Posted by unignorant 6 hours ago
I think Vera might be missing something here. In my experience, LLMs code better the less of a mental model you need, vs the more is in text on the page.
Go – very little hidden, everything in text on the page, LLMs are great. Java, similar. But writing Haskell, it's pretty bad, Erlang, not wonderful. You need much more of a mental model for those languages.
For Vera, not having names removes key information that the model would have, and replaces it with mental modelling of the stack of arguments.
"No LLM has ever been trained on Vera. There are no Vera examples on GitHub, no Stack Overflow answers, no tutorials — the language was created after these models' training cutoffs. Every token of Vera code in these results was written by a model that learned the language entirely from a single document (SKILL.md [https://veralang.dev/SKILL.md]) provided in the prompt at evaluation time."
If LLMs do much better with Vera (or something like it) than with traditional languages, we may be entering a time when most machine-written code will be difficult for humans to review - but maybe that ship has already sailed.
I’m surprised by this. Most likely significant white space is a big part of the problem (LLMs seem horrible at white space). Functional with types has been a win for me with Gleam.
Surely, denser languages should be better for LLMs?
I think in the context of already trained LLMs, the languages most suited to LLMs are also the ones most suited to humans. Besides just having the most code to train on, humans also face similar limitations, if the language is too dense they have to be very careful in considering how to do something, if it's too sparse, the code becomes a pain to maintain.
The right granularity for agents isn't files or lines, it's entities: functions, classes, methods. That's how both humans and agents actually think about code.
We built sem(Ataraxy-Labs/sem) which extracts entities from 30+ languages via tree-sitter and builds a cross-file dependency graph, so building semantic version control and semantic diff. weave (same org) takes it further and does git merges at entity level. Matches functions by name, merges their bodies independently.
The dependency graph also answers questions LLMs can't. I love the analysis based on ASTs.
If I had to design one of these, I'd go for:
1. Token minimization (which may be circular, I'm sure tokens are selected for these models at least in part based on syntax of popular languages)
2. As many compile time checks as possible (good for humans, even better for machines with limited context)
3. Maximum locality. That is, a feature can largely be written in one file, rather than bits and pieces all over the codebase. Because of how context and attention work. This is the one I don't see much in commercially popular languages. It's more of a declarative thing, "configuration driven development".
So, orthogonal to the accepted, common code organization idiom (no matter how infrequently adhered to)?
Fascinating! Just the other day I decomposed a massive Demeter violation into stepwise proxying "message passing." I was concerned that implementing this entire feature—well, at least a solid chunk of it— as a single, feature-scoped module would cause the next developers eyes to glaze over upon encountering such a ball-of-mud, such a dense vortex of spaghetti.
But, as I drove home that evening, I couldn't help wonder if I hadn't, instead, merely buried the gordian lede behind so many ribbons of silk.
This seems to be at odds with the goal of token minimization. Lots of small files that are narrowly scoped means less has to be loaded into context when making a change, right?
Throwing out another idea: I wonder if we could see some kind of equivalent of c header files for more modern languages so that an llm just has to read the equivalent of a .h file to start using a library.
my solution (as someone that's building something tangential) is to use granular levels of scope - there should be an implicit single file that gets generated from a package at a certain phase of the static tool processing. But the package is still split into files for flexibility and DevEx (developper experience). Files/Folder organization is super useful for humans. For tooling, the pacakge can be taken collected together, and taken as a single unit, but still decomposed based on things like namespace, and top-level definitions that define things like classes, specifications, etc. That way the tooling has control over how much context to pass in.
Similarly, I don't read the whole file a function is in while editing it in an IDE, why should a coding agent get the whole file polluting its context by default?
But, I wonder, do AST-aware tools cleave to the LLM training manifold the way coding-tutorial slop does?
There is no actual thought occurring. Arguably, we can say the same about a lot of humans at any given moment, but with machines there never is. It's all statistics.
Yes, you’re adding this layer of verification, but LLMs don’t think in ASTs or use formal logic.
They are statistical predictors, just predicting what the next token will be.
There is a reason they perform best with TS/PY and not Haskell. The difference in size of the code corpus for each language.
The premise behind this seems to ignore all of that.
It doesn't have Hindley-Milner type inference, but it has very strong type inference.
We will get linearity soon thanks to and as part of the Capybara[1] effort.
Refinement types are already long a reality.
The whole new effect tracking thing is based on delimited continuations.
The Unison style content addressability comes up now and then, maybe it will become a reality at some point. It's though mostly not a language thing but more a build system thing.
Scala is already great for for LLMs also for other reasons:
https://arxiv.org/html/2510.11151v1
[1] https://2025.workshop.scala-lang.org/details/scala-2025/6/Sy...
Seemingly opposing forces.
The major design decision I'm a little skeptical about is removing variable names; it would be interesting to see empirical data on that as it seems a bit unintuitive. I would expect almost the opposite, that variable names give LLMs some useful local semantics.
Elaborate a little here.
C# can do something similar with null references. It can require you to indicate which arguments and variables are capable of being null, and then compiler error/warning if you pass it to something that expects a non-null reference without a null check.
The problem is these checks can be rather slow and people don’t want to wait a long time for their type checking and analyzers to finish. But LLMs can both wait longer and by internalizing the logic can reduce the number of times it will need to trigger them.
Edit: I’ll need to examine this project to know where (or if) they draw the distinction between normal type checking and a post type check analyzer. If they blend the two and throw the whole thing into Z3 it’ll work but it’ll be needlessly slow.
Edit: What I’m calling a post type check anyalizer they’re calling a contract verifier and it’s a distinct stage with ‘check’ (type check) then ‘verify’ (Z3).
So, in pseudocode
int div(int a, int b): return a / b;
Would probably be a compile time error, but
int div(int a, int b): return b == 0 ? ERR : (a /b);
Would not, or at least that's what I'd expect.
Yes there is. Dependently typed languages like Idris can inspect terms at the value-level during compile time. Rather, instead of proving that the divisor will be zero, you must instead statically prove that the divisor cannot be zero; otherwise the code will not typecheck.
int integer_division(int a, int b) { if (b!=0) return a/b; raise(SIGFPE); }
Great.
Or maybe it's over your head and you should just stick to reading children's fiction after all. Want some colouring books too?
The whole things looks vibe-coded, and vibe-designed.