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Posted by stefanpie 12 hours ago

Canvas is down as ShinyHunters threatens to leak schools’ data(www.theverge.com)
https://thetech.com/2026/05/07/canvas-breach-26

https://techcrunch.com/2026/05/07/hackers-deface-school-logi...

688 points | 418 comments
blahedo 9 hours ago|
Perspective from the trenches: I teach at a university that uses Canvas. We are in our final exams period right now.

We got our first email (from Academic Affairs) notifying us that it was down at 5:17pm EDT this afternoon, with little info; followup emails were sent at 6:24 and 6:57 with more info, but mostly about how we would be compensating for it and not about what actually was going on (other than, "nationwide shutdown" and "cybersecurity attacks", no further detail). I don't get a sense that they know much more than that, not that I would expect them to.

A perhaps telling detail: they're instructing us to have students email us directly with any work that had been submitted via Canvas. That suggests that they have no particular confidence that it will come back up soon.

I personally am only slightly affected; as a CS professor a lot of my students' work is done on department machines, and submitted that way, and I do the actual exams on paper. More importantly, I've never liked or trusted Canvas's gradebook, and so although I do upload grades to Canvas so students can see them, my primary gradebook is always a spreadsheet I maintain locally.

But I have a lot of colleagues for whom this is catastrophic at a level of "the whole building burnt down with all my exams and gradebooks in it"---even many of those that teach 100% in person have shifted much or all of their assessment into Canvas (using the Canvas "quiz" feature for everything up to and including final exams), and use the Canvas gradebook as their source-of-truth record. We've been encouraged to do so by our administration ("it makes submitting grades easier"). For faculty in that situation, they have few or zero artifacts that the students have produced, the students themselves don't have the artifacts to resubmit via email because they were done in Canvas in the first place, and they have no record of student grades or even attendance (because they managed that all inside Canvas). I guess they have access to the advisory midterm grades from March, if they submitted them (most do, some don't), but that might be it.

My gut feeling on this is that this is either resolved in hours (they have airgapped backups and can be working as soon as they can spin up new servers), or weeks (they don't). Very little in-between. And if that's true and we wake up tomorrow with this unresolved, I really have no idea what a lot of professors at my university and across the country are going to do to submit grades that are fair and reasonable. In the extreme case, they may have to revert to something we did in the pandemic semester (and before that, at my school, in the semester that two major academic buildings actually did burn to the ground a week before finals): let classes that normally count for a grade just submit grades as pass-fail. Because what else can you do?

(Well, one thing you can do is not put your eggs all in one basket, and not trust "the cloud" quite so much, but that ship's already sailed. I do wonder if in the longer term, anybody learns any lessons from this....)

UPDATE: As of 11:45pm EDT, my university's canvas instance is up and running! Here's hoping it stays (but I'll be downloading some stuff just in case...)

JumpCrisscross 8 hours ago||
> the students themselves don't have the artifacts to resubmit via email because they were done in Canvas

It’s so simple to send an e-mail to the student with relevant records on completion of a quiz or whatnot. They don’t do it, because they want to control the data. (And universities don’t insist on it for who knows what reason.)

gucci-on-fleek 6 hours ago|||
I've never used Canvas before, but all the LMSes that I've used allow students to enable emails whenever anything is updated, including when grades are posted. This is off by default because it's often 10+ emails a day, because many teachers post notes once a day, and with 5 classes, that adds up pretty quick. I personally have it enabled because it's pretty manageable with some custom Outlook rules, but setting this up is well beyond the capabilities of most students.
mbreese 6 minutes ago|||
Canvas will send emails when grades are posted, but not what the grade is. Or at least that’s the way in the configurations I’ve seen. So, that wouldn’t help in a case where no one can access the canvas gradebook.
dotancohen 5 hours ago|||

  > setting this up is well beyond the capabilities of most students.
Setting up custom email filters is beyond the capabilities of most students? What are they learning? Where will they be qualified to work?
mold_aid 32 minutes ago|||
Most of my students, across all disciplines, don't have basic competence in Word or GDocs, software they've been using for years. It's weeks to teach them how to appy headings
weird-eye-issue 5 hours ago||||
Most graduates aren't really qualified to work anywhere that they couldn't have worked before going to college in the first place.
smcin 3 hours ago||
You mean graduates of US colleges? Not colleges in general. Or non-technical graduates of US colleges?
J-Kuhn 1 hour ago||
I think they point weird-eye-issue wants to make is: Students attend college to become qualified to work.
weird-eye-issue 1 hour ago||
I think you completely misread my comment.
smcin 57 minutes ago||
I understood your comment perfectly fine. I'm asking which graduates of which colleges you were referring to. It looked like you were generalizing about US HS and colleges. If so, plenty of other countries' HS and college education systems work better, so your comment doesn't extend.
metaengies 3 hours ago||||
> Where will they be qualified to work?

Going by a certain story 2 years ago, their concern should be that they're overqualified for Meta.

It doesn't help that gmail, which is the only serious direct competition to outlook, straight up doesn't do "folders" and instead goes with markers. So you can't really just put a filter that drags all the 100 low-priority alerts in what would count as a first degree abstraction of "place where things are sorted into". No, there are two layers of abstraction between point A and B of things, sorter and sorted things. The result? Muggles can't recognize the heck you're describing and refuse to even acknowledge the possibility.

user_7832 1 hour ago|||
> It doesn't help that gmail, which is the only serious direct competition to outlook, straight up doesn't do "folders" and instead goes with markers.

While true, unless I'm mistaken, markers (I assume you're referring to tags) can be nested to provide a pseudo-folder hierarchy, and with proper filters you can remove the "inbox" tag and have the mail only show up under the specific tag.

TBH I don't fully mind it, it lets you classify an email in multiple ways (eg "See Later" as well as "Work related").

philamonster 9 minutes ago|||
People in my work and personal life experience do not understand the concept of labels in a Google inbox and misname them folders 100% of the time. Google allows you to drag-n-drop emails "into" labels like you would files in folders conflating the issue even more as the logic to automate this behaviour with a filter isn't leveraged. Even the layout of a default inbox is setup in a way that the average user has difficulty understanding what happens when an email drops off the "front page" of their inbox.
mschild 1 hour ago|||
Tags are great but I still want my folders. Also doesn't help that the way google describes some things is unnecessarily complex or confusing. For example, removing an email from the inbox requires archiving it. In most other applications (WhatsApp, Signal, Outlook, etc) archiving usually results in the email being placed in a specific archive folder that isn't readily accessible through the UI. At least not to the same level that normal emails are.
swiftcoder 33 minutes ago||||
Gmail still has perfectly functional filters that can be set to auto-apply a label and skip the inbox. They may be called "labels" now, but they still function just as they did when the UI called them "folders"
GTP 2 hours ago||||
I partially solve this by using Thunderbird on my laptop. When I get emails on my smartphone (on the Gmail app), they unfortunately all go to the inbox. But the moment I open Thunderbird, it nicely organizes them for me.
dotancohen 2 hours ago||
I use Thunderbird on both the desktop and Android. Love it.

Perhaps Outlook is difficult to configure. Thunderbird is intuitive.

teiferer 3 hours ago|||
If a CS graduate can't figure out some simple gmail labels and filters then they should not be awarded that degree. Plain and simple. It's not rocket science.
Poacher5 3 hours ago||
And there are no other students at any college other than CS students? I'm not sure why a biologist or a literature student would need to be au fait with Google's admittedly fairly unfriendly email management setup.
denkmoon 1 hour ago||
Digital literacy is important to every field. Email filters are not some arcane computer science concept, they are the modern equivalent of filing physical mail into the right folder/pidgeon hole/inbox/whatever.

Biology is a great example because of just how important digital record management is to experimentation in the field.

fooker 5 hours ago||||
I have been using email for as long as email was a thing and I still managed to blackhole important emails with filters not too long ago.
emodendroket 3 hours ago||||
Most people who have office jobs don't know how to do this either
gucci-on-fleek 5 hours ago||||
I'd hope/assume that any Computer Science students would be able to do this, but most Biology/Education/English/Art students probably couldn't.

I mean, anyone smart enough to attend university could probably figure it out if they really wanted to, but there are hundreds of other useful things that they could learn too. There are only so many hours in the day, and given that most students don't get that many emails, I can hardly blame them for not wanting to prioritize learning how to filter emails.

