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Posted by haunter 3 days ago

Linux gaming is faster because Windows APIs are becoming Linux kernel features(www.xda-developers.com)
912 points | 562 commentspage 8
chanki 10 hours ago|
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d0gwut 14 hours ago||
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jocelyner 14 hours ago||
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taintlord22 19 hours ago||
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fleroviumna 23 hours ago||
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naikrovek 17 hours ago||
Nothing like copying someone else’s shit when you want to avoid thinking of new things for an operating system.

You could be more like Plan9, Linux. You could actually innovate and create new paradigms that make people look at MacOS and Windows and think that they are no longer in the same league.

But you don’t want to do that. You want to play games faster.

Fucking children run the world today. There are no adults keeping track of things making sure that as we go forward that things make sense. There’s no adult supervision in the computing industry anymore. None. It’s all just profit margins calling all the shots. Asinine.

How did it turn out for windows, being “The OS for Games”? Not great, I’d say. Windows is quickly losing that title and will soon become more and more irrelevant for gaming. If you focus on games until you’re “The OS for Games” then decide to innovate on real things that matter outside the home, then you’ll lose that title just like Microsoft is losing it now, and it will happen a lot faster for you than it did Microsoft, because the Linux community is about as organized as an Oklahoma town recently destroyed by a tornado.

Games are fast enough for anyone and there are certainly enough games today that if 5 people lived for 500 years each, there’s not enough time for them collectively to play all games that are available today.

I don’t know what you gamers think the “end game” is for games. Graphics? When are you meant to be happy? When will you stop and say, “ok, we made it”?

Graphics. Pfft. Games do not get better with more realistic graphics, and you know it. Great games are great because they are well thought out and well tested. Great games are not great because the shadows are sharper or because the reflections are more accurate. Some of the shittiest games ever look amazing, and some of the shittiest looking games are S-tier. And you all know it.

Old man mode: off

caspper69 7 hours ago|
OS Development has halted in 1970 at this point. I know everybody loves Unix, but it has the same problem as Windows- namely that anything you run under your user context has access to your whole user context. And it will continue to be a scourge until/if we ever figure out how to make capabilities ergonomic. I've been racking my brain for 30 years to try and do it, but they just make certain things very painful.
naikrovek 6 hours ago||
I agree completely.

Look at Plan 9, if you haven't. I can open a window, add/remove things from its environment (via mounting and unmounting files into that window's namespace) seal that environment to prevent changes, then launch a program.

The program can only see what is available to it via the file system. If it has no /net folder then it can't talk to the network. At all. If it has a truncated /env then it can only see a subset of the environment variables available to me, the user.

EVERYTHING being a file is ... weird. Unix has that, but Plan 9 takes about as far as it can go, which is pretty far. But that makes permissions to things quite easy, because file permissions are easy.

The other thing that Plan 9 does is that everything is a file, including your environment, mounting and unmounting things from/to your environment is how you gain/deny access to yourself and to programs.

If this permissions model was common, ransomware would have never been possible. No virus could infect your system, only its own environment (with caveats).

If you already know all of this, I apologize. If you don't, then you owe it to yourself to have a look at Plan 9. It's very weird, but once you wrap your head around it, you start seeing why some people really rave about it.

There's a channel on YouTube called "adventuresin9"[0] which has TONS of content about Plan9.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/@adventuresin9

akakabrian 14 hours ago||
I made 50 TUI games recently to just test my agent orchestration skills. If pixel graphics are retro, then ASCII is OG. Part of the reason is to make them playable on any device (including Linux), and partially so that agents themselves can play them (to help me practice my RL skills).
ThrowawayR2 3 days ago|
“He who fights with Windows should see to it that he himself does not become Windows. And when you gaze long into ntoskrnl, ntoskrnl also gazes into you.”

Seriously, is it really a victory if you have to adopt the architecture of your sworn enemy?

breve 3 days ago||
Microsoft and Windows were never the enemy.

To quote Linus Torvalds from 1997: "I don't try to be a threat to Microsoft, mainly because I don't really see MS as competition. Especially not Windows - the goals of Linux and Windows are simply so different."

ThrowawayR2 3 days ago|||
He got less humble later on when momentum started building behind Linux. To quote Linus Torvalds from 2003: “Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect.”
dpoloncsak 22 hours ago|||
I mean, this whole thread is basically suggesting that 23 years later, improvements to Linux and self-sabotage by Microsoft are going to possibly destroy (or atleast, start to cause some bleeding) to Microsoft (in the gaming-market).

This isn't Linux looking to destroy MS, this is mostly Valve understanding the requirement for an OS that won't be able to become predatory to them and their business model in a single system update.

torginus 19 hours ago||||
Personally I used to be a Linux zealot back in the early 2000s, then I actually learned to program C++ and dove a bit into OS architecture... I realized why Linux on the desktop always sucked.. Not because of some dastardly conspiracy by Microsoft, but because of the very basic fact that server people and vendors held the developer purse strings and they drove the engineering decisions.

