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Posted by bane 2 days ago

Getting arrested in Japan(sundaicity.com)
254 points | 309 commentspage 4
zuzululu 2 days ago|
[flagged]
dang 2 days ago||
I agree that that comment was bad and I've asked the commenter not to post like that. But can you please also not take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

samrus 2 days ago||
Its all good until you get arrested for something you didnt do. Then you'll see
zuzululu 1 day ago||
are you speaking from experience ?
eowln 2 days ago||
[flagged]
RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 2 days ago||
> [G]etting into a heated argument in public, accidentally taking an item you didn’t pay for, overstaying a visa, or even grabbing someone else’s umbrella or bike thinking it was yours [...]

While it doesn't detract from the article's main point, that Japanese prison conditions are poor, but arson, murder, and jaywalking much? Overstaying your visa is a lot more egregious than the other infractions.

> Damn, I want to move to Japan now.

I know this is sarcasm, but going to Japan as a tourist and _living_ in Japan as a resident -- or the same of any country, for that matter -- are very different experiences. Some, but surprisingly little, of your experience from the former carries over to the latter.

metacritic12 2 days ago|||
"Accidentally taking someone's bike thinking it was your"

How often does this actually happen in reality versus it being trotted out as a backstory after being caught?

sidewndr46 2 days ago|||
If you've owned an older Ford truck, there was a time period when the keys on the doors were a separate key. The door key never had that much variety, it was pretty common in a large parking lot to be able to get in the wrong truck. You just couldn't start it. The only reason why it isn't so common anymore is most people aren't driving 1980s era Ford trucks in North America.

I personally spent about 10 minutes trying to enter a car one time thinking my key was broken. At that point I realized I don't own fuzzy dice and was indeed just at a different car with the exact same exterior

Scoundreller 2 days ago||||
if most bikes look the same, yeah, a lot (dunno if the case in JP)
zuzululu 2 days ago|||
You get Vancouver
wetpaws 2 days ago|||
[dead]
xyzelement 2 days ago|||
[flagged]
niek_pas 2 days ago|||
And I’m sure the boundary on what constitutes ‘badness’ is something everyone can agree on!
ToValueFunfetti 2 days ago||||
I guess putting innocent people in miserable conditions for extended periods doesn't count as tolerating badness, technically.
nephihaha 2 days ago||||
They do tolerate badness though. Japan is great on some scores, but it has rampant political corruption, the Yakuza and sexual assault of women is common and mostly goes unreported.
actionfromafar 2 days ago||||
Rape isn’t badness apparently

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-journa...

c-c-c-c-c 2 days ago||||
There’s loads of drugs in tokyo and ample opportunities to get robbed or beaten up every day of the week and the police doesn’t give one crap as long as they only target foreigners.

Fucked up country I wish for the people to be free one day from their current fascist leaders.

nephihaha 2 days ago|||
I have visited Tokyo and never once felt unsafe. I cannot say the same for cities of similar size in the west. Never experienced aggressive youths on the street or drug addicts, which are things I have to navigate here.
yieldcrv 2 days ago|||
playground for westerners
ktallett 2 days ago|||
Do you mean it's not tolerated as long as you ignore the following?

-The rampant sexual assaults -Child pornography still be prevelant -Tens of Millions overworked -Millions paid a wage that can't provide anything other than a slave life -The latter two leading to extreme levels of suicide -The fact the society as a whole isolates difference whether it be disability, or personality -OAPs needing to commit crime to live or committing crime to go to prison -There not being enough social care -The rampant racism against anyone else

Need I go on? If you think the above is wonderful something is seriously wrong. Japan has as many flaws as any where else and is the reason for many of them themselves.

infotainment 2 days ago||
100% this -- westerners love to criticize Japan's justice system, while ignoring the fact that much of it actually works.

Drugs? Petty crime? Homelessness? No other country comes close to managing these problems as well as Japan does, and Japan somehow manages to do this without descending into a 1984-esque surveillance state. Wander the streets of Tokyo at night and you will see zero drug-addicted homeless people. How many western cities could one say that about?

EMIRELADERO 2 days ago|||
The virtues you mention are not a consequence of the tortuous treatment described in the post though. Conditions could rise to Western humane standards and the underlying Japanese culture that allows for such peaceful living would still remain.
hackyhacky 1 day ago|||
You can't take the Japanese criminal justice system out of Japan. It's part of a larger whole.

The Western mentality, especially in the USA, focuses on independent will. The government is not supposed to stop people from making choices that are bad for society or bad for themselves. In Japan, the mentality is that every person has an obligation to work with society and to fit in at all costs. The Japanese criminal justice system exemplifies that spirit, but it touches all areas, such as employment, personal relationships, behavior in public, talking to strangers, etc.

