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Posted by milkglass 1 day ago

The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code(techtrenches.dev)
1132 points | 812 commentspage 14
brrraaah 1 day ago||
[flagged]
shevy-java 1 day ago||
> I run engineering teams in Ukraine. My people lived the other side of this equation. Not the factory floor. The receiving end.

With all due respect, but many european taxpayers help pay for Ukraine. I am not disagreeing on the premise of the West killing itself via systematic recessions - Trump invading Iran leading to inflation as an example - so a lot of things are going on that show a ton of incompetency both in the USA and the EU, but at the same time I also get question marks in my eyes when this criticism comes from a country that receives money from others. That money could instead go to make EU countries more competitive, for instance. I am not saying this should necessarily be the case, mind you; I fully understand the nature of Putin's imperialism. But we need to really consider all factors when it comes to strategic mistakes with regards to production - and that includes taking up debts all the time. There are always a few who benefit in war, just as they benefit from subsidies from taxpayers (inside and outside as well).

skhr0680 1 day ago|
Ukraine is "receiving money from others"? We are benefactors of the Ukrainians' bravery and sacrifices. How much money could we have not spent if Hitler had been stopped in Czechoslovakia?
crotobloste 1 day ago|||
> Ukraine is "receiving money from others"?

Factually correct.

> We are benefactors of the Ukrainians' bravery and sacrifices.

Who's we?

> How much money could we have not spent if Hitler had been stopped in Czechoslovakia?

Very different situation, in all aspects.

collinfunk 1 day ago||
You see zero similarities between Hitler invading Poland and Putin invading Ukraine?
brabel 1 day ago|||
As similar as any country who ever invaded any other country?!
roenxi 1 day ago|||
There are some pretty substantial differences. Russia is on the strategic back foot here trying to figure out a way to stop NATO's advance. They've only turned to violence after long attempts at resolving the tension diplomatically and the US has been implacable. Putin's actually been pretty hesitant in his escalations so far; he's 70 and has a long history of trying to avoid war.

Hitler was more about wanting more land and resources for Germany, and he saw war as being a legitimate tool for achieving his aims that he deployed early and enthusiastically.

defrost 1 day ago|||
NATO has advanced into which part of Russia?
roenxi 1 day ago||
Not Russia, Eastern Europe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO
defrost 1 day ago|||
So, NATO hasn't advanced into Russia then?

Just Russia advancing into the Ukraine (after promising not to if the USSR nukes were given to Russia)?

Gotcha.

brabel 1 day ago||
I know it’s what about ism but I really hope you apply the same logic when Cuba once more tried to enter an alliance with Russia or China to defend itself against a larger aggressor next door. So while I agree that Russia should allow Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO, I also think that’s only fair if countries like Brazil, Cuba and Venezuela are freely allowed to determine their futures by joining Russia, China and Iran military alliances. But you and I know that’s not going to happen. So please let’s stop pretending we don’t have double standards.
defrost 1 day ago||
As you've chosen to address me directly I'll reply honestly, I have zero concern about Cuba, Venezuela, any of the 190+ countries on the planet, wanting to join or form BRICs.

I have considerably more concern about the ability of a post MAGA USofA to successfully navigate such a world via soft power as they appear to have flushed all the competent diplomatic talent down a golden toilet.

justsomehnguy 18 hours ago||
> I have zero concern about Cuba, Venezuela, any of the 190+ countries on the planet

But somehow you are extremely concerned about one country which is on the other side of planet of you.

defrost 16 hours ago||
Pardon my ignorance here;

which country are you talking about, what trade bloc are they trying to join, and what extreme concern have I expressed?

rcxdude 1 day ago|||
Eastern Europe is not Russia and Russia does not automatically get a say in what Eastern Europe does because they are nearby. Russia seems to believe it is entitled to a sphere of influence. That the US does a milder version of what they're doing (which is also wrong) doesn't make their approach OK (or even effective).
wiseowise 1 day ago||||
> Russia is on the strategic back foot here trying to figure out a way to stop NATO's advance. They've only turned to violence after long attempts at resolving the tension diplomatically and the US has been implacable. Putin's actually been pretty hesitant in his escalations so far; he's 70 and has a long history of trying to avoid war.

Is that why Russians rejected negotiations when Ukraine offered to never join NATO and Russians insist on keeping invaded territories?

resonancel 15 hours ago||||
Did Putin do anything meaningful to stop "NATO's advance" into the Baltic Sea? Maybe Putin was so pacifist that he let Sweden and Finland join the NATO with impunity.
collinfunk 1 day ago||||
> There are some pretty substantial differences. Russia is on the strategic back foot here trying to figure out a way to stop NATO's advance.

His rationale for invading Ukraine was to "demilitarise and denazify" it. The NATO point seems largely be invented by people who dislike NATO in the west.

> They've only turned to violence after long attempts at resolving the tension diplomatically and the US has been implacable.

I hope the "tension" you are referring to was not the little green men taking over Crimea and the Donbas in 2014.

> Putin's actually been pretty hesitant in his escalations so far; he's 70 and has a long history of trying to avoid war.

This is a totally unseriousness statement. Can you remind me what Putin was doing in Syria again?

roenxi 1 day ago||
There's an english transcript [0] of his speech from when they went in up on the Kremin website. He opened with something like

> I will begin with what I said in my address on February 21, 2022. I spoke about our biggest concerns and worries, and about the fundamental threats which irresponsible Western politicians created for Russia consistently, rudely and unceremoniously from year to year. I am referring to the eastward expansion of NATO, which is moving its military infrastructure ever closer to the Russian border.

