL at caring about money over people) is just beyond pathetic.
This means it can do anything in the VM, install dependencies, etc... So far, it managed to bork the VM once (unbootable), I could have spent a bit of time figuring out what happened but I had a script to rebuild the VM so didn't bother. To be entirely fair to claude, the VM runs arch linux which is definitely easier to break than other distros.
The view of Claude on HN is extremely positive and nearly every thread will have highly positive comment "that is not an ad".
I think people are seeing others just irked by the constant stream what feels like ads and reading it as Claude being somehow disliked.
1. Is a product/software you develop novel? As in does it do something useful and unique? Or it's a product that already exists in many varietes and yours is just "one of ..."?
2. What if one day, LLMs will get regulated/become terrible/raise prices above your budget. Do you have plans for that?
2. Regulation? I'm sceptical that the cat can be put back into the bag. It's already out there. More realistic problem is the business model part - openweight/local provides a counterpoint to that.
1. Even really novel projects have large chunks of glue code and boring infrastructure that the novel bits depend on. claude means I spend 10% of my time on the borng stuff and 90% of time on stuff I previously onky had 10% of my day to work on. In my experience the software picked up our idioms fast and for context, we have a skill file explaining code standards.
2. codex and gemini are comparable when paired with a good harness (pi.dev). if things ever get really bad, I'll drop 8k on a dedicated agent coding server and run it locally. I tried it recently with my current system and it was sub par but I was running a drasticly simpler model.
I don't measure my productivity, but I see it in the sort of tasks I tackle after years of waiting. It's especially good at tedious tasks like turning 100 markdown files into 5 json files and updating the code that reads them, for example.
Are you working more on operational stuff or on "long-running product" stuff?
My personal headcanon: this tooling works well when built on simple patterns, and can handle complex work. This tooling has also been not great at coming up with new patterns, and if left unsupervised will totally make up new patterns that are going to go south very quickly. With that lens, I find myself just rewriting what Claude gives me in a good number of cases.
I sometimes race the robot and beat the robot at doing a change. I am "cheating" I guess cuz I know what I want already in many cases and it has to find things first but... I think the futzing fraction[0] is underestimated for some people.
And like in the "perils of laziness lost"[1] essay... I think that sometimes the machine trying too hard just offends my sensibilities. Why are you doing 3 things instead of just doing the one thing!
One might say "but it fixes it after it's corrected"... but I already go through this annoying "no don't do A,B, C just do A, yes just that it's fine" flow when working with coworkers, and it's annoying there too!
"Claude writes thorough tests" is also its own micro-mess here, because while guided test creation works very well for me, giving it any leeway in creativity leads to so many "test that foo + bar == bar + foo" tests. Applying skepticism to utility of tests is important, because it's part of the feedback loop. And I'm finding lots of the test to be mainly useful as a way to get all the imports I need in.
If we have all these machines doing this work for us, in theory average code quality should be able to go up. After all we're more capable! I think a lot of people have been using it in a "well most of the time it hits near the average" way, but depending on how you work there you might drag down your average.
[0]: https://blog.glyph.im/2025/08/futzing-fraction.html [1]: https://bcantrill.dtrace.org/2026/04/12/the-peril-of-lazines...
I've been doing a greenfield project with Claude recently. The initial prototype worked but was very ugly (repeated duplicate boilerplate code, a few methods doing the same exact thing, poor isolation between classes)... I was very much tempted to rewrite it on my own. This time, I decided to try and get it to refactor so get the target architecture and fix those code quality issues, it's possible but it's very much like pulling teeths... I use plan mode, we have multiple round of reviews on a plan (that started based on me explaining what I expect), then it implements 95% of it but doesn't realize that some parts of it were not implemented... It reminds me of my experience mentoring a junior employee except that claude code is both more eager (jumping into implementation before understanding the problem), much faster at doing things and dumber.
That said, I've seen codebases created by humans that were as bad or worse than what claude produced when doing prototype.
The first (and maybe even second) usage of a gnarly, badly thought out pattern might work fine. But you're only a couple steps away from if statement soup. And in the world where your agent's life is built around "getting the tests to pass", you can quickly find it doing _very_ gnarly things to "fix" issues.
I think you're likely in the silent majority. LLMs do some stupid things, but when they work it's amazing and it far outweighs the negatives IMHO, and they're getting better by leaps and bounds.
