Posted by ipnon 1 day ago
> mathematics only exists in a living community of mathematicians that spreads understanding and breaths life into ideas both old and new. The real satisfaction from mathematics is in learning from others and sharing with others. All of us have clear understanding of a few things and murky concepts of many more. There is no way to run out of ideas in need of clarification.
Yes! And this applies to all human culture, not just math. Everything people have figured out needs to be in living form to carried on. The more people the better. If math, or any product of human skill, is only recorded in papers or videos, that isn't the same as having millions of people understanding it in their own ways.
Modern culture often emphasizes innovation and fails to value mere maintenance, tradition, and upkeep. This can lead to people like the OP feeling that they have nothing to contribute, when actually, just learning math, being able to do it, being able to help others learn it - all of these are contributions.
We are all needed to keep civilization afloat, in ways we cannot anticipate. We all need to pursue some kind of excellence just to keep human culture alive.
It's education for whoever finds it educational
This is exactly what Numberphile does. Those who are hooked will find the resources on their own. They need a reason to look for them and Numberphile gives them one.
Plumbing, react, combinatorics, real analysis, python, c++, cad, micro and macro economics, reinforcement learning, to name just a few of the things I learned through YouTube.
We don’t give enough credit to what we take for granted today.
Young people are curious, sometimes all they need is a spark and to be introduced to a new topic in an engaging way. These forms of content deliver that spark.
It would appear that LLMs are invalidating this claim. Things can live in synthetic form and carry on just fine. Instead of cultivating a population of learned minds we are just feeding a few dozen egregores of models and training corpuses.
LLMs are quite good at simulating life and living intelligence (in the short term), but they aren't any of that. That's why we call it artificial intelligence. It's true that we can't put our finger on what exactly the difference is, but it's not like reality has ever felt encumbered by our limited understanding.
Thank you for highlighting that answer. It is one of my favourite pieces of writing about the culture of mathematics. I just want to add that that particular answer is now affectionately known as Thurston's Paean.
For example. Take a modern country with a modern economy. Flatten it. Destroy all the factories. Bankrupt all the companies. You can get back to a fully modern economy again quite quickly. WWII demonstrates it.
Taking an unindustrialized country through the development process... that's very tricky. It can't really be rushed.
For a long time, economic development was seen as mostly capital and technology. You need time to develop all the capital needed. Roads, factories, etc. But... development efforts underperformed. Then the idea of "human capital" got popular as a way of explaining the deficit. Education, mostly. Development efforts still underperformed.
I think the "living community" thing is the answer to this. It' ecology. You can't make a rainforest by just dumping all the necessary organisms into the right climate. It's the endlessly complicated relationships between all those organisms that make the rainforest.
This is one of the things that worries me about the pace of modern change. When writing and literacy resurged in classical antiquity... we totally lost all the ways of (for example) doing scholarship orally. Socrates (through Plato) wrote about some of the downsides to this.
...and we did completely lose oral scholarship. We have no idea how to do it. Once the living culture died... it stayed dead. All the knowledge contained within it went away.
I agree. A body of knowledge, mathematical knowledge being one of them, is a give-and-take between its producers and consumers; a market for ideas. It grows in that ecology of people with its pathfinders, specialists, generalists, historians, educators, etc. Committing to a body of knowledge is becoming part of its living culture.
Where I disagree: I believe some of the loss is inevitable. Keeping in mind the example of a body of knowledge above, as the scale of what's accumulated until now grows, the role each of us play in the sustenance of its culture shrink. This is a direct consequence of the modern developmental process (ie division of labour to the point where it feels like we are all modular parts of a much larger whole).
I can't say whether its better to focus on recovering what's lost, or, trust the process, as it were.
Theres a limited amount of time, space and energy so what's the ideal mechanism to say what to pay attention to or not
I look at some truly impressive projects like CLASP which sprang into existence not because of someone noodling around, but because they had a bigger goal which required the team build it.
So my advice to any mathematician who feels lost, like they don't know what to work on, would be to go collaborate with someone who has an actual goal, to look for inspiration in the kinds of math they need.
