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Posted by hggh 7 days ago

The vi family(lpar.ath0.com)
202 points | 127 commentspage 4
casey2 8 hours ago|
Sam isn't graphical there is sam and samterm which sends commands to sam. sam itself is an ed style line editor, where the concept of a line is replaced with a dot. vis allows multiple dots.

It's worth noting that a lot of the text editing done in the vi family are just calls to ed with different ways of doing selections.

yu3zhou4 5 hours ago||
There was onivim that was a bit hyped a few years ago but unfortunately it died
rax0m 5 hours ago||
Interesting that there is such a clearly stated differentiation between projects that use "LLM-generated code" and those who don't.

I wonder how it went for the farms that stuck to "non-tractor-generated crops" in the 1900s.

thih9 5 hours ago||
Early tractors were attempted in 1800s but most farmers ignored them as they were complex, expensive and occasionally exploded[1].

Sounds familiar.

[1]: “However, even though steam-powered tractors provided an alternative to draft animals, the size, mechanical complexity and risk of explosion rendered these tractors unusable for most farms.” https://www.volocars.com/blog/history-of-tractors-in-agricul...

ArcHound 5 hours ago||
Pretty well if you consider the "bio" label, which is a set of practices not using all of the tech. They can ask for and usually get higher prices for the products.

Granted, it's more about chemicals than tractors, but still quite close to the spirit of the comments. Bio approach sacrifices some tech advances.

strenholme 3 hours ago||
This list is very useful; Vile isn’t quite Vi, but it’s close enough, and it includes a Windows32 binary which works with CP-1252 [1] (albeit in a separate window), and fits in under 700k (7-zip compressed).

What I wish existed was a fork of Busybox Vi which fully supports UTF-8. I’ve looked at the code and it would require a considerable rewrite to make it UTF-8 compatible, so I can see why it hasn’t been done.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows-1252

crabbone 3 hours ago||
If the author is reading this: would be nice to have a "family tree" diagram.
DeathArrow 8 hours ago||
I have nothing against Vi or Emacs, but since I strongly prefer GUI and mouse over terminal I use GUI editors.

When I don't have a GUI available, I use micro, nano, joe.

opan 6 hours ago||
I'm more in the vim camp, but I will say emacs has one of the best GUIs out there. Everything that works in the terminal still works (great keyboard accessibility), plus you get additional benefits, like proper window separation that isn't just a text character drawing an imaginary line (so copying lines of text with the mouse when you have a bunch of splits is easier). There's also image support, you can connect to a server with TRAMP, open up dired, and view remote images right in emacs. I always thought that was cool.

Vim on the other hand never felt like it benefited much from a GUI, or like it had a very good one available. I just use neovim in a terminal.

tmtvl 3 hours ago|||
I expect the vast majority of Emacs users to use the GUI rather than the TUI. In fact, the way I learned Emacs was by clicking on 'Help' in the menu bar and then on 'Emacs Tutorial'.
berkes 5 hours ago|||
With vim/nvim/gvim etc, you can use both.

Granted, the UI is still TUI, so items like panes, tabs, nerdtree, quickfix, :help windows etc are rendered with characters, but you can drag borders, mouse-select text, click files, focus panes by clicking, scroll-wheel, etc.

pjio 6 hours ago||
Being able to choose is a good thing. Use what works for you. I prefer the terminal, but not as hard core as switching to a TTY and never see a GUI again...
karel-3d 6 hours ago||
honestly only LLMs can write Vimscript
yanis_t 7 hours ago|
It’s funny how many forks aiming to keep it free from LLM-generated code. The luddites are present even in the most progressive parts of the population.
remix2000 43 minutes ago||
Luddites didn't protest against automation, but rather against inhumane working conditions in factories and smashing their machines just happened to be efficient at destroying profit. So in a way, you could say luddites acknowledge technology for what it is, it's just techbros who fail to comprehend basic facts about machine learning and pushing text compression models as a replacement for everything they (don't) know anything about.
aiscoming 6 hours ago|||
vi was never progressive, it was "the Ancients knew it better, the present sucks, these kids have terrible taste, return to the one true Past"
yanis_t 1 hour ago|||
Well, I use Vi (NeoVim) and love it. In fact I use it with language servers and Copilot (LLM) and couldn't be happier. You can't get any more modern than that.
nananana9 5 hours ago|||
The Ancients did know it better.

I sometimes try working without vim keybindings as it's a pain installing them everywhere. I usually give up the 3rd time I have to delete a function argument and can't dt, or select the body of a function and can't vi{.

For everyone even somewhat decent at vim, having to hold right arrow until the cursor reaches the target is a humiliation ritual, and I genuinely feel second-hand embarrassment and pity when I see people do that.

aiscoming 5 hours ago|||
allow me to quote the Ancients, the vi creator himself:

> What would you do differently?

> JOY: I wish we hadn't used all the keys on the keyboard.

> ...

> JOY: The fundamental problem with vi is that it doesn't have a mouse and therefore you've got all these commands. In some sense, its backwards from the kind of thing you'd get from a mouse-oriented thing.

> Its like one of those pinatas - things that have candy inside but has layer after layer of paper mache on top. It doesn't really have a unified concept. I think if I were going to go back - I wouldn't go back, but start over again.

shots fired:

> JOY: I can just look at my screen, and when I print it off, it's the same as it looks on the screen. It is formatted, and I'm tired of using vi. I get really bored. There have been many nights when I've fallen asleep at the keyboard trying to make a release. At least now I can fall asleep with a mouse in my hand. I use the Xerox optica mouse instead of the other one because it is color coordinated with my office. Did you notice? I prefer the white mouse to the black mouse. You've got to have some fun, right?

http://xahlee.info/comp/interview_with_bill_joy.html

elch 4 hours ago||
That's why it's so complicated, and has left and right parentheses commands. You start out with a clean concept and then sort of accrete guano. It lands on you and sticks and you can't do anything about it really.

But of course he was wrong about 1991-2026:

The days of non-raster stuff are numbered, though sheer momentum will carry it to the end of the decade.

And about AT&T as the same year (1984) they introduced BLIT terminal:

The fundamental tension in UNIX that I think AT&T doesn't understand is that everyone is going to have a bitmap.

https://youtu.be/Pr1XXvSaVUQ

flaunf221 3 hours ago|||
The Ancients used HJKL instead of JKL: - which is where fingers rest with proper touch typing - simply because the ancients had keyboard with arrows drawn at HJKL. It's a copy-paste design.
skydhash 1 hour ago||
My pinkies are not that strong to have to rely on the right one for navigation. I usually move my whole hand to press with the pinkies.
keybored 4 hours ago||
I think you are wrong. Luddites don’t seem to exist any more, at least not on this board. Luddites had the courage to smash machines. People on this board might have complaints about LLM but then they will say well what can I do, protesting these developments is not on the Story Board.

Of course this is a total digression.