I respect some of the complaints against them (plagiarism, censorship, gatekeeping, truth/bias, data center arms race, crawler behavior, etc.), but I think LLMs are a leap forward for mankind (hopefully). A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer for everyone. An entirely new computing interface.
Much like giving a codebase to a newbie developer, whatever patterns exist will proliferate and the lack of good patterns means that patterns will just be made up in an ad-hoc and messy way.
I'm fascinated by this question.
I think the first two sections of this article point towards an answer: https://aphyr.com/posts/412-the-future-of-everything-is-lies...
I've personally had radically different experiences working on different projects, different features within the same project, etc.
Edit: The lurkers and the commenters must be a pretty different set of people I suppose.
This is the problem.
I think there is a huge gap between people on salaries getting effectively more responsibility by being given spend that they otherwise would not have had and people hustling on projects on their own.
Yes it is 100% what I use but I am never happy with usage. It burns up by sub fast and there is little feelings of control. Experiments like using lower tier models are hard to understand in reality. Graphify might work or it might not. I have no idea.
I guess it comes down to how ossified you want your existing code to be.
If it's a big production application that's been running for decades then you probably want the minimum possible change.
If you're just experimenting with stuff and the project didn't exist at all 3 days ago then you want the agent to make it better rather than leave it alone.
Probably they just need to learn to calibrate themselves better to the project context.
Even within the same project, for a given PR, there are some parts of the codebase I want to modify freely and some that I want fixed to reduce the diff and testing scope.
I try to explain up-front to the agent how aggressively they can modify the existing code and which parts, but I've had mixed success; usually they bias towards a minimal diff even if that means duplication or abusing some abstractions. If anyone has had better success, I'd love to hear your approach.
I'll literally run an agent & tell it to clean up a markdown file that has too much design in it, delete the technical material, and/or delete key implementations/interfaces in the source, then tell a new session to do the work, come up with the design. (Then undelete and reconcile with less naive sessions.)
Path dependence is so strong. Right now I do this flow manually but I would very much like to codify this, make a skill for this pattern that serves so well.
I suspect AI's learned to do this in order to game the system. Bailing out with an exception is an obvious failure and will be penalized, but hiding a potential issue can sometimes be regarded as a success.
I wonder how this extrapolates to general Q&A. Do models find ways to sound convincing enough to make the user feels satisfied and the go away? I've noticed models often use "it's not X, it's Y", which is a binary choice designed to keep the user away from thinking about other possibilities. Also they often come up with a plan of action at the end of their answer, a sales technique known as the "assumptive close", which tries to get the user to think about the result after agreeing with the AI, rather than the answer itself.
They are trained on human feedback, so there is no other way this goes. Every bit of every response is pointed toward subversion of the assumed evaluator.
I can't help but read complaints about the capabilities of AI – and I'm certainly not accusing you of complaining about AI, just a general thought – and think "Yet" to myself every time.
I've spent far more time pitting one AI context against another (reviewing each other's work) than I have using AI to build stuff these days.
The benefit is that since it mostly happens asynchronously, I'm free to do other stuff.
1. I have no real understanding of what is actually happening under the hood. The ease of just accepting a prompt to run some script the agent has assembled is too enticing. But, I've already wiped a DB or two just because the agent thought it was the right thing to do. I've also caught it sending my AWS credentials to deployment targets when it should never do that.
2. I've learned nothing. So the cognitive load of doing it myself, even assembling a simple docker command, is just too high. Thus, I repeatedly fallback to the "crutch" of using AI.
Of course this requires being fortunate enough that you have one of those AI positive employers where you can spend lots of money on clankers.
I don't review every move it makes, I rather have a workflow where I first ask it questions about the code, and it looks around and explores various design choices. then i nudge it towards the design choice I think is best, etc. That asking around about the code also loads up the context in the appropriate manner so that the AI knows how to do the change well.
It's a me in the loop workflow but that prevents a lot of bugs, makes me aware of the design choices, and thanks to fast mode, it is more pleasant and much faster than me manually doing it.
One the one hand, reviewing and micromaning everything it does is tedious and unrewarding. Unlike reviewing a colleague's code, you're never going to teach it anything; maybe you'll get some skills out of it if you finds something that comes up often enough it's worth writing a skill for. And this only gets you, at best, a slight speedup over writing it yourself, as you have to stay engaged and think about everything that's going on.