They're claiming the NATO thing is relevant. Opening paragraph justification.

[0] http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/67843

8954789543547 1 day ago|||
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gib444 1 day ago|||
> Ukraine is "receiving money from others"?

Yes. https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america...

latexr 1 day ago||
You are completely ignoring the argument of your parent comment. They are saying that money is being spent to the benefit and best interest of the spenders, that it’s not a handout.

You are, of course, free to disagree and make your point, but ignoring the argument does not advance the discussion.

dev_l1x_be 1 day ago||
As an anecdotal evidence I code way more now with agents because i have an entity who has vast amount of knowledge about pretty much everything and I have the creativity to use that well.
bit1993 1 day ago|
But you already knew how to code before LLM coding agents, juniors will jump straight into using agents without learning to code by hand, hence the premise of the article.
sminchev 17 hours ago||
This is like saying: nobody can do woodworking with with manual tools anymore these days, because there are machines since 30 years that do woodworking.

There will be always a room for good developers.

d3Xt3r 16 hours ago|
Yes, but it's very hard to find quality handmade furniture these days, or even capable carpenters for that matter. I visited a few older relatives recently and realised most of them have really well made 50+ yr old pieces of furniture with detailed, intricate design - which you can't get these days.

And unfortunately the same trend is already being seen in code - just look at the vast amount of utterly rubbish apps going around. Even popular apps like BitWarden are being coded in Javascript and built with Electron, and somehow people think that's acceptable. I was shocked to find out recently that even bitwarden-cli was also coded in Javascript.

And now AI has just compounded the problem exponentially. Just look at the state of Windows 11 for instance, which I'm forced to use at work. Thankfully, Linux and macOS are faring a bit better, but for how long?

Sure, good developers may always exist, but I'm afraid their work will get drowned in a sea of garbage - and we're forced to swim in it.

sminchev 7 hours ago||
I fully agree with the garbage. It is extremely difficult to release a product these days. Everybody are trying to vibecode something, without any knowledge of basic software development, validation, reviews, specifications. Even if there is something good, and written with focus on the details, it just can't popup and be seen, because the overproduction of software.
lava_pidgeon 1 day ago||
Rather bad premise in the article. 1.) Germany, Italy and Eastern Europe are very industrial regions. The author forgets defence is not only the industry. 2.) The author doesn't show any source that Chinese developers don't use AI
whatever1 1 day ago||
I don’t know, but the evidence shows that software engineering is not that deep of an art.

People come and go at rates that would not be sustainable in any manufacturing business.

heisenbit 1 day ago||
Yes, businesses tend to believe that.

No, every time people switch knowledge gets lost and code quality degrades.

In part I blame accounting rules justifying investments is easier than maintenance.

wg0 1 day ago||
Interesting take. We are not going to talk about Office, Windows, Adobe or Autodesk products here. Neither Linux kernel.

Just classified ads or e-commerce platforms such as gumroad and shopify are complex enough that a single person cannot master them end to end. The domain is huge to master and takes a lots of time to master.

whatever1 17 hours ago||
Have you ever seen a tech company calling a 65y.o. retired wizard to debug a system failure? I doubt it.

In manufacturing it so regular, that typically senior technical people retire as soon as possible to form their consulting firms and charge much higher rates, just by selling their multi-decade expertise back to their company.

In oil & gas, there are consulting firms that their role is to just store and provide domain knowledge to companies who lost their experts.

In tech, consulting firms provide cheap labor.

wg0 8 hours ago||
Software is code and code is documentation. Do you know MAME that is documenting the arcade consoles as code? And that they work is just a side effect and is not an intended goal?

That doesn't mean that MAME is a trivial project. Far from it. It'll take you several years to get proficient with the whole codebase.

Just that unlike manufacturing, the software is much more self contained and everything is in those files including how to build them.

throwaway2037 1 day ago|
Click/rage bait?

The opening paragraph is ridiculous. The FIM-92 Stinger is obsolete. It was replaced by FGM-148 Javelin. DACH (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) didn't forget how to make things. They are still world class for manufacturing. (Northern Italy is also economically part of that manufacturing mega-hub.)

There are plenty of NLAWs (much cheaper than Javelin, and only slightly less capable) in EU/Nato stocks to satisfy Ukraine needs against Russian heavily armed main battle tanks. For everything else, you can use one or two suicide drones to kill anything with a motor.

And now to give credit where credit is due:

Looking at his (assumed) LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/denjkestetskov/

It looks like he was educated in Ukraine, so likely a Ukrainan national. If I were a Ukrainan, then I too would be publishing rage bait like this in an attempt to pressure allies to provide more funding, weapons, and gear.

As a final suggestion, the writer can visually spice up his blog post with one of my all time favourite military photos from Wiki: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AFIM-92_Stinger_USM...

InkCanon 1 day ago||
The Stinger is an anti air weapon, the Javelin is an anti tank weapon.
numpad0 1 day ago|||
Stingers use that gas cooled spinny thingy. They're not FLIR based like 9X are.
sounddetective 1 day ago||
So you published this comment with an anti-Ukrainian spin, and just 2 minutes after posting, your comment is already at the top of comment rankings? I hope HN mods follow inauthentic upvote / comment behaviour on this site; this looks fishy.
SyneRyder 1 day ago||
New comments get posted to the top for visibility. The 2 minutes is the key point here. If the comment doesn't get enough upvotes it will sink down, like it has now about 30 minutes later.