(I personally have over a hundred lines of Sieve filters, but I'm definitely not a typical student)

setopt 2 hours ago||||
In my experience, it’s hard enough to make students check their school email in the first place. Let alone filter it.
Scroll_Swe 2 hours ago||||
>Setting up custom email filters is beyond the capabilities of most students?

Yes. And most of the general population. They can do it once they know it exists, most people just are not aware it is a thing at all.

>What are they learning?

Here, their "major" as you say in the US. Someone in econ, biology or even CS is not going to learn Outlook rules. Maybe IT or business will have a sentence on it.

>Where will they be qualified to work?

Any office job. Any job really.

shakna 5 hours ago||||
Most managers I've met, struggle with setting up email filters, and have to ask tech support to do it for them. These students will be qualified just fine.
throawayonthe 3 hours ago||||
it's MS software, i think it's inanely difficult
mschuster91 4 hours ago|||
> What are they learning?

Exactly what is in their field of study, nothing more. That's a huge part of the problems created by treating academia as a degree mill mandatory to get a job able to feed yourself instead of a place only for those truly interested in actually studying a subject.

e28eta 8 hours ago||||
Students having records of what their score was doesn't prove to the professor / university what score they received. "FWD: Exam 1 Results" is not especially auditable.
lacunary 8 hours ago|||
If only we had some way of signing messages
JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago||||
> Students having records of what their score was doesn't prove to the professor / university what score they received

It's better than nothing. (And good training for the real world.)

Also, most universities (and many schools now) issue academic e-mail addresses to students. In those cases, the email is definitive proof.

AmblingAvocado 7 hours ago||||
DKIM signature could be used to verify that Canvas' server sent the email with the given content
nbernard 21 minutes ago|||
Good luck having people forward an email a) with headers and b) in a way that doesn't break the signature...
tempaccount5050 6 hours ago|||
And who exactly do you think is going to verify 100s of thousands of emails this way dude?
bravura 6 hours ago||
A computer?
gruez 8 hours ago||||
As opposed to a screenshot of a website? Presumably the professor has a spreadsheet of all assignment grades that is submitted to the school?
JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago|||
> Presumably the professor has a spreadsheet of all assignment grades that is submitted to the school?

This would undermine Canvas's lock-in.

freeopinion 6 hours ago|||
Canvas is built to automatically export its gradebook to an external system. It will do that automatically every day if you want it to. Teachers or others can manually export to the configured foreign system on demand. So if you grade something and want it to show up in the foreign gradebook without waiting for the daily export, you can just press the button to make it happen right away.
doctorpangloss 6 hours ago|||
i cannot believe how much benefit of the doubt people are giving canvas

ed tech is the WORST performing VC sector

the ONLY game in that town is vendor lock-in! are people joking?

c'mon, canvas is a huge piece of shit. the SaaSpocalypse is coming for them - it seems it is simply that LLMs will be used to exploit it first, rather than universities writing an open alternative they share with each other for free.

freeopinion 6 hours ago|||
Canvas is AGPL licensed. Moodle is GPL. Universities or anyone else can already contribute to big name LMS.

Canvas is used by Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, CalTech, etc. If they each paid 10 FTE, they could set up a foundation that could govern the development of a top-tier LMS. Every tier-1 state institution could contribute 5 FTE. Even little JuCos could chip in an employee here and there. You'd pick up hundreds of capable employees at a fraction of what those schools currently pay to Instructure.

freeopinion 5 hours ago|||
How well has this worked for Open edX?
gizajob 3 hours ago|||
Why do they all pay for it then? Seems pretty universal in the UK too. Is it having the benefit of someone to blame when things go wrong?
freeopinion 6 hours ago||||
On paper your idea seems obvious. You take a bunch of institutions that actually teach students how to program and have them cooperate to build an open LMS that benefits them all.

In reality, universities always spin off anything that looks like it could generate revenue. It is very telling that you can't even get your college transcript from your college. You have to go to (and pay) some third party to get it. Some universities even outsource their "classes" like elderhostel to cruise lines and travel companies.

gucci-on-fleek 6 hours ago|||
> rather than universities writing an open alternative they share with each other for free

That already exists [0], and is actually reasonably popular.

> the SaaSpocalypse is coming for them - it seems it is simply that LLMs will be used to exploit it first

I doubt it, because enterprise sales has nothing to do with how good your product is, how expensive it is, how easy it is to administer, how secure it is, etc.; it only depends on how good you are at enterprise sales. I mean, my university is Oracle-based, and I'm pretty sure that you could get 3 random undergraduates to write something better, so I don't think that LLMs writing better/cheaper software will make any difference here.

[0]: https://moodle.org/

blahedo 7 hours ago|||
Nope! We're encouraged to keep all that exclusively in canvas. (As noted, I have my own spreadsheet. But I'm an outlier.)
gucci-on-fleek 6 hours ago||||
Presumably the system will be back up eventually, so there's not much benefit to lying here, since at best you'll raise your grade in a few classes for a couple months, while taking on a pretty big risk of getting caught.
pishpash 8 hours ago|||
You forget things can be signed, with the key owned by the school. It can be done.
SlightlyLeftPad 7 hours ago||
Does signing really make this easily auditable from the professor’s perspective?
DaSHacka 7 hours ago||
Exactly this, when was the last time a HN user had to interact with the prototypical 60-year-old set-in-their-ways professor?

Extremely non-tech savvy, hates computers, and is gonna grumble "What the hell is a PGP? Better not be another one of those phone code things." as you try to pitch this highly-technological solution to a largely niche problem domain.

jazzyjackson 5 hours ago|||
I mean a cloud based learning management system also seems to be a very technological solution to the very old problem of checks notes grading quizzes?
Forgeties79 7 hours ago|||
They don’t even need to not be tech savvy. This stuff just registers as “hassle” to most people so they do the bare minimum or search for ways to not deal with it at all. It’s easy to “tut tut” at them but ultimately we need to accept reality: privacy, security, these things take extra effort that isn’t strictly necessary for people to go about their daily lives even though the stakes can be super high. It’s not a problem until it is, so they aren’t really barriers that require people to do the work. It’s like convincing someone who just simply doesn’t want to go out and buy/install a lock on their door to go do it, except it’s not even a one-time thing. Their door works fine. They can come and go as they please. It’s not until something happens that they maybe change their tune (and even then!)

Hell just getting people to do secure passwords is a whole thing.

MarsIronPI 7 hours ago||||
Makes me glad I've always avoided doing my work on web platforms. When we used to have to make presentations in Google Slides I used to do them in Org-mode, then export to Sheets. I still have all those assignments sitting on my disk. Sure, there's versions of them on Google Drive, but I always make sure that the canonical version is the one on my disk.
moralestapia 7 hours ago|||
>It’s so simple to send an e-mail to the student ...

What seems easy on hobby projects gets way more difficult at scale. Source: experience.

Hendrikto 1 hour ago||
For what they charge for these LMSs, they should definitely be able to sent some emails.
rupx 8 hours ago|||
I work in the Education sector as IT. We don't know much else either.

Everything we know has come from reddit threads / hackernews threads. There has been 0 official communication today indicating this was an attack, yet the login page was defaced by ShinyHunters.

setopt 3 hours ago|||
Just to add one more data point, we also use Canvas at my university. The deadline for submitting who are eligible (i.e. passed compulsory assignments and labs) to take the exam was yesterday, and I couldn’t meet that deadline because Canvas went down. I usually do corrections offline so I have backups of my own evaluations, but these are courses with many teachers and many TAs, so Canvas is the way we sync our assessments.
p-e-w 2 hours ago||
I guess what surprises me the most is that it’s even legal for schools to outsource the core of what they do to some random tech company.

Either way, they were under no obligation to adopt this garbage technology regardless of whether it’s available, so this is 110% on them.

matsemann 1 hour ago||
The alternative would be that each school develop their own platform for this, which also isn't very good use of their time and money?

Edit: No idea why this was down voted so much. I'm not defending Canvas, just wondering what the alternative would be.

master-lincoln 45 minutes ago|||
They do not need to develop it, but host an existing software on their infrastructure maybe...
Hendrikto 1 hour ago|||
The alternative is FOSS.
master-lincoln 45 minutes ago|||
Seems like instructure canvas is FOSS: https://github.com/instructure/canvas-lms/tree/master
philipwhiuk 5 minutes ago||||
If your line is GPL rather than AGPL there's Moodle.