Or you can just let it grind away agentically and only test the final output. This allows you to get those huge gains at first, but it can easily just start accumulating more and more cruft and bad design decisions and hacks on top of hacks. And you increasingly don't know what it's doing or why, you're losing the skill of even being able to because you're not exercising it.
You're just building yourself a huge pile of technical debt. You might delete your prod database without realizing it. You might end up with an auth system that doesn't actually check the auth and so someone can just set a username of an admin in a cookie to log in. Or whatever; you have no idea, and even if the model gets it right 95% of the time, do you want to be periodically rolling a d20 and if you get a 1 you lose everything?
Maybe I’m just weird (actually that’s a given) but I don’t mind babysitting the clanker while it works.
The agent only has access to exactly what it needs, be it an implementation agent, analysis agent, or review agent.
Makes it very easy to stay in command without having to sit and approve tons of random things the agent wants to do.
I do not allow bash or any kind of shell. I don't want to have to figure out what some random python script it's made up is supposed to do all the time.
Both OpenCode and VsCode support this. I think in ClaudeCode you can do it with skills now.
The other benefit is the MCP tool can mediate e.g. noisy build tool output, and reduce token usage by only showing errors or test failures, nothing else, or simply an ok response with the build run or test count.
So far, I have not needed to give them access to more than build tools, git, and a project/knowledge system (e.g. Obsidian) for the work I have them doing. Well and file read/write and web search.
I use Cursor but it's getting expensive lately, so I'm trying to reduce context size and move to OpenCode or something like that which I can use with some cheaper provider and Kimi 2.5 or whatever.
BTW, one tip is to look at the size of the codebase. When you see 100KLOC for a first draft of a C compiler, you know something has gone horribly wrong. I would suggest that you at least compare the number of lines the agent produced to what you think the project should take. If it's more than double, the code is in serious, serious trouble. If it's in the <1.5x range, there's a chance it could be saved.
Asking the agent questions is good - as an aid to a review, not as a substitute. The agents lie with a high enough frequency to be a serious problem.
The models don't yet write code anywhere near human quality, so they require much closer supervision than a human programmer.
You could have it build something that takes fewer lines of code, but you aren’t gonna to find much with that level of specification and guardrails.
It has about doubled my development pace. An absolutely incredible gain in a vacuum, though tiny compared to what people seem to manage without these self-constraints. But in exchange, my understanding of the code is as comprehensive as if I had paired on it, or merged a direct report's branch into a project I was responsible for. A reasonable enough tradeoff, for me.
anonu has explicitly said that they've wiped a database twice as a result of agents doing stuff. What sort of diff would help against an agent running commands, without your approval?
$ main-app git:(main) kubectl get pods | grep agent | head -n 1 | sed -E 's/[a-z]+-agent(.*)/app-agent\1/'
app-agent-656c6ff85d-p86t8 1/1 Running 0 13d
The diff: +8000 -4000
I also don't find the permissions it prompts for very meaningful. Permission to use a file search tool? Permission to make a web request? It's a clumsy way to slow it down enough for me to catch up.
Day 1: Carefully handles the creds, gives me a lecture (without asking) about why .env should be in .gitignore and why I should edit .env and not hand over the creds to it.
Day 2: I ask for a repeat, has lost track of that skill or setting, frantically searches my entire disk, reads .env including many other files, understands that it is holding a token, manually creates curl commands to test the token and then comes back with some result.
It is like it is a security expert on Day 1 and absolute mediocre intern on Day 2
( This was low-stakes test creds anyway which I was testing with thankfully. )
I never pass creds via env or anything else it can access now.
My approach now is to get it to write me linqpad scripts, which has a utility function to get creds out of a user-encrypted share, or prompts if it's not in the store.
This works well, but requires me to run the scripts and guide it.
Ultimately, fully autotonous isn't compatible with secrets. Otherwise, if it really wanted to inspect it, then it could just redirect the request to an echo service.
The only real way is to deal with it the same way we deal with insider threat.
A proxy layer / secondary auth, which injects the real credentials. Then give claude it's own user within that auth system, so it owns those creds. Now responsibilty can be delegated to it without exposing the original credentials.