In short, if you want to have the advantages of Japan, you need to take it with the disadvantages as well.

EMIRELADERO 1 day ago||
Could you tell me how actual torture helps that system, and why exactly you can't take it away without disrupting the harmony?

It is definitely possible to hold people in detention without torturing them while also getting acceptable results.

cjbgkagh 2 days ago|||
I don’t know what is humane about skid row et al.
EMIRELADERO 2 days ago||
Direct torture is certainly less humane than abandonment.
cjbgkagh 2 days ago||
Skid row isn’t abandonment, CA spends $47K per homeless person per year in direct and indirect assistance. It exists as it does due to intentional and well funded policy.
EMIRELADERO 2 days ago||
Even granting that (which... no. How is it true? Any evidence?) it's still less inhumane than what Japan is doing here. The conditions amount to torture.

The fact that many people opt to falsely plead guilty and get a reduced punishment in a society that highly values honor and saving face should say a lot about it.

cjbgkagh 1 day ago||
Californian spend on homelessness is public info, you’re free to search it yourself.

There is something about seeing drug addicted zombies impossibly contorted in on themselves and swaying in the wind that appears very inhuman to me. If given the choice, pre zombification, of a false confession or life as a zombie I know which I would chose.

EMIRELADERO 1 day ago||
That's a false binary. European nations manage without either of them for example.
cjbgkagh 1 day ago||
I think it is that the US is merely ahead of Europe and Europe will catch up to the US in this regard. Just give it 20 to 30 years.
EMIRELADERO 1 day ago||
Why do you believe mantaining an acceptable level of peacefulness requires torture?
cjbgkagh 1 day ago||
I don’t accept your premise that the Japanese system is torture.
EMIRELADERO 1 day ago||
Extreme control of movement and sleep including deprivation of it for arbitrary amounts, constant lighting, no outside time, nothing to do for months at a time, lack of nutritious food, all those things in combination constitue torture under most modern definitions.
nephihaha 2 days ago||||
Japan is changing rapidly. However it is famous for its organised crime. Japan does have a Yakuza problem and political corruption.
jpablo 2 days ago|||
Darn. I don't know if I have been living in the wrong places but I never see drug-addicted homeless people in my western country at night.
cjbgkagh 2 days ago||
It seems to be more of a US phenomenon and it is pretty pervasive in the US.
applfanboysbgon 2 days ago||
[flagged]
dang 2 days ago||
Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar hell. It doesn't help.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

applfanboysbgon 2 days ago||
[flagged]
dang 2 days ago||
You* are responsible for following the rules regardless of what others are doing.

A bad article (if that's what it is—I haven't looked yet) doesn't make it ok to break them, and a bad thread doesn't either.

(* I don't mean you personally of course, but all of us)

applfanboysbgon 2 days ago||
I understand that, but I would like to note from a human perspective that when seeing an article full of misleading and exaggerated claims bashing your country as a whole and comparing it disfavorably to the author's own, it's hard to react in a perfectly emotionless manner. All the more so when the thread is full of comments piling on even more, taking it all as fact and condemning it as a 'fascist dictatorship'. This is not exactly material fit for intellectual-curiosity-stimulating discussion to begin with, and it would really be nice if this kind of awful content wasn't on HN in the first place.
dang 1 day ago||
Yes. That is super hard from a human perspective and I agree that it would be nice if the comments were less awful.

We're not asking you (or anyone) to react in an emotionless manner—quite the opposite. The trick is to express the emotions in a somewhat different way - more sharing, less discharging, if that makes sense.

As for the article - I only skimmed it in the most superficial way but I think "what it's like to be in prison in Japan (from a Westerner's point of view)" was more or less certain to be interesting to this community, which is insatiable for things it hasn't heard about before.

Btw - you absolutely don't have to answer this, but are you Japanese? That's what the phrase "bashing your country as a whole" seemed to imply to me, and for some reason I was surprised. I guess it's because I talk a lot with HN's Japanese users (mostly by email) and your mode of expression is somewhat different. Normally I don't pry like this, so feel free not to respond!

applfanboysbgon 1 day ago||
It is my adopted country. I am a naturalized citizen and consider it my real home. It is perhaps, because of my background as a Westerner who settled in Japan, that I have been exposed to a lot of criticism of Japan by Westerners and noticed a pattern I find distasteful. There are absolutely real issues to criticise, of course; Japan is no utopia. But I have unfortunately noticed a very strong trend to misrepresent the truth in order to garner engagement, often portraying things in a very sensationalized and dishonest manner. Honestly, I've noticed the same trend about China and Korea -- perhaps the perceived exoticness of the Far East, from a Western perspective, lends itself to believing outlandish claims more easily, making such claims especially effective at achieving traction.