Let's take a simple example.. to send a network packet to a different machine, you just call into the Linux kernel, which dispatches your stuff directly to the network card, and you're done. Pretty simple. However if you want to send a message to your neighboring X11 window, you have to go into the kernel to do IPC, which then somehow dispatches your message to the server process, unblocks and schedules the message pump in X11, which finds your window, then once again you go back into the kernel... then your target process is scheduled, so on and so forth.

Wildly inefficient, yet Linux never got proper good IPC merged (until binder), low latency audio sucked, and none of this coordination logic or audio processing got in the kernel.

Why? Because servers don't need that stuff and some server engineer isn't going to know or care about your use case, you're just small fry, and none of the stuff you do is worth taking on technical risk or slowing down server workloads.

lmm 17 hours ago||||
The goal was to be able to patch and fix the systems I was using, and swap out bits and pieces as I wanted. And that seems to be less and less possible on Linux these days, as you have these tightly vertically-integrated stacks where everything depends on the latest version of everything else.
MisterTea 23 hours ago|||
We are so far removed from 1997 that this statement means nothing.

> the goals of Linux and Windows are simply so different.

So different that Windows muscle memory works on most main stream Linux UI's, Many (most?) Steam games run on Linux, and now we have Windows in the Linux kernel.

not2b 23 hours ago|||
Rather, several missing, useful APIs that were hard to emulate efficiently have been added. That's not "Windows in the Linux kernel".
MisterTea 14 hours ago||
> several missing, useful APIs

Windows API's.

> That's not "Windows in the Linux kernel".

How is that not?

Pay08 23 hours ago||||
Does Windows muscle memory work? The vast majority of shortcuts are completely different for the casual user, and for the power user, there's no regedit or control panel and other such things.
nottorp 23 hours ago|||
> there's no regedit or control panel and other such things

That's not a bug, it's a feature.

Pay08 22 hours ago|||
Be that as it may, it means that the muscle memory (or more accurately, the mental model of the system) is gone. I've long held the belief that power users or knows-enough-to-be-dangerous users have a harder time switching for that exact reason.

A control panel (or cross-distro YaST) would be very welcome in the ecosystem I think.

delecti 22 hours ago||
> muscle memory (or more accurately, the mental model of the system)

That's not "more accurately", that's just a completely different thing. When I'm on Mac, my muscle memory is thrown off. I'll be typing and my ctrl+s, alt+tab, win+4, ctrl+left* all cause wildly unpredictable (to me) things. I'm currently using Linux, and all of those things work how I expect (with a tiny asterisk on win+#). When I want a control panel, I press the windows button on my keyboard to open something functionally equivalent to the start menu, and open System Settings to get something functionally equivalent to the control panel.

I have no doubt that I could learn the deep differences between Windows and Mac over time, but the initial muscle memory causes me stress before I get to that point. When I switch to Linux I don't have that stress, and so I've been comfortably learning those differences.

* - save, switch to the previously in-focus window, switch to the 4th program on the taskbar, move the cursor one word to the left

stavros 21 hours ago|||
We weren't talking about whether the registry was better or worse, we were talking about how similar the two OSes were.
nottorp 5 hours ago||
... in case of the registry, you were also talking about replacing a unix philosophy system (each application has its own standalone config file) with a windows like monolith (everything goes into the registry).

Tbh it's not even muscle memory, how often do you edit config files?

MisterTea 14 hours ago|||
Alt-Tab to cycle windows.
ranger_danger 23 hours ago||||
How do we "have Windows in the Linux kernel"?
ms_menardi 23 hours ago|||
Um... Are you referring to WSL? Wouldn't that be the linux kernel running under windows?
hparadiz 22 hours ago||
WSL 1.0 was doing something like that. Doing syscall translation in real time. Eventually edge cases forced them to abandon that architecture and now it's just a VM.
Dylan16807 12 hours ago||
Was it edge cases? I thought the main driver for WSL2 was better filesystem performance.
tardedmeme 3 days ago|||
What is the purpose of achieving victory? Is it to produce the software that works better or is it to stick your fingers in your ears and lalala the loudest?

Windows copied futexes from Linux first, anyway.

general1465 3 days ago|||
If you are refusing to have a stable architecture, then you will maintain architecture of your enemy
weiliddat 23 hours ago|||
Is the intent of Linux the architecture, or the philosophy of free / open source software?
tester756 3 days ago|||
What you care more about?

technical details or real-world outcomes?

majorchord 22 hours ago||
You might not get the answer you were hoping for there.
pixl97 3 days ago|||
I mean the NT kernel was never really the enemy, it was the company behind it.
pjmlp 3 days ago|||
Not really, in the drunken happiness to have games, Linux users keep forgetting those are games developed on game studios that the only place there are GNU/Linux installations running are their MMO servers.

It is no different from arguing how Linux is getting better GameCube games with Dolphin.

Also Valve is only as good as its current management is still around, eventually like any other company time will pass, and new warm bodies will take other decisions.

wwweston 23 hours ago||
interface and architecture may influence each other, but interface doesn’t determine architecture