Today, there are a lot of opportunities to jump forward that only get capitalized on through coincidence (e.g. two people bump into each other at a conference, or researcher happens to have a colleague working on a related problem through the lens of a different discipline). If AI does nothing but guarantee that everyone will have such a coincidence by serving as that expert from a different discipline, that will still be a massive driving force for progress.
The question of "whats a mathematician to do" is still clear: you need to find and curate and clearly express interesting and valuable problems.
Far from being motivated by some applications, the most useful discoveries in mathematics are usually discovered "for their own sake" and their application is only discovered later. Sometimes centuries later!
This is not the fault of the mathematicians.
Like prime numbers? (used in cryptography)
On the contrary, complex numbers were introduced to make the cubic formula work.
There's yer problem right there. Good pedagogy is hard and highly undervalued. IMHO Grant Sanderson (a.k.a. 3blue1brown) is making some of the most significant contributions to math in all of human history by making very complex topics accessible to ordinary mortals. In so doing he addresses one of the most significant problems facing humankind: the growing gap between the technologically savvy and everyone else. That gap is the underlying cause of some very serious problems.
Hard to imagine now, but back when he started out, there were really no (to very few!) accessible math tutoring vids on the video platforms. Most of the times you had some universities, like MIT, putting out long-form vids from lectures - but actually having easily digestible 5 min vids like those Khan put out, just wasn't a thing.
I am not a mathematician, but out of personal interest, I have worked with professional mathematicians in the past to help refine notes that explain certain intermediate steps in textbooks (for example, Galois Theory, by Stewart, in a specific case). I was surprised to find that it was not just me who found the intermediate steps of certain proofs obscure. Even professional mathematicians who had studied the subject for much of their lives found them obscure. It took us two days of working together to untangle a complicated argument and present it in a way that satisfied three properties: (1) correctness, (2) completeness, and (3) accessibility to a reasonably motivated student.
And I don't mean that the books merely omit basic results from elementary topics like group theory or field theory, which students typically learn in their undergraduate courses. Even if we take all the elementary results from undergraduate courses for granted, the proofs presented in graduate-level textbooks are often nowhere near a complete explanation of why the arguments work. They are high-level outlines at best. I find this hugely problematic, especially because students often learn a topic under difficult deadlines. If the exposition does not include sufficient detail, some students might never learn exactly why the proof works, because not everyone has the time to work out a 10-page proof for every 10 lines in the book.
Many good universities provide accompanying notes that expand the difficult arguments by giving rigorous proofs and adding commentary to aid intuition. I think that is a great practice. I have studied several graduate-level textbooks in the last few years and while these textbooks are a boon to the world, because textbooks that expose the subject are better than no textbooks at all, I am also disappointed by how inaccessible such material often is. If I had unlimited time, I would write accompaniments to those textbooks that provide a detailed exposition of all the arguments. But of course, I don't have unlimited time. Even so, I am thinking of at least making a start by writing accompaniment notes for some topics whose exposition quality I feel strongly about, such as s-arc transitivity of graphs, field extensions and so on.
That sounds dramatic, but it’s really obvious if you think about it. Right now, a person has to study for about 20 years (on average) to make novel contributions in mathematics. They have to learn what’s come before, the techniques, the results, etc. If mathematics continues, eventually it could take 25 years, or 30 years, or even a whole lifetime. At some point, most people will not be able to understand the work that’s been done in any subfield (or the work required to understand a subfield) in a human’s life. I claim this is the logical end of mathematics, at least as a human endeavor.
Now, there will be some results which refine other work and simplify results, but being able to teach a rapidly growing body of literature efficiently will be important to stave off the end of mathematics.
To your point, I think you're right. I'm not in mathematica, but the value of good pedagogy on shrinking the time it takes to get people to the forefront of any field feels like it's heavily overlooked.
https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/09/ars-longa-vita-brevis/
There are some geniuses who do groundbreaking work, but this wouldn't be of much use it it wasn't for the millions of people who do actual work with these theories (applied math), and teachers who train the next generation. In the academia, small discoveries exist too, these can be the stepping stones for the big things to come, even if they don't have a direct application now.
I had a conversation a day ago with a couple of high-school students who, were obviously smart (and a bit on the spectrum), but also lacking in broad knowledge, as one would expect from high-school students.