That's a lot of work when you're just exploring an API or DB or similar.
1. Everything is specified, written and tested by me, then cleaned up by AI. This is for the core of the application.
2. AI writes the functions, then sets up stub tests for me to write. Here I’ll often rewrite the functions as they often don’t do what I want, or do too much. I just find it gets rid of a lot of boilerplate to do things this way.
3. AI does everything. This is for experiments or parts of an application that I am perfectly willing to delete. About 70% of the time I do end up deleting these parts. I don’t allow it to touch 1 or 2.
Of course this requires that the architecture is setup in a way where this is possible. But I find it pretty nice.
[1] except perhaps read-only credentials to help diagnose problems, but even then I would only issue it an extremely short-lived token in case it leaks it somehow
Only helps if we listen to it :) which is fun b/c it means staying sharp which is inherently rewarding
Don’t give your agent access to content it should not edit, don’t give keys it shouldn’t use.
> python <<'EOF'
> ${code the agent wrote on the spot}
> EOF
I mean, yeah, in theory it's just as dangerous as running arbitrary shell commands, which the agent is already doing anyway, but still...
By default these shell commands don't have network access or write access outside the project directory which is good, but nowhere near customizable enough. Once you approve a command because it needs network access, its other restrictions are lifted too. It's all or nothing.
I'm not trying to be offense, so with all due respect... this sounds like a "you" problem. (And I've been there, too)
You can ask the LLMs: how do I run this, how do I know this is working, etc etc.
Sure... if you really know nothing or you put close to zero effort into critically thinking about what they give you, you can be fooled by their answers and mistake complete irrelevance or bullshit for evidence that something works is suitably tested to prove that it works, etc.
You can ask 2 or 3 other LLMs: check their work, is this conclusive, can you find any bugs, etc etc.
But you don't sound like you know nothing. You sound like you're rushing to get things done, cutting corners, and you're getting rushed results.
What do you expect?
Their work is cheap. They can pump out $50k+ worth of features in a $200/mo subscription with minimal baby-sitting. Be EAGER to reject their work. Send it back to them over and over again to do it right, for architectural reviews, to check for correctness, performance, etc.
They are not expensive people with feelings you need to consider in review, that might quit and be hard to replace. Don't let them cut corners. For whatever reason, they are EAGER to cut corners no matter how much you tell them not to.
I'm only 5 years into this career, and I'm going to work manually and absorb as much knowledge as possible while I'm still able to do it. Yes, that means manually doing shit-kicker work. If AI does get so good that I need to use it, as you say, then I'll be running it locally on a version I can master and build tooling for.
https://vivekhaldar.com/articles/when-compilers-were-the--ai...
We are completely comfortable now letting the compilers do their thing, and never seem to worry that we "don't know what is actually happening under the hood".
I am not saying these situations are exactly analogous, but I am saying that I don't think we can know yet if this will be one of those things that we stop worrying about or it will be a serious concern for a while.
> Many assembly programmers were accustomed to having intimate control over memory and CPU instructions. Surrendering this control to a compiler felt risky. There was a sentiment of, if I don’t code it down to the metal, how can I trust what’s happening? In some cases, this was about efficiency. In other cases, it was about debuggability and understanding programming behavior. However, as compilers matured, they began providing diagnostic output and listings that actually improved understanding.
I would 100% use LLMs more and more aggressively if they were more transparent. All my reservations come from times when I prompt “change this one thing” and it rewrites my db schema for some reason, or adds a comment that is actively wrong in several ways. I also think I have a decent working understanding of the assembly my code compiles to, and do occasionally use https://godbolt.org/. Of course, I didn’t start out that way, but I also don’t really have any objections to teenagers vibe-coding games, I just think at some point you have to look under the hood if you’re serious.
Isn't that what git is for, though? Just have your LLM work in a branch, and then you will have a clear record of all the changes it made when you review the pull request.
LLMs are nothing like that
It is just the scope that makes it appear non-deterministic to a human looking at it, and it is large enough to be impossible for a human to follow the entire deterministic chain, but that doesn't mean it isn't in the end a function that translates input data into output data in a deterministic way.
There is a world of difference between translation and generation. It's even in the name: generative AI. I didn't say anything about magic.
edit: there might be a future where we develop robopsychology enough to understand LLM more than black boxes, we we are not there yet.