But you do then have to have a sysadmin capable of managing an enterprise grade LAMP stack.

matsemann 28 minutes ago|||
Canvas already is AGPL, though?
copperx 6 hours ago|||
I don't understand what's the panic and doomerism about. Any competent IT team has backups and will be up and running as they go back to a state before the breach. This is HN. I'm disappointed that everyone is talking about losing grades and going back to pen and paper. I don't see how that could happen in 2026.

And from the hacker's message itself, it's clear they want money in exchange for not releasing private info, not for the data itself.

Do we live in a fear based culture? Why the panic? Even if everything was hosted on Instructure's infrastructure, it's all AWS. I'd be VERY surprised if there aren't multiple way to go back to a previous state.

Most of the work and delay is to make sure they figure out where the breach occurred.

simonreiff 1 hour ago|||
I'm sure you're right. Across tens (hundreds?) of thousands of institutions worldwide, each one is exercising its well-written incident runbook that not only gets updated regularly but also is rehearsed constantly, just in case something like this happens. After all, what university IT department DOESN'T prepare obsessively for the moment when they need to restore all grades on all assignments for all courses from backup and fall over to the backup system for final exam administration in any required format specified by any professor, in the second week of May, on a non-negotiable schedule? There's absolutely nothing to worry about here.
yread 3 hours ago||||
Schools don't have competent IT teams.

Here in the Netherlands a data center's power source (not even the machines) burnt down, data center is offline and University of Utrecht, one of the biggest universities here, is closed. Access passes don't work, work from home environment doesn't work, student information system is down, system for grading doesn't work. No failover for any of them (or maybe it was in the same DC?)

https://nos.nl/artikel/2613485-storingen-in-hele-land-door-b...

pjc50 1 hour ago||||
Sometimes it is very hard to recover from the offlining of essential systems: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy9pdld4y81o (Jaguar Land Rover, estimated cost in the billions)
belabartok39 11 minutes ago||||
I fully agree. What really pisses me off is that these "hacker" groups always spout off how they are doing it to screw the man but then threaten the average person. Millions of them. It just goes to show how uneducated, low-class, and simple these people really are.
mschuster91 3 hours ago|||
> Any competent IT team has backups

Backups can be sabotaged (turned off or schedules manipulated) or compromised (say, by lateral movement).

> Even if everything was hosted on Instructure's infrastructure, it's all AWS.

AWS Backup isn't foolproof. Get your hands on administrator credentials as an attacker and suddenly the only thing between everything being gone for good and unrecoverable even for AWS is remembering to have put a permanent deletion protection on all resources in AWS Backup.

apublicfrog 1 hour ago|||
All these articles listing the American schools affected, "nationwide" outage reported, meanwhile hundreds of millions in the rest of the world affected.

Does anyone have a list of affected schools?

isakmarr 1 hour ago||
I don't have a list, but I can tell you the University of Iceland is affected.
dumbfounder 8 hours ago|||
Maybe a hybrid approach. Scramble to create a final exam/project and give them the option to do pass/fail or a real grade, their choice.

And then wish for the death of saas and a day where you can deploy your own software you can control and modify as you need.

grey-area 27 minutes ago|||
Universities are not going to write their own software, and no they can’t use ‘agents’ to write and maintain it for them either.
Avicebron 7 hours ago||||
What is the strategic response then? Assuming I'm a student and my grades are gone, and I want to graduate, shouldn't I pick pass/fail?

Does a future employer look at pass/fail vs the grade? do they care? Are there even jobs that matter enough to care out there for them?

This seems like, solving the problem but without actually seeing the broader goal or trajectory education is supposed to follow.

hansvm 5 hours ago||
Most jobs I've had didn't care about a transcript in the slightest. It matters for future education and a small selection of jobs, and even them a few pass/fail courses won't cause any issues. It's not great if important, major-specific coursework is pass/fail, but usually you're not allowed to do that, so when it does come up you'll just have somebody ask what absurd situation (like this canvas thing) caused it.
flexagoon 3 hours ago|||
> day where you can deploy your own software you can control and modify as you need.

Canvas is mostly FOSS

https://github.com/instructure/canvas-lms

camillomiller 3 hours ago|||
To my European ears this just sounds like a disaster like this waiting to happen. God bless the annoying privacy OSS advocates and bureaucrats, I guess.
SoftTalker 8 hours ago|||
> they have airgapped backups and can be working as soon as they can spin up new servers

... and assuming they have a documented, tested, and trusted restore process.

yongjik 7 hours ago|||
Reminds me of the incident last year when a South Korean government's server room caught fire, which contained the government equivalent of Google Drive, and the only backup was in the same room, and they all burnt down together.

Some data was permanently lost, and then officers told reporters that multi-regional backup was not yet built because it was too hard at such a massive scale... of 858 TB.

selcuka 4 hours ago||
> it was too hard at such a massive scale... of 858 TB

There are probably many S3 buckets in existence that are bigger than that.

Not saying that they should've used S3, but it's definitely possible configure multi-regional backup (and a government can afford it).

walletdrainer 2 hours ago||
My home theater setup has more storage than that.
rayrey 8 hours ago|||
Ah yes the “recovery” part of the continuity plan. We tested that right? Right?
jonstewart 8 hours ago|||
Backups are definitely helpful in ransomwares, but before systems can be restored and brought back online, victim organizations still need to assess the scope of the breach, find the initial access vector, identify compromised accounts, and evict the threat actor. That can take time.
garciasn 8 hours ago||
I’m not certain, but it appears you’re giving Instructure a pass here, as if this is the first time they were hacked. But, it’s the second, by the same group.

As a parent of kids who are impacted by this, I’m not super concerned about the data being held for ransom, but I sure as fuck am concerned about how much it’s going to cost the district to move to another provider.

JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago|||
> I sure as fuck am concerned about how much it’s going to cost the district to move to another provider

Does Canvas have cybersecurity insurance?

MattSteelblade 7 hours ago|||
Not at all; standard IR procedure is scope -> containment -> eradication -> recovery. There is a fog right now; we don't know all the details. It seems to me that it's just as likely they weren't fully kicked out before or that the initial vulnerability wasn't remediated. You can't recover until the threat actor has been removed.
vasco 8 hours ago|||
> let classes that normally count for a grade just submit grades as pass-fail. Because what else can you do?

Schedule a single exam and that's your grade for that subject? That's how it should work anyway, credits for work during semester (or worse attendance) are not needed to evaluate if someone learned the material, give them an exam and done.

goobatrooba 5 hours ago|||
That's just bad outdated practice. It leads to cramming and less remembering than of the demand is for students to do work and show learning and effort throughout the year.
matsemann 1 hour ago|||
Most courses I've taken have obligatory assignments that are pass/fail, and you have to pass a certain amount during the semester to take the final exam. But the grade is determined entirely of the final exam.

Which to me seems the best way, you still have to learn throughout the year. Especially to avoid cheating this works nice. And as an aside, most people I know that did a year abroad in the US got 1-2 grades higher, as it was quite easy to just farm extra credits.

sayamqazi 3 hours ago|||
It has been my observation that most of the better students were the ones who would not put in work during the semester/year and cram at the end.
blahedo 7 hours ago||||
That's maybe something a school can do if exams are next week, or after.

At my school, tomorrow is the last day of exams. Most of the students have left campus. There's no time or mechanism to schedule an(other) exam.

scubadude 4 hours ago||||
Then you're testing how good someone is at exams as much as anything
pishpash 8 hours ago|||
Exams have performance variance. Otherwise you're only getting a pass/fall signal in any case.
vasco 7 hours ago||
Exams are the only fair way to evaluate if someone knows something (written or oral, in person). Take homes and attendance are just window dressing.
ElenaDaibunny 1 hour ago|||
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redsocksfan45 2 hours ago|||
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aaron695 6 hours ago||
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Gabriel54 8 hours ago||
I'm surprised how few comments there are on this thread. This is probably affecting millions of students at the most stressful time of the year.

