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Posted by cl3misch 3 days ago

England Runestones(en.wikipedia.org)
58 points | 22 comments
eschulz 6 hours ago|
The voyages and sagas of the vikings are very interesting, but something I find to also be fascinating is the economic and cultural history that brought about the viking age and then several centuries later ended it. It does seem kind of sudden; there was a niche that suddenly caused vikings to travel everywhere, and then it was just over.
lukan 5 hours ago||
I think mainly it was, that they became civilized/baptized and christians were still free to plunder and enslave non christians, but not fellow christians.

So the vikings did not just stop, but rather became crusaders:

"In 1107, Sigurd I of Norway sailed for the eastern Mediterranean with Norwegian crusaders to fight for the newly established Kingdom of Jerusalem; the kings of Denmark and Sweden participated actively in the Baltic Crusades of the 12th and 13th centuries"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikings

(But otherwise of course many factors contributed to the rise and fall of the vikings and there indeed seems to have been a niche, with a temporary weakness, no christian nordic fleets etc.)

teiferer 5 hours ago|||
> they became civilized/baptized

How are civilized and baptized comparable concepts? The vikings surely had a civilization before christianity took hold and ascribing sone kind of higher ethics to christianity is also quite a stretch.

vintermann 5 hours ago|||
"Civilization" is ill-defined anyway. What's certain is that long before they embraced Christianity in a form other European Christians would recognize as such, they admired Europe. Europe had great buildings, castles, cathedrals, palaces, walled cities, places of learning, markets, unlike anything in Scandinavia at the time. They wanted those things. And they could only get so far as pirates and slavers.
lukan 5 hours ago|||
Interesting that you see it as a higher ethics to be OK with only enslaving non christians, because I really did not mean anything like that, as I do not see it as a higher ethic.

And like the other commenter pointed out, civilization is ill defined. I was mainly using it here from the christian point of view, where pagans are not civilized by definition. Not that the norse had not a complex society themself.

graemep 2 hours ago||||
I do not think that stacks up as an explanation. The crusades were not financially remunerative - the crusaders mostly lost money. They might have made money if they were hired as mercenaries though - the famous example of that being the Varangian guard.

I do not think its entirely true to say Christians were "free to plunder and enslave non-Christians". Even against non-Christians war required justification (OK, you can make something up, but there is an extra barrier) and slavery (and slave trading in particular) was increasingly discouraged (until its revival in early modern times, of course).

One of the big examples of a formerly Viking people participating in the crusades was Norman Sicily which was one of the most enlightened (religious freedom, for example) societies of its time.

The Normans also settled down in Normandy and England and stopped raiding.

lukan 1 hour ago||
"I do not think its entirely true to say Christians were "free to plunder and enslave non-Christians""

Well, I am not a historian, but was there any war against pagans, that was stopped by the church or individual priests?

(talking about medieval times, modern christianity is a bit different, but the old tradition seems to get a revival in certain circles)

The most I know of, is individual priests who for example criticize the acts of the conquistadores. But crusades to "spread" christianity were rather pushed as a sure way to get into heaven as far as I know.

"The crusades were not financially remunerative - the crusaders mostly lost money."

That is probably why they stopped doing it. Before christianity they had all the coasts of europe to blunder. After their kings turned christians who made treaties with the mainland christian empires - that was not possible anymore and raiding, even under the disguise of crusade, much harder and therefore less attractive (apart from that I did not claim that my explanation is the explanation, just a contributing factor)

graemep 1 hour ago||
> Well, I am not a historian, but was there any war against pagans, that was stopped by the church or individual priests?

I recall reading a priest or monk influenced Charlemagne to stop/moderate his persecution of pagans. I very much doubt this was the only example, just one I have read about.

> But crusades to "spread" christianity were rather pushed as a sure way to get into heaven as far as I know.

In very specific cases, most notably the liberation of Jerusalem, not in general.

> That is probably why they stopped doing it.

Crusades went on for about 400 years if you count things such as the Reconquista

I also find it hard to believe they could not find profitable wars. It was not difficult to find an excuse for war. Being Christians did not prevent either Harald Haraddra or William the Conqueror from invading England.

> The most I know of, is individual priests who for example criticize the acts of the conquistadores

It was more than just scattered individuals voicing criticism. It was a movement that lead to action and legislation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protector_of_the_Indians

lukan 1 hour ago||
"Crusades went on for about 400 years if you count things such as the Reconquista

I also find it hard to believe they could not find profitable wars."

Well, sailing from norway to england, do some raiding then come back before the winter sounds way easier, than sailing from norway to the middle east and back. So it has been done, but apparently was not so worth it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protector_of_the_Indians

And here thanks for the link, I know little of that time, but I am not so sure if it counts as protecting pagans, or protecting baptized pagans who are christians.

card_zero 3 hours ago|||
The runestone fad was kicked off by Harald Bluetooth's runestone, featuring a picture of Christ and a boast about making the Danes into Christians, and half these runestones (all emulating the Bluetooth one) mention God. But at first the politically expedient religion was just a performance, I guess, until later on they started to mean it. They probably still wore hammer amulets and so on.
lkramer 53 minutes ago||
Conveniently the hammer is deceptively similar to the cross in general shape.
4ndrewl 3 hours ago|||
Depends on how you're using the terms. Norsemen/Danes were the people, Viking was a job. The viking raids of the summer months were replaced by longer term settlements/political agreements (eg Danelaw, London, Dublin, med coast, Seville) but that still necessitated plenty of waterborne travel.
lokimedes 6 hours ago|||
Maybe it was good weather [1] on the isles for once?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period

_dain_ 2 hours ago||
States got strong and organized enough that they could consistently defeat the raiders. Castles, feudalism, better lines of communication, bigger and more professional armies.
designerarvid 5 hours ago||
Just reread this[0] classic piece that captures Viking life. It holds up so well.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Long-Ships-Review-Books-Classics/dp/1...

lukan 4 hours ago|
The cover with the viking in a horned helmet does not hold up so well for me. The text is more historically accurate?
andreasgl 2 hours ago||
That's just poor taste by the publisher of the translation. I think this is the original cover of the first part from 1941, which is a bit more subtle: https://img.tradera.net/images/363/614895363_bd12c6ee-75d3-4...

It's a great book, I highly recommend it.

lukan 1 hour ago||
Thanks, I will give it a try then.
petters 4 hours ago||
Wikipedia is amazing. The Swedish articles are even longer.
Symbiote 2 hours ago|
I agree — but I was expecting actual runes to be shown, not just a transcription into Latin characters.

Like on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelling_stones (ᚼᛅᚱᛅᛚᛏᚱ᛬ᚴᚢᚾᚢᚴᛦ᛬ᛒᛅᚦ᛬ᚴᛅᚢᚱᚢᛅ etc).

triyambakam 4 hours ago||
It's very interesting how fascinating the Vikings still are to many people. They did a lot of amazing things, and a lot of horrible things.
flohofwoe 1 hour ago|
Hard to judge when most reports about the Viking raids are coming from Christian monks though, those reports were not exactly unbiased. The vikings most likely were not any more or less horrible than any other band of roaming thugs at the time, the main difference was probably how quick the Vikings could appear and disappear.
jaspanglia 3 minutes ago||
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vladsiu 5 hours ago|
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