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Posted by calcifer 2 days ago

New 10 GbE USB adapters are cooler, smaller, cheaper(www.jeffgeerling.com)
252 points | 112 commentspage 2
simonjgreen 1 day ago|
From the source of the RealTek 8129/8139 PCI NIC driver in FreeBSD: (old, not directly relevant, just amusing) https://elixir.bootlin.com/freebsd/v10.2/source/sys/pci/if_r...

/* * RealTek 8129/8139 PCI NIC driver * * Supports several extremely cheap PCI 10/100 adapters based on * the RealTek chipset. Datasheets can be obtained from * www.realtek.com.tw. * * Written by Bill Paul <wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu> * Electrical Engineering Department * Columbia University, New York City / / * The RealTek 8139 PCI NIC redefines the meaning of 'low end.' This is * probably the worst PCI ethernet controller ever made, with the possible * exception of the FEAST chip made by SMC. The 8139 supports bus-master * DMA, but it has a terrible interface that nullifies any performance * gains that bus-master DMA usually offers. * * For transmission, the chip offers a series of four TX descriptor * registers. Each transmit frame must be in a contiguous buffer, aligned * on a longword (32-bit) boundary. This means we almost always have to * do mbuf copies in order to transmit a frame, except in the unlikely * case where a) the packet fits into a single mbuf, and b) the packet * is 32-bit aligned within the mbuf's data area. The presence of only * four descriptor registers means that we can never have more than four * packets queued for transmission at any one time. * * Reception is not much better. The driver has to allocate a single large * buffer area (up to 64K in size) into which the chip will DMA received * frames. Because we don't know where within this region received packets * will begin or end, we have no choice but to copy data from the buffer * area into mbufs in order to pass the packets up to the higher protocol * levels. * * It's impossible given this rotten design to really achieve decent * performance at 100Mbps, unless you happen to have a 400Mhz PII or * some equally overmuscled CPU to drive it. * * On the bright side, the 8139 does have a built-in PHY, although * rather than using an MDIO serial interface like most other NICs, the * PHY registers are directly accessible through the 8139's register * space. The 8139 supports autonegotiation, as well as a 64-bit multicast * filter. * * The 8129 chip is an older version of the 8139 that uses an external PHY * chip. The 8129 has a serial MDIO interface for accessing the MII where * the 8139 lets you directly access the on-board PHY registers. We need * to select which interface to use depending on the chip type. */

daneel_w 1 day ago||
Those comments are about the 25 years old RTL8139, among the world's first highly affordable and fully-integrated Fast Ethernet controllers that ended up on pretty much every motherboard. Contrary to all of the aged complaints about the RTL8139, I ran several such on OpenBSD (and Windows) for close to ten years with no problems at all.
kalleboo 1 day ago|||
> unless you happen to have a 400Mhz PII or some equally overmuscled CPU to drive it

Oh no!

eqvinox 1 day ago||
8159 != 8139

> /* * RealTek 8129/8139 PCI NIC driver * * Supports several extremely cheap PCI 10/100 adapters based on […]

Also, please, for the love of whatever entity, at least remove the *s on that paste. This is just atrocious and disrespectful of any reader.

userbinator 2 days ago||
The PCIe version: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46423967
sva_ 2 days ago||
It seems like a lot of laptop manufacturers skipped the USB 3.2 Gen2x2 in favor of USB4/TB4.
TMWNN 2 days ago|
Conversely, the last time I checked a couple of weeks ago, it was impossible to find any USB4 external SSDs on Amazon; only USB 3.2.
whilenot-dev 2 days ago|||
Wouldn't it be better to just buy an M.2 NVMe adapter, eg. ICY DOCK ICYNano MB861U31-1M2B[0]?