Incidentally I've always hated Canvas and probably every other LMS provider, but what is particularly amusing about this current outage is that it is occurring at exactly the time when universities are demanding that all professors put all of their materials on Canvas, without exception, due to ADA compliance regulations. It is explicitly forbidden for professors to, e.g., refer to pdfs posted on a personal website.

Other commentators here seem not to understand that many faculty also do not enjoy being forced to use Canvas.

gchallen 8 hours ago||
They have not succeeded in forcing me, yet. But it's sad how many computing faculty apparently can't operate the basic online infrastructure needed to support their courses. Not that universities make it easy for us.

And of course the other serious concern I have with Canvas is that they are likely using all the materials faculty upload to train their AI replacements. Many of my colleagues engage in dark humor about this but I haven't noticed much action.

JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago|||
> they are likely using all the materials faculty upload to train their AI replacements

Instructure (Canvas's developer) partnered with OpenAI last year [1], about a year after KKR and Dragoneer (PE firms) acquired it [2].

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/rayravaglia/2025/07/23/instruct...

[2] https://www.pehub.com/kkr-and-dragoneer-complete-4-8bn-take-...

lucas_v 6 hours ago||||
instructure/canvas-lms is open-source -- is there anything preventing universities from hosting it themselves?
dotancohen 5 hours ago||
Money, skill, liability.

That calculus is about to shift.

FloorEgg 8 hours ago|||
I'm sure the engineers at instructure are not capable of building systems that can do that. You give them too much credit.
freedomben 1 hour ago|||
Former Instructure engineer here. Ive been gone almost 10 years at this point, but some of the best engineers I've ever worked with were at INST.

I'm not sure where your stereotype even comes from, because Canvas is not trivial software. You can see for yourself as it's AGPL and I assume you looked at the code before criticizing it because any good engineer would do that.

hackyhacky 36 minutes ago||
I've been using Canvas for years and it's some of the worst written software I've ever used. It's slow, buggy, with an atrocious 2001-era UI. It's a CRUD app that has no excuse for being so cumbersome. I'm not surprised at all that their security is just as bad as the rest of the product.

A bright undergrad could build a superior replacement in a few months, even without AI.

freedomben 7 minutes ago||
I won't disagree on usability. It has some sharp edges for sure. But

> A bright undergrad could build a superior replacement in a few months, even without AI.

Is quite naive. Canvas is not at all just a crud app. You can view the code yourself as it's AGPL

hunter2_ 6 hours ago|||
If they're at the level you say, they just might install some AI gizmo like the Vercel employee was accused of, but really let it run amok with write permissions.
onetimeusename 7 hours ago|||
Live streaming of class through Canvas is very popular. Quite a few people just watch from their dorms. So maybe people will have to come back to class, that will be entertaining. The class rooms are almost standing room only (sometimes they are) on the first day of class and then gradually thin out. Sometimes 10 or so people show up out of a class of 100. If Canvas is not back up soon I think it could actually be disruptive for that reason also.
ecshafer 7 hours ago||
This is awful to hear. The idea that students are just half assedly streaming the lectures is really just ruining things in the long run. This is a bit old manny, but showing up to lectures is good. You go to class, you get face time with professors, you can ask impromptu questions, you rub elbows with classmates, you talk on the walk between classes, you maybe run into a cute girl. Friction like walking to class and finding a nook in that annoying hour gap you have, are the things that make life enjoyable.
altairprime 8 hours ago|||
Not much overlap between students and HN these days, though? I’m an extremely rare outlier afaik :)

The administration has so far opened with one “Canvas said” and then an hour later one “Canvas is down indefinitely” email noting that they’re aware it’s serious.

(Canvas is a glorified wiki for teaching students, with quizzes and such, for those unaware.)

dang 8 hours ago||
> Not much overlap between students and HN these days, though?

That's my biggest fear.

byronsharman 3 hours ago|||
I'm an undergrad student in computer science and I come here regularly. Many of my friends do the same. Of course, that can't be extrapolated to students globally, but students who love what they do are not extinct!
gucci-on-fleek 6 hours ago||||
FWIW, I'm a student, so there are at least a few still here. Feel free to ask me any questions (either via email or via replies to this post) and I'll try to answer them.
strix_varius 7 hours ago||||
Is there any internal data on where students are going instead?
dang 6 hours ago|||
Not much, but I do ask the youngest founders what their friends read if they don't read HN, and the only consistent answer I hear is Twitter.

(and btw, they do say "twitter")

AuthAuth 6 hours ago||
Many of my sisters friends do everything entirely via tiktok. They look at what trends are popular and they target that fully on platform. This is for stuff like building niche targeted apps, selling beauty products/clothing brands, restaurants.
DaSHacka 7 hours ago||||
You honestly don't wanna know

If my peers are any indication, a whole lot of TikTok, Reels, Twitter, Discord, and other such mind-numbing platforms.

The types of platforms I would consider 'substantive' (or, at least, more substantive than those platforms) are definitely on the way out.

The few times friends have seen me browsing Hacker News or a certain Mongolian basket weaving form, the first thing they comment on is how confusing the interface is, and how old the site looks.

I truly don't understand the mentality, but if your site doesn't take three seconds to buffer a simple text drop down menu, and have JavaScript elements load in mid-scroll that bump elements around the page making you just barely miss that button you were trying to click, then your site is seen as 'inferior' or 'sketchy'.

Perhaps I've just had a bad sample, but I've experienced a variety of different environments by this point, and by and large, I've seen more people in my generation act in that manner than not.

dang 6 hours ago|||
This is actually reassuring. We don't need all your peers! We just need you and whatever smart cohort you're bonded with.

It's true that HN looks old - it looked old before you were born, probably - but (a) I have no idea how to change it, and (b) the whole of HN is a long bet on plain text. If the smartest young people lose interest in reading, I'm ok with HN dying for that reason. I just don't want it to die for any cheaper reason.

gsquaredxc 5 hours ago||
I would like to offer some additional reassurance: I send my friends articles I see on HN that might interest them. A (in my view) very good litmus test is when someone asks where I saw it, because this demonstrates some desire for continual learning. I find that anyone that asks that question seemingly trusts an interface like HN more because of it. My suspicion is that this is probably because at a certain point you see stuff like Agner Fog's work, LWN, or a number of other minimalist websites and realize that a website that is popular despite the lack of overindulgence in UI must be popular because of the content. It doesn't hurt that the best courses in my university experience have had websites that have not changed much since the late 1990s (one did change the lime green text on turquoise background on their page after the recession to a color scheme that didn't cause headaches in students).

I do find that my peers that now read HN used to be judicial about curating a Reddit feed and mostly otherwise limited on other sources. Short-form content is addictive and as nearly as unavoidable as sugar, but many of my brighter peers work on reducing that intake. Long-form YouTube is also something I find to be a marker of someone who is seeking knowledge. Many of my peers do scroll Twitter and TikTok all day, but I find that those who are easiest to chat with are those who have already scrolled HN today and want to discuss a particular article they know I would have seen. I've had conversations that start with "Did you see that TikTok?" and conversations that start with "Did you see that article on HN?" and the latter is always more engaging.

tailscaler2026 4 hours ago||||
Discord is just chat, I wouldn't call it mind-numbing, reminds me perfectly of IRC from a utility perspective.

That said, it's a commercial closed-source single point of failure.

Kiro 2 hours ago|||
How is Discord mind-numbing?
Ronsenshi 7 hours ago|||
Perhaps some interest-related Discord servers. Tragically, Discord is just another locked down silo without publicly accessible front on the web.
altairprime 7 hours ago|||
Drop me an email if you like — it’s not really topical to Canvas but I’m happy to discuss further.
apublicfrog 1 hour ago|||
Can you explain for the billions of the rest of us why this is the "most stressful time of the year" for the group you're referencing? I assume that's American students and/or teachers?
isakmarr 1 hour ago||
Final exam season, and it's ongoing in Iceland too, so not just American students.
dang 8 hours ago|||
(Comments were split across multiple threads and we've since merged them.)
Gabriel54 8 hours ago|||
Definitely not a criticism of your (hard) work here. Thank you!
dang 8 hours ago||
Thanks! I just added that bit to pre-empt confusion - context-switches like this are one of those rug-pulling moments (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48041875).
MarsIronPI 7 hours ago|||
We all appreciate the work you do! Thank you!
cocoto 2 hours ago|||
Replace your material content with lorem ipsum or garbage LLM content and upload it to Canvas to test the accessibility of your documents if required.
isityettime 8 hours ago|||
What? What makes Canvas accessible in a way that HTML and PDF files are not? It's true that PDF readers aren't the best for screenreaders, but surely you can just upload a .html copy as well.
Gabriel54 7 hours ago||
Canvas has an easy way of checking if a pdf or other course material is accessible, so many universities are forcing faculty to put all their materials on Canvas. That way if a pdf or powerpoint is not compliant it is immediately flagged. The goal is to reach a "100% accessible" metric.