I think it revealed something about that sense of 'magic' or inaccessible talent. One of them mentioned the fast inverse square root function and marvelled about how even anyone could even come up with an idea like that because it seemed to him to be some transcendent feat to be able to realise casting binary floats into ints would be useful. They had looked at the function and couldn't fathom how something like that worked.
We had no computer to hand, but I asked him what 10^100 divided by 10^10 was. Smart kid that he was, answered instantly, correctly. I then asked him what operation he performed in his head to do that, and noted floating point exponents are just using 2 instead of 10. On the spot he figured out how the fast inverse square root worked. The magic vanished and it became accessible. Some people lament the loss of 'magic' in this way, but I think the thing that makes it special, in this instance and in the universe in general, is that it still works, and it isn't magic. It's real and the fact that it be that without invoking some unaccessible property makes it even more special
On the contrary, prompting LLMs creates a whole lot of newly accessible basic work.
Interestingly enough, the moment I saw the title I thought of Bill Thurston's famous article "On proof and progress in mathematics" and the top comment on the OP's thread is from him! Reading his reply sort of gave me the antidote to the temporary blues I felt yesterday.
"That view is that there is still a great deal of value in struggling with a mathematics problem, but that the era where you could enjoy the thrill of having your name forever associated with a particular theorem or definition may well be close to its end. So if your aim in doing mathematics is to achieve some kind of immortality, so to speak, then you should understand that that won’t necessarily be possible for much longer — not just for you, but for anybody."
He may seem to imply the end is only for some subset of reasons but if you read the entire essay he is just trying to give hope where the rest of the essay is really damning!
It must feel similar to those who wanted to become chess or go masters after computers surpassed humanity in those games.
This is somewhat misleading, the LLMs' contributions are in a limited niche of highly technical problem solving. They're neat but they're not the first mathematical theorem that gets automatically solved by a computer, that was done already in the 1990s.
> Maybe by using LLMs as a mighty tool and providing skilled usage and oversight?
Yes, even in the areas where LLMs are at their best, we'll still need a lot of human effort to make the results cleanly understandable. LLMs cannot do this well, even their generated papers have to be rewritten by human experts to surface the important bits.
The can't predict the consequences of an action predicting one token after another. They can't solve a Rubik's Cube unlike a 7 year old human who can learn to do it in a weekend. They can't imagine the perspective of being a human being unlike a 7 year old human if asked to imagine they where in the position of another human.
Can you imagine what if feels like to be a LLM?
Can one LLM have a better sensation of what it feels like to be a different LLM (say one that score a little better?)?
You design circularly defined criteria...
or even just take a picture of the thing, since they can digest visual input now
On the other hand, in the very long run, what does it mean if a talented human being does not have enough years of life to fully analyze and understand an extremely advanced proof created by AI?
[0]: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/11/09/ars-longa-vita-brevis/
The most recent advances are stunts by a handful of famous prompters who are funded in various ways by the LLM industrial complex.
How many theorems are proven by mathematicians each year? Let's guess 10000. Then the Erdos toy proofs with unknown token and resource usage are less than 1%.
Ironically, there is a shoe company pivoting to AI. My taxi driver told me buy the stock:
After my PhD in applied mathematics, I decided to leave the field, partly because I feel it really has advanced so far that new discoveries do little to move the needle in the real world. There's enough smart people who obsess over nothing else but maths that I can go and do more practical stuff...
When I was in grad school, we learned about wavelets, but we did research on convex optimization for statistics. The first was an accomplishment of the last generation of mathematicians, and it would be hard to publish something groundbreaking. But nobody had really considered sparsity inducing optimization, so that was our problem.
In many ways, the situation is somewhat better for applied mathematicians because the problem space is wider. Ingrid Daubechies was an applied mathematician, and her work on wavelets was an outgrowth of work that originated in the petroleum exploration community. Wild how these connections get made.
Do the math because you enjoy doing the math and if you do it long enough you may well do something of value to someone else. Same goes for most intellectual and artistic pursuits I think.
I’ve learned for myself that as soon as enjoyment is based on some future achievement or ranking my work against others the day to day satisfaction dries up.