[0]: https://global.icydock.com/product_247.html

justinclift 2 days ago||
That doesn't seem to be USB 4?
whilenot-dev 1 day ago||
Is there an SSD that saturates USB3.2 Gen2 speeds and requires USB4?
bestham 1 day ago|||
Oh yes. Samsung 9100 Pro does 14800/13400 MiB/s over PCIe 5x4.
daneel_w 1 day ago|||
What you're seeing are the speeds of various multi-tier caches (RAM, intermediate SLC etc.) It cannot write to its main flash memory that fast. While it to the user looks like they just wrote 10 GiB in a single second, the SSD is internally still busy for another 10 seconds persisting that data. The actual real write speed of top-shelf consumer grade SSDs these days is somewhere in the vicinity of 1.5 GiB/s. Most models top out at half of that or less.
alfanick 1 day ago|||
I bought this one when upgrading my desktop, it indeed delivers what it promises. 14.5GB/s on my tiny random desktop, it's impressive. Everything feels so instantaneous, my Linux desktop finally feels like a Mac :)
sva_ 1 day ago||
That's certainly impossible as even USB4 is only 40Gb/s~5GB/s, and of that you could only expect to get 32Gb/s~4GB/s. Or realistically even less due to overhead.

It is probably the speed of it being read into RAM.

Try entering sync right after copying to see how long it really takes

alfanick 1 day ago||
Oh I meant without USB4 enclosure ofc, PCIe5 directly. It's truly the best consumer-level SSD available around.

It beats my previous desktop's RAM speed, what a time to live in.

nottorp 1 day ago||||
Maybe not, but the USB consortium hasn't got around to polluting the USB4 namespace yet so it's safer to buy stuff with the USB4 label.

Of course, just give them some time and they'll come up with USB4 "gen classic" at 11 Mbps.

muro 1 day ago|||
Many PCIe4 or 5 drives
justinclift 2 days ago||||
If Amazon is a strict requirement, then this won't help. But if you're ok with AliExpress then it's probably a win:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005008555989592.html

I have one of these, though I'm using with a USB 3.x port as that's what my desktop has. For me it's working fine, and for others with actual USB 4 ports it seems to be working properly for them.

sva_ 2 days ago|||
Really? I see plenty when I search for 'usb4 nvme enclosure'
user34283 2 days ago||
I have a RTL8157 5 Gbps adapter from CableMatters.

Interestingly it seems to get burning hot on the MacBook M1 Pro while it remains cool on the M5 Pro model.

Maybe the workload is different, but I would not rule out some sort of hardware or driver difference. I only use a 1G port on my router at the moment.

red369 1 day ago||
Huh! That's very interesting.

I am definitely not the person to shed any light on what is going on, but you've added to my feeling that these adapters are all incomprehensible, so I'll try and do the same for you.

I have a USB C ethernet adapter (a Belkin USB-C to Ethernet + Charge Adapter which I recommend if you need it). I ran out of USB C ports one day, and plugged it through a USB C to USB A adapter instead. I must have done an fast.com speed-test to make sure it wasn't going to slow things down drastically, and found that the latency was lower! Not a huge amount, and I think the max speed was quicker without the adapter. But still, lower latency through a $1.50 Essager USB C to USB A adapter, bought from Shein or Shopee or somewhere silly!

I tried tons of times, back and forward, with the adapter a few times, then without the adapter a few times. Even on multiple laptops. As much as I don't want to, I keep seeing lower latency through this cheap adapter.

Next step, I'll try USB C to USB A, then back through a USB A to USB C adapter. Who knows how fast my internet could be!

baybal2 1 day ago||
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woohin 1 day ago||
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shevy-java 2 days ago||
Will they be cheaper? I look at the RAM prices. Granted, RAM is in a different category than USB adapters, but I no longer trust anyone writing "will be cheaper" - the reality may be different to the projection made.
eqvinox 2 days ago||
Too bad this is 10Gbase-T, that energy-wasting hot-running garbage needs to die sooner rather than later. Good thing the ranges for 25Gbase-T are short enough to make it impractical for home use.

(Fibre is nowhere near as "sensitive" as some people believe.)

zrm 2 days ago||
The problem with fibre isn't the sensitivity. It's that most endpoints have a 1Gbps copper port on them and then Cat6A ports can be used with the common devices but also allow you to add or relocate 10Gbps devices without rewiring the building again.
HappMacDonald 2 days ago|||
However — unlike copper twisted pair — the bandwidth current fiber media can carry is nearly limited by nothing but the optics at each end.
zrm 2 days ago||
That doesn't solve the chicken and egg problem.