Note that little of this really helps the students that it is supposed to help, because as you wisely point out, raw HTML is almost by definition extremely accessible. I work in a field that uses Latex and the source code of Latex should also be considered more accessible than the compiled pdf. But for university administrators the only important thing is that the accessibility metric that appears (or used to appear, before today!) on Canvas shows 100% accessible.

isityettime 6 hours ago||
That really sucks. I'm visually impaired and many members of my family are/were blind. I think accessibility is really important, but it's so painful to me to feel like people's limited energy is being directed towards performative measures, useless rituals, vanity metrics, etc.

Nobody has infinite energy, and disabled people don't have infinite social capital. It's a shame when energy from that shared pool gets spent on things that don't really impact meeting people's access needs.

And the other thing is that everyone's access needs are different. It can certainly be useful to try to set a baseline or propagate common guidance. But the most important thing, especially in a university setting, is for instructors to be flexible and responsive and for classes (and non-teaching workloads) to be structured in a way (e.g., small enough) that supports that.

I think metrics like "100% accessible" might even be dangerous. It makes it easy for able-bodied people who aren't in direct contact with disabled stakeholders to pat themselves on the back without actually knowing what's going on.

Bleh. Good luck doing right by your disabled students and disabled colleagues, and good luck resisting the bullshit.

Gabriel54 6 hours ago||
I was only a lowly TA so I saw these issues from afar, but I would add that, on a more optimistic note, I don't think I've ever met an instructor who wouldn't do whatever he or she had to do to support someone with special needs. As you suggested, metrics do not tell the whole story and certainly metrics for the sake of metrics are not helpful and may in fact be dangerous.

That said there is certainly a lot more work that needs to be done in this area. Hopefully these regulations over time bring out practical positive change. Time will tell.

Loughla 8 hours ago||
Are you saying that making sure your courses are fully accessible to your students by following disability regulations is a bad thing?
sellyme 7 hours ago|||
Putting aside the "So you hate waffles?" non-sequitur, surely the entire topic of this thread should be a bit of a hint that this misguided policy has not, in fact, "[made sure] courses are fully accessible".
Gabriel54 7 hours ago||
Well, to be fair, it has made every course hosted on Canvas equally accessible to everyone. ;)
yard2010 5 hours ago||||
Not GP, Incompetent policy makers are the bad thing.
Gabriel54 8 hours ago|||
Accessibility regulations, implemented with feedback from faculty and with the support of university resources, are certainly a good thing. But that is not what is happening in my experience.
myrandomcomment 10 hours ago||
1. It should be illegal for any company to pay ransomware attacks. Period. No pay out ever. 2. The penalty for being the attacker should be linked to the system they violated. If you do this to a hospital and someone dies you are life in prison / chair. The minimum sentence should be so painful that it deters the attack.

No this will not stop this and companies need to be held accountable for their lack of security investment. Every attack should be investigate if the company met an agreed industry standards best practices and staffing, etc. The penalties for not meeting the requirements should be punitive.

parliament32 10 hours ago||
> It should be illegal

It should be illegal to host insecure services, especially when you're dealing with PII. Breaches keep happening and nobody gives a fuck, because the worst that'll happen is you might lose a handful of customers and buy some "credit monitoring".

Incidents like this should be followed by an audit and charges being laid. Send corp officers to jail for negligent security failures. If you can go to jail for accounting fraud, you should be able to go to jail for cybersecurity-promises-fraud.

They claim to be compliant with a number of security standards [1]. I would love to see a postmortem audit of how much of this they actually implemented.

[1] https://www.instructure.com/en-au/trust-center/compliance

rcoveson 8 hours ago|||
I don't think that criminal negligence is the most helpful legal tool for incentivizing improved security. It's too hard to prove negligence.

Instead, there should be standard civil penalties for leaking various degrees of PII paid as restitution to the affected individual. Importantly, this must be applied REGARDLESS of "certification" or whether any security practices were "incorrect" or "insufficient". Even if there's a zero-day exploit and you did everything right, you pay. That's the cost of storing people's secrets.

This would make operating services whose whole "thing" is storing a bunch of information about individuals (like Canvas) much more expensive. Good! It's far to cheap to stockpile a ticking time bomb of private info and then walk away paying no damages just because you complied with some out-of-date list of rules or got the stamp of approval from a certification org that's incentivized to give out stamps of approval.

jedbrown 5 hours ago|||
And this strict liability will come with an expectation of insurance. The insurance policies will necessitate audits, which will actually improve security.
walletdrainer 2 hours ago||||
I feel like there’s a tendency here to seriously overestimate how damaging these leaks are to individuals.

For most individuals impacted by these hacks, appropriate restitution would be $0. Anything more than that would go beyond making them whole.

Kiro 1 hour ago||
It's not a popular opinion but I agree. I live in a country that has a very extensive principle of public records, and often times these leaks disclose much less than you would get by simply calling the authorities and ask. Now, whether that's good or bad is a different story.
paulddraper 8 minutes ago||
We use to hand out whole books of this information to as many people as possible. (phone books)
Avicebron 7 hours ago||||
The only right answer.
anonzzzies 7 hours ago|||
Let's do this.
phainopepla2 10 hours ago||||
How could you possibly make it illegal to host insecure services? Is any service 100% secure? And if it were how would we know?

I do agree with the audit and punishments for clear failure to adhere to established standards.

bawolff 9 hours ago|||
This is a solved problem in pretty much every other domain of life - if you are following best practises but something that wasn't reasonably forseeable happens, then you're fine, but if the bad thing happens as a result of negligence then you are in trouble.
jameshart 8 hours ago|||
Criminal law isn't about making things alright for the victim. That's what insurance is for.

Even if you leave your door unlocked, if someone walks in and steals your stuff, it's a crime. The state has an interest in prosecuting crimes even if the victim didn't do everything they could to prevent it.

JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago|||
> Criminal law isn't about making things alright for the victim

Restitution and retribution are the components of justice [1] entirely about "making things alright for the victim."

[1] https://www.unodc.org/e4j/en/crime-prevention-criminal-justi...

bawolff 7 hours ago|||
The company is not the victim here. Its users are. [I suppose my previous comment was a bit ambigious - i meant something bad happens to someone else not to yourself]

A better version of your analogy would be if your landlord failed to repair your front door in a reasonable period of time and as a result soneone walked in and stole your stuff. Yes the theif is the primary responsible party, but the landlords negligence in maintaining the property probably also exposes them to some liability.

P.s. This is neither here nor there, but restitution is a part of criminal law.

isityettime 8 hours ago||||
"Best practice" in cybersecurity is largely vendor-driven with little to no independent empirical validation.

That standard is likely to lock people into buying some pretty bad software, but it does little to ensure that they're running reasonably secure systems.

SoftTalker 8 hours ago||||
I like to relate it to operating an automobile. You can follow every traffic law and still be liable in an accident, because you owned the vehicle that caused the damage. This is why you have insurance.
MagicMoonlight 8 hours ago|||
In civil law maybe, but you aren’t allowed to blame a rape victim for choosing to walk down rape alley…
hsbauauvhabzb 10 hours ago|||
No building has a 100% chance of not caving in, yet somehow I think charges would be laid if a skyscraper caved in.
sieve 8 hours ago|||
The equivalent analogy is charging lock/door/drywall/timber makers and suppliers for lapses if a thief entered the house by picking a lock or drilling/sawing through the wall.
jameshart 8 hours ago|||
This analogy seems to be portraying 'ransomware hackers' as an unstoppable force of nature akin to gravity.

I'm not sure that's a fair analogy.

ryandrake 8 hours ago||
The other side of that spectrum portrays the service providers as pure, negligence-free victims. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
primitivesuave 9 hours ago||||
If Boeing claimed a plane was airworthy, but it crashed because basic engineering controls were skipped, we have collectively put our faith in the NTSB to preserve evidence, run an independent technical investigation, etc. There is no such authority for software - most security auditors (SOC2, HITRUST, etc) are just looking at self-reported data.