For example, there's a very persistent claim about Chinese culture being so morally corrupt that Chinese people are known to intentionally kill pedestrians after hitting them with a car in order to avoid lawsuits[1]. In reality this was distorted from a sensationalized report of a single video of a car running over a pedestrian again, and then extrapolated as a fundamental truth about a culture of 1.4 billion people, cementing the perceived inferiority of Chinese culture to Western culture in the minds of readers. I could name literally dozens of cases of stories like these about CJK culture/governance that went viral in mainstream Western media.

I feel very strongly that this story fits into that genre. I do apologise for how strongly I reacted, but it's this kind of slander that really pushes my buttons and makes it hard for me to moderate my tone in the heat of the moment.

[1] "In China, drivers would rather kill you than injure you" -- Business Insider https://www.businessinsider.com/in-china-drivers-would-rathe...

hackyhacky 1 day ago|||
> Language barrier: Forced to communicate only in Japanese

To be clear, what the author said is that communicating in any language besides Japanese is prohibited with anyone. So if you share a cell with an inmate who speaks your native language, you're not allowed to speak with them in that language. I think that expected to be allowed to speak with inmates is not a sign of arrogance, and I don't know any other country that has a similar restriction.

Another issue is whether the author is allowed to communicate about her case in her native language. If she's asked to sign forms, make statements, or expected to understand her legal procedure, one would expect that the police would provide a translator to ensure that she's treated fairly. Certainly, that would be the norm in the West.

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 2 days ago|||
> The arrogance of American tourists is truly boundless. How dare Japanese people not speak English! Who do they think they are?

That's not the issue. At least in the US it is unconstitutional to bar inmates from speaking or communicating in non-English languages.

Likewise the US legal system is required to provide you an interpreter who can speak in a language you are proficient in.

Whether these rights are properly upheld in the US is another question but they are rights you are entitled to.

That's the main issue. These are rights that Americans are accustomed to and it's not always obvious to them when they leave the country that these rights aren't universal among developed countries.

thaumasiotes 2 days ago|||
[flagged]
dang 2 days ago||
Please don't respond by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

infotainment 2 days ago||
> The arrogance of American tourists is truly boundless. How dare Japanese people not speak English! Who do they think they are?

This attitude is so unbelievably prevalent among native English speakers. "Obviously everyone should speak *my* language -- why should I ever have to learn another one?"

perching_aix 2 days ago||
One would think "not being able to speak anything but Japanese" would be a problem for anyone not speaking Japanese, not just English speakers specifically, so this framing is more than a bit ironic, don't you think?

Seriously, what is so baffling about expecting an interpreter to be provided? Even if you do "speak" the language, this is not some everyday environment, and evidently not a good-faith one either. If I got into a similar situation in the US or similar, you can be sure as shit I'd ask for one too, even though I do believe I have a reasonable command over the English language in general.

applfanboysbgon 2 days ago||
An interpreter is in fact provided for important communications, but it's a given that there's not going to be interpreters on-hand for every foreign prisoner 24/7. I think most people would simply accept that a language barrier is a normal fact of life of being arrested in a foreign country. The expectation of not needing to speak a foreign language in a foreign country seems to be a uniquely English one, and it manifests in other ways. There are many people who come to Japan to teach English without understanding a word of Japanese, and then complain about the difficulty of life, how restaraunt staff won't speak English or provide an English menu for them, how this and that are not provided for in English. They don't attempt to learn Japanese even after teaching for 5+ years, and yet criticise Japan for not catering to their needs. The sense of entitlement gets nauseating after you've witnessed it enough.
perching_aix 2 days ago||
So the claim was misleading, and they do in fact provide the interpreters that are entitled to wish for?

I guess I see what you mean, but I feel there would have been a way to express this all better.

applfanboysbgon 2 days ago||
You are legally entitled to an interpreter when being questioned by police or while in court. I believe the claims in the article are exaggerated, I would speculate intentionally so as the author is an engagement-farming content creator who has made several videos about the subject garnering hundreds of thousands of views. Of course, it is possible their experience was worse than what they are legally entitled to -- the real world often doesn't live up to ideals and legal rights can be violated -- but they speak in broad generalizations about the system as a whole that are not representative.
momentmaker 1 day ago||
This sounds like a monk-styled meditation retreat where one just get fed and can just keep doing meditation all day alone.

Sounds a heaven for someone who is ready for it but hell for those whose thoughts run amok.

PieTime 1 day ago|
You getting one hour of sleep is meditating and no going outside?
AngryData 1 day ago|
This guy has a way rosier view of the US justice system than either I or anybody I know who has been arrested or sent to jail has.