What probably would is something like having PCIe and USB to 1Gbps fiber adapters that cost $5.

simoncion 1 day ago||
You've been able to get Intel X520 NICs [0], with transceivers included for ~40USD on Newegg for a long time. This is a little more than double the price of Newegg's cheapest single-port 10/100/1000 copper card, but even the cheapest available such card is three times your "chicken and egg"-solving price point.

I suspect the combination of the absence of cheap-o all-in-one AP/router combo boxes with any SFP+ cages and fiber cabling's reputation of being extremely fragile have much more to do with its scarcity at the extremely low end of networking gear than anything else.

[0] This is a two-port SFP+ PCI Express card

zrm 1 day ago||
You can get copper ones for $5.99 (quality may vary):

https://www.amazon.com/1000Mbps-Network-Performance-Gigabit-...

https://www.amazon.com/SALAN-Ethernet-Portable-Internet-Conv...

But it's not competing with those, it's competing with the copper port which is already built into most devices.

Another thing that would work is something like this (also $5.99), but with one of the ports as fibre:

https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Splitter-1000Mbps-In...

The point being you need some cheap way to plug in existing copper devices if you run fibre to the endpoints.

This plus $5 for a transceiver is pretty close at $15:

https://www.amazon.com/Gigabit-Ethernet-Converter-Auto-Negot...

But +$15 and an extra wall outlet per endpoint is still an inconvenience, and if a two-port device with its own power supply can be made for $15 then where is the PCIe/USB to fibre adapter for <$10?

simoncion 1 day ago||
> (quality may vary):

Yep. Good NICs last for approximately forever, life's way too short to deal with maybe-flaky NICs, and the price difference between the Amazon Special and something that's going to be reliable is -what- two big boxes of Cheerios? Two dozen eggs? Not. Worth it.

> But it's not competing with those, it's competing with the copper port which is already built into most devices.

Correct! That's part of why I was so very surprised to see you suggesting that extremely cheap PCI Express and USB adapters would "solve the chicken and egg problem".

> The point being you need some cheap way to plug in existing copper devices if you run fibre to the endpoints.

That's called a multi-port switch. Netgear sells five-port gigabit ones for like 20 USD. Switches that have two SFP+ cages and eight copper gigabit ports [0] are six times the price of a cheap-o Netgear switch, but are something that's going to last at least a decade. It's also pretty uncommon to find SOHO switches that have SFP+ cages and don't have at least one fixed copper port.

> This plus $5 for a transceiver is pretty close at $15:

If you're connecting a single device, why the hell would you use that when you could slap a copper SFP or SFP+ module in the switch's cage and run a cable? If you're connecting multiple devices, then either install multiple copper modules and run multiple cables, run multiple copper cables from fixed copper ports on the switch, or put a switch where the existing copper devices are.

[0] <https://mikrotik.com/product/css610_8g_2s_in>

zrm 1 day ago||
> If you're connecting a single device, why the hell would you use that when you could slap a copper SFP or SFP+ module in the switch's cage and run a cable?

The problem to be solved is that you want to be able to put fibre inside the walls of the building instead of copper. Running a new cable to the switch closet is the thing to be prevented.

But if the wall jacks are fibre then you need some economical way of hooking them up to every printer and single-purpose device with a network port. If you have to buy another $100+ switch just to get from fibre to copper even when there is only one device near that jack, people aren't going to go for that.

mschuster91 2 days ago|||
In practice though 10G via copper requires pretty perfect terminations. The slightest error leads to crosstalk issues.
JonChesterfield 1 day ago|||
Ymmv. I've got a mix of cheap premade patch cables and some I crimped from solid core, all cat5e, all holding 10gbe totally happily. I suspect that only works because they're a meter or two long but that reaches across the rack.
userbinator 10 hours ago|||
NICs have DSPs to cancel out crosstalk.
userbinator 2 days ago|||
Good thing the ranges for 25Gbase-T are short enough to make it impractical for home use.

Anyone who talks about 25GBASE-T like it actually exists, doesn't know anything about what they're talking about.

eqvinox 1 day ago||
Or is speaking in future terms.