Just take a look at the recent Epic vs. Health Gorilla lawsuit to see how nonexistent the protection is around exchanging your medical records, one of the most sensitive types of PII.

willdr 8 hours ago||
Edit: I was incorrect / non-American, I was thinking of your FAA.
motoxpro 4 hours ago||||
People who haven’t been hacked just haven’t been looked at. If someone wants to hack you, they will hack you. It’s really unfortunate that people have this level of confidence in their ability.

Here’s an example. https://hacks.mozilla.org/2026/05/behind-the-scenes-hardenin...

a34729t 9 hours ago||||
Has a corporate officer ever gone to jail or been meaningfully fined for a data breach?
JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago|||
> Incidents like this should be followed by an audit and charges being laid

What? Why? Who died? This whole thing is perfectly dealt with through civil process.

mikeweiss 10 hours ago|||
Shouldn’t we be focusing on making it harder to pay overseas criminals in the first place? /ahem/ crypto platforms facilitating transfers to bad actors /ahem/
protocolture 4 hours ago|||
Criminals should focus on proven methods, like Steam Gift cards.
ttul 7 hours ago||||
But, then, how would Trump’s family and cronies get paid?
Bud 8 hours ago|||
[dead]
thinkingemote 1 hour ago|||
One of those eye opening moments for me was learning about how these criminals work on trust. They need to be trusted to not release the data or to unencrypt when paid, and by and large they do.

One way to weaken any group that works on trust would be to make them less trustworthy. That way victims wouldn't be as confident paying the criminals and thereby making the effort by the criminals less attractive.

pants2 10 hours ago|||
When will countries start treating cyberattacks as an act of war? If the North Korean military came to America and robbed fort Knox of $200M in gold there would be retribution. But hack an American company for the same amount and the feds do nothing.
prodigycorp 10 hours ago|||
Ok, so we treat it as an act of war. Now what? Attack North Korea? Great, the entire city of Seoul gets shelled within five minutes of your attack and hundreds of thousands of innocent people die.

It's very easy to play with lives that aren't yours.

kqp 1 hour ago|||
Never retaliating is a great way to get people to attack you. Of course escalating to all-out war provokes the same in response, but there does need to be a proportionate response, because it needs to be stupid to hurt us, not good business. t’s a significant failure of the US government when half the world freely loots US citizens and businesses.
sayamqazi 3 hours ago||||
You would be surprised how many people naively think "Why doesn't my country just open a war on X country and this Y problem will be solved forever" in their head they think war is just a flurry of bombardments and the other side (not theirs) is just destroyed to rubble and their country will have only minimal losses
flexagoon 2 hours ago||
Many country leaders also clearly think the same
toraway 8 hours ago|||
Exactly. This is the "Declare fentanyl a WMD" of solutions to ransomware. Sounds kinda badass as long as you don't spend too long thinking about it but has no practical relevance to actual enforcement challenges.

It's a familiar example of the perennial "[THING] could be solved overnight if [PERSON_OR_GROUP] would just start taking [THING] seriously" trope.

a2128 9 hours ago||||
How do you know which country to blame? It is standard practice for foreign actors (or just hackers in general) to use proxies around the world to misdirect and insert false clues as to their origin. It could be an American teenager proxying through North Korea, and it could be a North Korean proxying through another American teenager's residential connection, there's no way to know.
bigyabai 9 hours ago||||
They already do. This is what asymmetric warfare looks like, your weakest links will break in a time of crisis. Focusing on retribution for the Dunder Mifflin cyberattack is pointless, the adversarial motivation is purely to disrupt and extort.

The best response to a cyberattack on critical systems is to take security seriously. Document the offense, avoid the same mistakes and invest in penetration testing. Of course, nobody is incentivized to do that until they're attacked, so the cycle perpetuates itself.

chrisjj 2 hours ago|||
> When will countries start treating cyberattacks as an act of war?

When appropriate. I.e. never.

0123456789ABCDE 34 minutes ago|||
i disagree wholeheartedly with this.

a loved one, gun to the head: "please pay the ransom, i don't want to die!"

what's your play now? save loved one, and go to prison? or worse, bank blocks transfer, and they die?

go ahead and tax ransom payments (0 tax if human life at risk, 10x otherwise) if you have to, but making it illegal feels disconnected from the messiness of the real world. then, go after the attackers.

bombcar 10 hours ago|||
Your "minimum sentence so painful" will certainly dissuade foreign nationals, even foreign governments.
Kostchei 9 hours ago|||
interestingly, having actually done the law enforcement side of these investigations, 50% of them are local. And I understand that this is not 100% solution, but neither is any form of law enforcement, but that doesn't mean we should fail to attempt it.

Kids from the local uni having a lark, stalkers, vindictive ex employees, local gangs, criminals who understand their victims because they hail from the same community. These are your local hackers. Sift them from the nation states and international crime groups, then deal with the International as a matter of diplomacy. Because we do this so poorly locally, we have little ammunition to when it comes to diplomacy. "reduce attacks by your crime groups and we buy your natural gas, seel you wheat etc"

Want more motivation?- 75% of the local attacks by volume send funds back to terrorist or separatist organizations.

It is not an in-soluble problem. Sentences are a fraction of the answer, effective and receptive reporting processes are more important, then government backing for investigation and enforcement, then policy around home-team activities (ie don't do the bad things yourselves Mr Gov). Deterrence comes after all that.

Aurornis 9 hours ago|||
One tech ransom case I know of was an inside job. It definitely happens.

There are already significant penalties for doing anything like this. The guy involved is in prison for a very long time. I don’t recall the exact number of years but I do remember it was so long that he wasn’t going to see his kids grow up.

I don’t think anyone who puts a little thought into a crime like this doesn’t understand that the penalties are already very huge. You don’t get a slap on the wrist for extorting a company (or person, for that matter)

hluska 9 hours ago|||
50% of ransomware attacks are local to where? You’ll need to cite some sources because I don’t believe that is possible.
nullsanity 9 hours ago||
To the country or an ally of the country they are targeting, duh. it doesn't matter if you believe it, it's been the truth for over a decade. Heck, Sh1nyHunt3rs people were arrested in the UK recently.
da_chicken 9 hours ago||||
Yeah, they identified themselves as ShinyHunters, and the IP they've put on the demonstration page is geocoded to Russia. Notice this is the same group responsible for the Infinite Campus hack last year.

Really, though, if you want someone to blame, Instructure is not a particularly compelling target. Let's review:

1. Iran is intentionally targeting infrastructure due to a war started by the current administration.

2. China is actively seeking corporate secrets to steal and commercialize for themselves, spurred by extreme protectionism and retaliatory tariffs.

3. North Korea is doing anything they can -- including just taking a remote job by proxy -- in order to extract any money.

4. And Russia is working with and aiding all of them, after everything else going on has forced the embargo to break.

5. All of this while completely alienating every single one of the United States' allies.

6. Meanwhile, the American DHS is currently shut down.

7. And this is after Trump cut funding and personnel for CISA severely enough they've had to end the contract with MS-ISAC, meaning all state and local entities can only remain in the organization if they foot the bill for it directly and CISA and other agencies responsible for cybersecurity are more thinly staffed than they have been in decades.

In short, the current administration systematically disassembled all the protections we have built over the last 100 years, and then placed infrastructure -- schools, in this case, but also power companies, water treatment facilities, communications companies, local governments, hospitals, food producers -- directly on the front lines of the modern geopolitical conflict.

That vast ocean that has kept us safe historically is a poor moat in the modern era.

vasco 8 hours ago||
Having an IP in Russia means about zero regarding their location. Literally anyone doing anything like this is going to get a Chinese or a Russian IP for obvious reasons. Mostly decoy and people like you.
elictronic 9 hours ago|||
Complete internet blockage of nations allowing the attacks. If foreign governments are you can always execute them. We are living in a different world where this is no longer a zero probability occurrence.
Bud 8 hours ago||
[dead]
charlie90 9 hours ago|||
If someone robs a bank and someone inside dies of a heart attack, thats felony murder. I would be happy if the same applied to ransom attacks or other blackmail/leaking of info. If someone commits suicide because of it, its murder.
scratchyone 7 hours ago||
felony murder is pretty widely regarded as a leading factor in incredibly unjust prosecutions and sentencing decisions. perhaps not the best concept to build your ideas on top of.
gruez 8 hours ago|||
> If you do this to a hospital and someone dies you are life in prison / chair.