[1] Aside from injected randomness and parallel scheduling artifacts.
Care to point to any that are set up to be deterministic?
Did you ever stop to think about why no one can get any use out of a model with temp set to zero?
I get why that is in practice different then the manner in which compilers are deterministic, but my point is the difference isnt because of determinism.
Create a program that reads from /dev/random (not urandom). It's not determistic.
In other words, it isn't the random number part of LLMs that make them seem like a black box and unpredictable, but rather the complexity of the underlying model. Even if you ran it in a deterministic way, I don't think people would suddenly feel more confident about the outputted code.
A non deterministic compiler is probably defective and in any case much less useful
Although, while the compiler devs might know what was going on in the compiler, they wouldn't know what the compiler was doing with that particular bit of code that the FORTRAN developer was writing. They couldn't possibly foresee every possible code path that a developer might traverse with the code they wrote. In some ways, you could say LLMs are like that, too; the LLM developers know how the LLM code works, but they don't know the end result with all the training data and what it will do based on that.
In addition, to the end developer writing FORTRAN it was a black box either way. Sure, someone else knows how the compiler works, but not the developer.
There's plenty of resources online to rectify that, though.
Also compilers usually compose well: you can test snippets of code in isolation and the generated code it will have at least some relation to whatever asm would be generated when the snippet is embedded in a larger code base (even under inter-procedural optimizations or LTO, you can predict and often control how it will affect the generated code).
Demonstrably incorrect. This is because the model selection, among other data, is not fixed for (I would say most) LLMs. They are constantly changing. I think you meant something more like an LLM with a fixed configuration. Maybe additional constraints, depending on the specific implementation.
The idea being that if you're working in an area, you should refactor and tidy it up and clean up "tech debt" while there.
In practice, it was seldom done, and here we have LLMs actually doing it, and we're realising the drawbacks.
At times even when a function is right there doing exactly what's needed.
Worse, when it modifies a function that exists, supposedly maintaining its behavior, but breaks for other use cases. Good try I guess.
Worst. Changing state across classes not realising the side effect. Deadlock, or plain bugs.
I spent some time dealing with this today. The real issue for me, though, was that the refactors the agent did were bad. I only wanted it to stop making those changes so I could give it more explicit changes on what to fix and how.
"Refactor-as-you-go" means to refactor right after you add features / fix bugs, not like what the agent does in this article.
Instead you to do it later, and then never do it.
If LLMs are doing sensible and necessary refactors as they go then great
I have basically zero confidence that is actually the case though
This is horrible practice, and very typical junior behavior that needs to be corrected against. Unless you wrote it, Chesterton's Fence applies; you need to think deeply for a long time about why that code exists as it does, and that's not part of your current task. Nothing worse than dealing with a 1000 line PR opened for a small UI fix because the code needed to be "cleaned up".
Tech debt needs to be dealt with when it makes sense. Many times it will be right there and then as you're approaching the code to do something else. Other times it should be tackled later with more thought. The latter case is frequently a symptom of the absence of the former.
In Extreme Programming, that's called the Boy Scouting Rule.
https://furqanramzan.github.io/clean-code-guidelines/princip...
The latter is something you learn to judge the right time to tackle. Sometimes a small improvement that's not required will mean you're not pressed to make the refactor to avoid hacks. The earliest you can tackle problems, the cheaper they are to solve.
I think they're in here, last edited 8 months ago: https://github.com/nreHieW/fyp/blob/5a4023e4d1f287ac73a616b5...
Over-editing is definitely not some long gone problem. This was on xhigh thinking, because I forgot to set it to lower.
Cross entropy loss steers towards garden path sentences. Using a paragraph to say something any person could say with a sentence, or even a few precise words. Long sentences are the low perplexity (low statistical “surprise”) path.
Codex also has a tendency to apply unwanted styles everywhere.
I see similar tendencies in backend and data work, but I somehow find it easier to control there.
I'm pretty much all in on AI coding, but I still don't know how to give these things large units of work, and I still feel like I have to read everything but throwaway code.
But yeah, I saw a suggestion about adding a long-lived agent that would keep track of salient points (so kinda memory) but also monitor current progress by main agent in relation to the "memory" and give the main agent commands when it detects that the current code clashes with previous instructions or commands. Would be interesting to see if it would help.
Purely anecdotal.