Top
Best
New

Posted by milkglass 22 hours ago

The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code(techtrenches.dev)
1099 points | 787 commentspage 10
trhway 21 hours ago|
Isn't that is the point of technological civilization development? People for example forgot how to weave on the handloom, or all the parts production and the maintenance for the watermills. And wooden sailships - top mastery of handling and engineering developed for millennia, gone.

As it was said - the future is here, it just distributed non-uniformly, so somebody is still and will be for some time sailing, manufacturing things and writing code.

ktallett 21 hours ago||
We have both forgotten how to make things and also decided we can make more profit letting someone else make everything for every market. We have moved to a generation fixated on maximizing profit. However there is logic there as the cost to access the ability to make things is prohibitively expensive. As someone who makes open hardware with a nod to the environment and reusability, you can not justify or even find more locally sourced options than China.

Coding is different though, coding doesn't have a cost barrier, it has a ability barrier. I think we will loose a lot of people who never were passionate about programming and perhaps go back to a happy equilibrium. AI is only production ready if you have someone who understands software development. AI will improve speed to market if you have the right team, it doesn't remove the need for some to learn to code. You will of course end up with startups using exclusively AI but they will be those who end up with major security breaches or simply cannot scale as the AI goes in the wrong direction for the future. Tbh that's probably a positive as it weeds out the start ups that are focused on buzzwords for funding and not product.

xantronix 20 hours ago||
No matter what happens to the viability of software development as a career, I will always care about the craft as I have done the past twenty years and change. The imperatives to adopt LLMs in situations where they do not benefit me nor my work is what is driving me away. I have to agree with latexr; the people who seem to benefit the most from the current moment are those who see software as a means to an end without much concern for quality, longevity, nor customer experience.

Why is speed-to-market such an important metric? I do not understand the need to mimic the largest players in the industry, nor do I see any particularly profound long term benefits to first mover advantage.

latexr 21 hours ago||
> I think we will loose a lot of people who never were passionate about programming

Anecdotally, what I’m seeing right now is the opposite. People who don’t care about programming are joining, while those who do care are getting tired of the bullshit and leaving. The good programmers are the ones leaving, the hacks are extremely happy to use LLMs.

When shit hits the fan, there won’t be many people left to clean it.

trick-or-treat 20 hours ago||
So you see people who don't care about programming, joining and getting comfortable with vscode and claude code and devops?

Because it seems to me like there's a lot of coding-adjacent things they still need to be able to do even if they never look at a line of code.

latexr 20 hours ago||
Those examples are nonsensical. None of those are necessary to get working code. The VSCode example is particularly baffling. Firstly, I’m sure you understand there are other editors people use for code; secondly, I know even people who don’t code who have picked up VSCode for text editing and are fine with it.
trick-or-treat 17 hours ago||
I think you haven't dealt with a lot of non-coders. 90% of the world will not be able to even open a .py
threepts 13 hours ago|||
90 percent of the world doesn't need to be able to open a .py, when their 20 dollar a month agent does it for them.

Just like how we don't need to be able to open our kernels and manually update the OS, the software company does it for us. It helps knowing the kernel, but you can still get the security updates even if you don't know how to.

latexr 17 hours ago|||
> I think you haven't dealt with a lot of non-coders.

And I think you should avoid making assumptions about people you know nothing about. That is so far from the truth it’s not even funny.

> 90% of the world will not be able to even open a .py

Which is nowhere near my argument. I’d appreciate if you engaged with what I said or not at all.

trick-or-treat 3 hours ago||
I don't know why you're trying to start a fight about this to be honest. I never said coders need to use vscode but yes they need to be comfortable with opening files in some editor obviously.

I'm sure you have a problem with that statement too but keep it to yourself because I don't want to hear it.

zwischenzug 18 hours ago||
It's a great story, and a nicely written piece.

But civilisations have always forgotten things and then had to re-engineer them. We only recently recreated Roman-equivalent concrete; knowledge required to create the Saturn V rockets had to be re-engineered; we can't recreate medieval stained glass exactly, or Viking Ulfberht Swords; we would struggle to create Betamax tape today.

Many of the examples I found (as expected) relate to military or commercially sensitive technology that did not get written down (for obvious reasons).

It also reminded me when I read Thomas Thwaites' "The Toaster Project: Or a Heroic Attempt to Build a Simple Electric Appliance from Scratch", where to make a smelter from scratch he relied on a 450 year old book ("De re metallica" by Georgius Agricola), as well as a friendly Metallurgist.

We already lost the widespread ability to write assembler in an artisinal way. Now we have AI we will also be lazy about how we write individual bits of artisinal code. So what? Yes it will cost more (in time and money) when we need to re-engineer, but how much would it cost to keep alive all the knowledge and skills we might possibly need in the future?

We had better make sure we write down and preserve the recorded data though :)

komali2 12 hours ago||
If it's any consolation, this isn't unique to "the West," AI programming has completely taken over in the PRC as well.
j45 12 hours ago||
One thing you can't really rule out American ingenuity is deciding to do something.

What America did with developing Shale Oil to become viable, so quickly is one example.

diogenescynic 12 hours ago||
We've forgotten how to do most basic things. Roads are paved terribly, food quality is equally gross, our colleges are diploma mills, homes are built like crap... Everything has steadily been going in the wrong direction my entire life. It feels like we're almost in a dark age where basic skills from a generation ago are being forgotten.
clutter55561 19 hours ago||
The same “forgetting pattern” can be said of assembly, hardware, combustion cars, radio, heck, even making fire.

There will always be specialists who can really debug stuff. Mechanics, etc. Time moves on, and we need to move with it.

I’m amazed at this “end-of-world” crap. People use AI to write this shit, to make it even crazier.

scotty79 14 hours ago||
I think comments on such posts have bimodal distribution. On one end there are people who see the utility of AI models for programming and are generally eager to see more capable models and ways of using them. On the other there are people who see AI destroying programming and have no idea how AI could change to be a force for good.

I had idea what might be the difference between the groups. I think for the latter group the code is important part of the goal. They see software as rather ends than means. Not entirely of course.

And the first group considers artifacts that the software produces to be the goal. So as long as AI written software is capable of producing valuable artifact they are willing and eager to go with it. And AI does that.

If the result of my code is finetuning of a neural network, I don't really care how it happened. I can benchmark it afterwards and know if the code that AI made for this purpose was good or not. I can inspect the code, investigate it, pinpoint ideas I don't like, suggest some ideas to try that I believe could give better results. I can restart, or try doing same thing few times in parallel trying different harnesses and models. All in service of the result, that is not code.

If you have a program that needs to do something and are willing to try AI to write it, think foremost about how you can rephrase the problem so that the output of AI written program becomes an artifact that can be independently verified, how to turn desired behavior into an artifact to evaluate.

FrustratedMonky 15 hours ago||
"A METR randomized controlled trial found that experienced developers using AI coding tools actually took 19% longer on real-world open source tasks. Before starting, they predicted AI would make them 24% faster. The gap between prediction and reality was 43 percentage points."

This is weird, but does seem a common result.

-> AI generates a ton of code fast, but then the human takes a long time to review. Every time the prompt changes. The AI takes a few minutes to generate code that the human will take hour to review.

The reviewing is taking longer than if human just did the code. So why is it so difficult to go back to coding instead of prompting.?

dana321 15 hours ago|
You are not using as much of your brain (solving problems, thinking etc.) so you end up in a cycle of becoming stupider and stupider the more you use ai, so eventually your prompts get worse and worse then you start asking "why is it not working as good as it was two weeks ago"
More comments...