If you're going to get the chair you might as well murder some witnesses or destroy some systems to hide the fact you got hacked. "Hack? What hack? Our servers all burned down in an arson attack".

Avicebron 10 hours ago|||
We could also throw the CEOs of companies who don't properly secure their infrastructure and pay their security engineers enough in jail. A little justice on both ends.
scheme271 10 hours ago||
Uh, who determines that the infrastructure wasn't properly secured? Who is willing to risk prison because some intern accidentally committed an API key or made a dumb mistake. Conversely, what's the chances that no one actually gets prosecuted regardless of how sloppy their security practices are?
applfanboysbgon 10 hours ago|||
> who determines that the infrastructure wasn't properly secured

An investigative body, the same kind that determines the who, the why, and the how when an airliner crashes or a bridge collapses. Obviously a lot of work needs to be done to get from point A to point B, and it won't happen overnight, but software development is currently a deeply unserious profession and at some point a genuine software engineering practice needs to be developed.

I am, perhaps naively, slightly hopeful that the LLM bullshit plaguing our industry will be the gust of wind needed for the house of cards to collapse and governments to realise that allowing the entire world to be vibe coded is not sustainable.

dghlsakjg 9 hours ago|||
Pretty famously, aviation incident investigations are almost always not done with prosecutorial intent, and more about truth finding. It leads to people involved being cooperative to prevent future problems instead of ass covering to prevent jail.

Aviation’s safety record is not coincidental.

allthetime 8 hours ago||
In a darker reading; strong aviation safety is mostly motivated by not killing customers. An airline or plane maker who kills more customers than others will rapidly bleed those same customers and lose them to less lethal competitors. If no one cared about dying people I imagine aviation safety wouldn’t be so impressive.

As someone else here said, software, for the most part, is a deeply unserious industry. The stakes are so comparatively low and the consequences less obvious that it’s a lot easier for companies like intuit to maintain their supremacy simply by being entrenched, having strong sales teams, and the hearts & minds of non-technical managers.

In recent times it seems Boeing has been flirting with enshitification and half-assery but critics are not quiet and not falling on deaf ears

dghlsakjg 7 hours ago||
Sure, fatal stuff is bad for the bottom line, but that is a vanishing minority of what gets investigated.

You may not be aware, but there are thousands of non fatal incidents reported per year that just don't make the news.

There is a strong culture of self reporting instilled right from basic flight training, even when there is no damage or injuries, and even when the incident would have never been noticed by the authorities. You are almost guaranteed not to face consequences if you are open and honest about an incident. The FAA openly says that they would much rather educate than punish, and they tend to do that with pilots who own their mistakes. As long as there is no intent behind the fuckup, pilots are unlikely to lose their job, let alone their license.

JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago|||
> An investigative body

This just in: Anthropic, Harvard and Jimmy Kimmel have been investigated and found guilty of not securing their infrastructure.

sayamqazi 3 hours ago||||
When a great product is built it was the leadership and when a mistake was made it was always the employee that did it. Cool!
Avicebron 9 hours ago||||
Ideally the chances are high to certain they get prosecuted for sloppy security practices. It's part of the gig of being a CEO, if you imagine you are such a visionary/ideas guy/leader/whatever, risk taker (always a risk taker) then you can gamble spending 20 to life because you weren't actually as good as you thought.
chrisjj 2 hours ago|||
> Uh, who determines that the infrastructure wasn't properly secured?

ShinyHackers, obviously.

ivanjermakov 1 hour ago|||
The only way to prevent terrorism is to never meet terrorists' demands.
Ekaros 5 hours ago|||
Failure to protect computer system from forseen failure should result passing corporate veil and resulting all stock holders and managers/leadership of funds to be jailed for same period as perpetrator. It is only way to ensure that these things are taken seriously and enough pressure is put on leadership of companies.
dev360 8 hours ago|||
> No this will not stop this and companies need to be held accountable for their lack of security investment.

I think in principle, its sound. Im also just baffled hearing anecdotes from friends that are in big corp world and hearing the type of incidents they have, and how they respond to it.. It makes me wonder if there is enough capable talent to go around for the "boring corp" crowd.

Hint: I don't think there is nearly enough talent to go round, but for these companies, its either that they think they have solid experts (and didn't), OR its not a real priority until you get hit.

bux93 2 hours ago|||
Or maybe it should be mandatory for all companies to pay ransomware attackers. Think of it as an involuntary bounty program. Now they get to just say 'sorry (for your hurt feelings)' and suffer no consequences.

Apart from the 4% of the total worldwide annual turnover fine that theoretically could be levied under GDPR, but has never been imposed in full.

chrisjj 1 hour ago|||
> It should be illegal for any company to pay ransomware attacks. Period.

That makes as much sense as illegal to give your wallet to a mugger.

I.e. no sense.

protocolture 8 hours ago||
1. It should be illegal to run insecure services. Massive Fines.

2. The payout to the hackers should form part, but not all of the penalties. Pay those guys for their great service to humanity they earned it.

kelnos 9 hours ago||
A friend who teaches at MIT said they were hit by this. I found it ironic and a little sad that a place like MIT doesn't have an IT staff that can maintain their own on-prem solutions for things like this.

But it turns out that MIT used to have their own homegrown system, and recently switched to Canvas. Bet they're regretting that now.

The build vs. buy decision seems to have swung very hard toward buy in the last decade, and I think that's a shame. Yes, orgs need to focus on their core competency, and sometimes that means outsourcing things that aren't core competencies to third parties. But there are always downsides.

royal__ 7 hours ago||
Homegrown systems are expensive to maintain and usually still fail to match up to the commercial options available at this point. LMS's are also just really complicated pieces of software. I worked on my university's own version as an undergrad.
walrus01 2 hours ago|||
There is no need to reinvent any wheels by making a homegrown LMS. Moodle exists and is completely open source. Lots of large institutions use it. Even in the case that you need to do something really weird with it that isn't solved by one of the many plugins that exist, you're already 90% of the way there with its base platform, and only 10% remaining for DIY software development.
jazzyjackson 5 hours ago||||
> LMS's are also just really complicated pieces of software

it's MIT.

_diyar 4 hours ago|||
But it’s not like MIT gains anything from rolling their own LMS.
jcgl 2 hours ago||
You don’t need to roll your own LMS—you can self-host Canvas: https://github.com/instructure/canvas-lms/wiki/Production-St...
Xeronate 2 hours ago||||
Maintaining an LMS doesn't seem like a good use of time. You should almost always outsource pieces that aren't your core business.
dnnddidiej 2 hours ago|||
Computer science != software engineering.
Jaxan 36 minutes ago||||
I think the current situation shows that outsourcing is also expensive. The costs are just different or not always clear up front.
deathanatos 6 hours ago|||
… so?

My highschool, for a while, had a website, which was eventually replaces by a large corporate CMS. Was the website as complicated or complex as the CMS? No, you would have needed to know HTML to publish to it. The CMS was no doubt "more user friendly", I suppose.

But … the original site had a soul. It was unique to the school. There was a student directory! All lost, because the CMS meant utter standardization between all the schools using it (their pages were all identical, except for each got like a different picture of the school as the banner at the top) and the CMS did not do directory anything.

Of course, the directory largely didn't matter in the end. (This was when you needed people's landlines! Quite laughable nowadays…) But it was still sad to see it lost, and several of us students worked on it, which provided us with some early real-world experience.

A large number of my college professors published their own sites, too, where they'd put their lecture notes, homework, etc. I loved those far more than I loved "Canvas" or whatever the ugly LMS we used was.

samiwami 5 hours ago|||
MIT has an incredible IT staff and they do some cool stuff. Every time I interact with any other organizations IT stuff I find it inferior. They just aren’t super big from what I gathered and probably don’t want to do the incredibly boring work of an LMS.

The one they had before Canvas was very very inadequate.

edit: also some of the more popular cs classes have custom websites and don’t really use canvas, but that isn’t the centralized IT department’s doing.

mingus88 8 hours ago|||
I started my tech career in EDU. I’m not at all surprised.