40Gbase-T will never exist, sure. 25Gbase-T very likely will.

spockz 2 days ago|||
Is the energy consumption inherent to 10Gbase-T? Or is it that 1Gbit nics have been around forever and optimised ad infinitum?

To be fair, the power consumption is also my biggest gripe with my WiFi 6 AP, they run extremely hot.

eqvinox 1 day ago||
It's inherently worse than anything fibre, or even DAC cables (which are kinda cheating.) It needs a shitton of analog "magic" to work with the bandwidth limitations of copper cabling.
teleforce 1 day ago|||
Just wondering why you considered DAC cables cheating, is the analog magic mainly the impedance matching or I'm missing something?
eqvinox 1 day ago||
DAC cables are cheating because due to the extremely short range limits (5m, 7m if you're very lucky) they can just put the 10Gbase-R/SFI signal straight on a pair of Copper at 10.3125 Gbaud.

10Gbase-T, to try to get to 100m, throws FEC on it and converts the signal to 4x PAM-16/THP at 800 Mbd, and then uses 4 copper pairs *bidirectionally*. That's the analog magic.

spockz 1 day ago|||
Okay. Sure. But why do we notice that on 10GbaseT and on 1? Is there some signal processing which is exponentially expensive at faster speeds? I’ve seen cards using 25W per port.
eqvinox 1 day ago||
cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47908287

Yes, that signal processing is massively more expensive. A 10Gbase-T PHY is a sophisticated DSP. Not sure if the power needs are exponential, given we only have a few data points, but it's in the ballpark.

(1000base-T PHYs are already DSPs, but nowhere near as sophisticated)

ciupicri 1 day ago|||
How easy can an ordinary home user install fiber in his home compared to a good old wire?
sixdonuts 17 hours ago|||
Fiber is way easier to run than copper. If you already have copper just use that to run the fiber.
markonen 1 day ago|||
There’s nothing hard about it if you can run pre-terminated patches. Which you typically can since the connectors are so small.
ciupicri 1 day ago||
So you're saying users could buy stuff like this? "25m (82ft) Fiber Patch Cable, 1 Fiber, SC APC Simplex to SC APC Simplex, Single Mode (OS2), Riser (OFNR), 2.0mm, Tight-Buffered, Yellow", https://www.fs.com/eu-en/products/282133.html?attribute=1031...

Heck, I don't even know what I should buy for 10G SFP+ ports and a distance of say 30 meters. Guess, I'm back to CAT6 :-)

eqvinox 1 day ago|||
> Guess, I'm back to CAT6 :-)

If you learned what you need for 10GbT you can learn what you need for 10GbLR. Which is:

LC connector, PC or UPC, duplex, OS1 or OS2, and SFP+ modules saying "LR".

Any of the following is wrong: SC, FC, LSH, E2000, ST, APC, simplex, OM[1-5], "SR" or "ER" SFPs.

And that's short enough.

markonen 1 day ago|||
LC connectors are smaller and what the actual SFP+ modules typically have. If you want to run a link with just one fiber, you need BiDi optics.

FS does custom multi-fiber cable assemblies too (beyond the duplex patches which is basically the standard), and they can also include pull eyes on them if that’d be helpful.

Single mode is a good choice, common wisdom used to be multimode for short runs but the single mode stuff is not much more expensive and the standard 10km optics will likely brute force the signal over any mistakes like cable kinks or dirt on the connectors.

wpm 1 day ago||
Nothing in my home has SFP ports other than my routers and my primary network switch (two, hooked up to the routers). All of my computers and USB adapters for laptops expect RJ45 at 10/100/1000/2500/5000/10000 Mbps. None of my runs are over 50 ft.

So IDGAF about how much "better" fiber is. It's unfathomably worse when you factor in the cost and work I'd need to do to convert everything and every new adapter I'd have to buy or build (can I get an $80 USB SFP adapter? Do I have a cable?). The extra marginal cost in electricity will take longer than the lifetime of my equipment to exceed the cost of redoing everything.

souravroy78 1 day ago|
Can these support local LLM’s?