IT staff who are ambitious and talented don’t last long in education. The pay is very low compared to industry. Where I worked, you could retire with a comfortable pension after a number of service years, so the IT staff outsourced as much as possible so they needed to take zero risks to their nest egg. Blame all the problems on the consultants and do as little as possible.

It’s literally where dreams go to die.

MIT is known for the brilliant professors and students but at the end of the day, running a university is pretty standard stuff. They don’t need a genius rockstar to admin the courseware servers.

jesse_dot_id 5 hours ago||
CYA is a powerful drug for the C Suite
BooneJS 9 hours ago||
My kids are in the middle of their finals week. What a mess. Universities know nothing, Canvas claims to be in a "scheduled maintenance", and one Prof claims to "not have any copies of material offline" which seems pretty negligent. Sounds like one section of a popular class will be doing paper exams while other sections had Canvas-based "half points for 2nd attempt"-type exams earlier today. How soon before names & grades appear in data dumps?

This would be like TurboTax "scheduling maintenance" on April 14th in the US.

corvad 9 hours ago||
The "Scheduled Maintenance" is just total B.S. and just honestly makes them look worse. Apparently according to their status pages this is what 99.996% uptime looks like. Pay attention lol.
HDBaseT 9 hours ago|||
It has been over 5 hours now and there has not been any communication about this being an attack, despite many of us seeing the ShinyHunters message on the login page.

There is a lot of people who likely are unaware the latest outage is because they were compromised again.

Them marking the incident as 'Under Maintenance' means the status page isn't reporting this as an outage and adding to downtime%.

corvad 9 hours ago|||
Once we hit 8h 45m SLA has been broken. https://uptime.is/99.9 https://www.instructure.com/trust-center/availability
anakaine 8 hours ago|||
Compromised again? This is a separate in ident to the one seen yesterday?
rupx 8 hours ago||
Correct.

The incident yesterday was technically from April 28th, with most communications coming out on the 2nd and 3rd, with it being "Resolved" yesterday.

This incident is the second attack, because they failed to secure their infra again. Everything being reported is a bit delayed, which makes it seem like this is a single attack, not technically two instances.

mrexroad 7 hours ago||||
I was going to make a joke that they should have just taken a page from the military and said “Rapid Unscheduled Maintenance”, but I guess that’s actually the phrase for it.
anigbrowl 8 hours ago|||
Once again, an example of why corporations should not have free speech. Corporate statements that are transparent lies should be criminally actionable.
alpineman 2 hours ago||
Crazy that kids data are getting leaked before they even had a chance to properly understand the consequences and consent to it being used
eiiot 8 hours ago||
I'm a student at Stanford — this is hitting the whole school hard. Unlike a lot of schools on the east coast that are affected (Brown, Harvard, MIT) we are on the quarter system so we're just ending Midterms right now. We're also lucky enough to have our CS department entirely independent from Canvas, but most of my humanities classes are not so lucky. One art history class is having us submit our midterm papers by uploading to a google drive folder—another is pausing weekly quizzes. The main thing this has revealed is just how dependent students and teachers are on Canvas... I hope that this re-prompts discussions about moving off of a platform that was already (from a student perspective) not very good.
zuzululu 6 hours ago||
I really feel like SH fucked up by sinking this low hitting students and Americas young minds like this....

One thing to target coroporations but leave the students alone....

JCharante 6 hours ago||
It's not so bad, I'd say the Christmas PS3 hack was worse
zuzululu 5 hours ago||
You don't care that students are impacted but your ps3 not being playable for a short period was more important.

Heard you loud and clear sheesh

noitpmeder 5 hours ago||
And what's your opinion on the em dash?
corvad 9 hours ago||
Canvas is handling this terrible. No communication, no status updates, etc. Also looks pretty bad their whole platform was compromised and not a single real report for the breach that already had happened. Wonder how long it will take for SLA violations and lawsuits to manifest, especially with most U.S. schooling having finals right now.
user3939382 9 hours ago|
Lot of experience dealing with Canvas/Instructure. Tech is o-k. Culture seems to be full of themselves due to market position.
corvad 9 hours ago||
Yeah like their page says "Scheduled Maintenance" which is total B.S. Talking to people at my university's IT side of things Canvas has said nothing to any clients.
javawizard 7 hours ago||
The "scheduled maintenance" thing is likely just because that's the easiest maintenance page to throw up site wide, or at least it was back when I was on the Canvas deploy rotation back at Instructure ~10 years ago.

That doesn't excuse any of their other messaging though.

SoftTalker 12 hours ago||
So many universities used to run homegrown or on-prem student systems. This is the downside of consolidating in the cloud. If the infrastructure is compromised, it affects everyone, not just isolated or single installations. I wonder how they are feeling about that decision now? I guess they can say "not our fault" so they might be feeling better than if it was a vulnerability in their own system.
crazygringo 11 hours ago||
If an exploit is found in the software, hackers will often be able to attack hundreds of separate institutional installations in an automated way just as easily. And depending on the exploit, potentially more easily if on-prem admins fail to take all recommended security steps.

I'm actually much more interested if there is any financial liability for Instructure here? It's interesting that it's the universities being ransomed, while the technical failure was Instructure's. We're used to uptime SLA's -- what about security breach SLA's?

harikb 11 hours ago|||
> It's interesting that it's the universities being ransomed, while the technical failure was Instructure's.

My guess would be they get likelihood of getting paid when blackmailing 9,000 schools (at least a few would pay up) than blackmailing Canvas/Instructure.

I don't think any SLA/terms would change who gets to feel the pain.

poopmonster 11 hours ago|||
My guess is that they believe by maximizing their attack coverage, the odds are greatest that some of the institutions will pay up. And otherwise, they can still make a bit of money by selling the data.

Don't ransom all your eggs in one basket

dylan604 10 hours ago|||
Yeah, if they had spent the time and money to roll their own that got hacked, they'd be responsible. Now, they can just clap their hands and show them palms up to you like a black jack dealer and walk away from the table with no responsibility. Probably one of the biggest benefits of using a product instead of building your own.
zephyreon 6 hours ago|||
You’d think this is how it works but universities and schools will still end up holding the bag at the end of the day, irrespective of who is responsible.
kelnos 9 hours ago|||
It's annoying that this is how internal politics usually works. Decision-makers at an org should be considered just as responsible when a third-party choice goes bad as when an internal tool goes bad.
walrus01 2 hours ago|||
Running on prem or homegrown systems used to be considered a core competency of having a computer science department and a campus-wide IT/networking staff at a university. In the environment that exists today in academia, for instance, BSD would never be created because somebody could just pay a third party external vendor for some packaged product. What happened in the past 20 years to change that? I really wonder.
frollogaston 10 hours ago|||
It's still more secure this way, especially with AI hacking making it harder to rely on obscurity.

Also yeah there is value in being able to blame another party, and also being down when everyone else is down.

motorpixel 6 hours ago||
Is there a good self-hostable FOSS version of Canvas/Blackboard?
ktkaufman 5 hours ago||
Canvas is open-source and can be self-hosted.
thecatapps 11 hours ago||
I remember when I was in high school (2016? 2017?), I found a super simple XSS in the assignment submission form and told the programming teacher. Canvas then proceeded to lock my account and got me my first (only?) detention. Good times.
somebudyelse 8 hours ago||
Somewhat similar vein, the school's blocking software would block YouTube and embeds unless they came from Canvas. They were smart enough to disable the HTML editor for posting discussion comments, but forgot that since it was a rich text editor, you could just copy-paste in an embed by putting the code in data:text/html, then copying the element as formatted html.

I also ran the entire DOMPurify sample XSS and managed to find one way to download custom content onto someone's computer.

frollogaston 10 hours ago||
Uh, did you tell the teacher by exploiting the vuln?
rahidz 11 hours ago|
Goddammit. Anyone in the know, know if Parchment was also impacted by this potentially? They were acquired by Instructure a few years ago, and deal with a LOT of transcripts.

Edit: https://status.parchment.com/ says "While Canvas, Canvas Beta and Canvas test are currently unavailable, we are simultaneously monitoring all of our other product environments, including Parchment. We continue to see no reason to believe any Parchment resources have been impacted."

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