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Posted by veqq 12 hours ago

Hyperpolyglot Lisp: Common Lisp, Racket, Clojure, Emacs Lisp(hyperpolyglot.org)
156 points | 35 comments
sinsudo 11 hours ago|
I know that the purpose of the page is to compare syntax of common lisp, racket, clojure, and emacs lisp. But some examples could be more idiomatic, for instance instead of

  (defun add (a &rest b)
    (if (null b)
        a
        (+ a (eval (cons '+ b)))))
One should avoid eval and use endp instead of null:

   (defun add (a &rest b)
        (if (endp b) a
            (apply #'add (+ a (first b)) (rest b))))
aidenn0 3 hours ago||
The use of cl:eval alone is enough to make me believe that the CL column was never reviewed by an experienced CL programmer. I am now more suspicious of the other columns, which are languages I'm far less familiar with.
kscarlet 2 hours ago|||

  (defparameter *a* '(1 2 3))
  (setf (car *a*) 3)
And this is undefined behavior because it mutates literal constant. I stopped reading further. The CL column is so bad.
CodeArtisan 9 hours ago|||
Shouldn't it be (+ a (apply + b))
db48x 8 hours ago||
Almost. It should be (+ a (apply #'+ b)). Common Lisp is a Lisp-2, so a + in the argument position is assumed to be a variable named +, not the function named +, unless you specify otherwise.
ludston 9 hours ago||
Worse: Using recursion in Common Lisp isn't idiomatic, given that CL doesn't guarantee tail-call optimisation in the specification.
dreamcompiler 7 hours ago|||
Sigh. This again.

All major Common Lisps support tail call optimization with proper declarations, with the exception of ABCL because it runs on the JVM.

And those declarations are all identical or almost identical, so it's easy to write an implementation-specific macro to guarantee TCO if you need to do so.

Some algorithms are easiest to express and read with looping constructs. For those algorithms, use looping constructs. Other algorithms are easiest to express and read with recursion. For those, use recursion. You shouldn't be afraid of recursion just because ANSI doesn't say TCO is guaranteed. You should be afraid of it if your code needs to run on ABCL, but otherwise, recur on.

aidenn0 4 hours ago|||
I think it is fair to say that the CL community is divided on whether or not relying on TCO is idiomatic.

I prefer to write my state-machines as transitioning with tail-calls, and I do get called for it. It's relatively easy to switch something written in that manner to using a loop with a trampoline, so I do so when my collaborators request it.

ludston 3 hours ago||
I wouldn't argue about things that are a matter of taste normally, except that I've had the experience where I've turned down optimizer settings in order to debug some code better and then the had stack overflow.
ludston 4 hours ago|||
Sigh and yet it continues to be true. You can make a pragmatic decision and rely on tail call optimisation for your specific case, but if you are writing a CL library, then it is not idiomatic to use recursion in the same way that you would for Clojure or Scheme.

Even with SBCL, for example, it doesn't have tail-call optimisation for all architectures at all optimisation levels.

vindarel 10 hours ago||
Notes on CL:

- why nothing on the "compiler" line? Everytime you load a snippet or a file with SBCL, it compiles it (to machine code). There's also compile-file.

- interpreter: likewise, all code is compiled by default with SBCL, not interpreted, even in the REPL. To use the interpreter, we must do this: https://github.com/lisp-tips/lisp-tips/issues/52

- command line program: the racket cell shows the use of -e (eval), the same can be done with any CL implementation.

- since the string split line introduces cl-ppcre, one could mention cl-str :D (plug) (much terser join, trim, concat etc)

- ah ok, for dates and times, flattening a list, hash-table literals… we need more libraries.

- more files operations: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/files.html

- emacs buffers: now compare with Lem buffers 8-)

- posix-getenv: I'd rather use uiop:getenv (comes in implementations).

- uiop:*command-line-arguments*

- exit: uiop:quit

- uiop:run-program (sync) / launch-program (async)

- java interop: with LispWorks or ABCL (or other libraries)

my 2c

sinsudo 10 hours ago||
Since you are also commenting libraries, I think that FSet (1) for inmutable memory,and perhaps a comparison with clojure, and the quick-lisp package manager could be mentioned.

(1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47779659

aidenn0 3 hours ago||
> - ah ok, for dates and times

local-time has its limits (e.g. Gregorian only), but it does everything listed in this chart

> flattening a list

What? Isn't this[1] just fine (<s>)

> hash-table literals…

Since the chart is sbcl specific, this ugly mess would technically count; a more portable (but longer) version could be made similarly using #.:

  #.(SB-IMPL::%STUFF-HASH-TABLE (MAKE-HASH-TABLE :TEST 'EQUAL) '((:X . :Y))) 
> java interop: with LispWorks or ABCL (or other libraries)

I've had good luck with .net/java interop using FOIL (written by Rich Hickey prior to Clojure).

1:

  CL-USER> (let* ((result (cons nil nil))
                 (tail result))
             (subst-if t
                       (constantly nil)
                       '(a ((b(c d)) e) f)
                       :key (lambda (x)
                              (when (and x (atom x)) (setf (cdr tail) (cons x   nil)
                                                           tail (cdr tail)))))
             (cdr result))
=> (A B C D E F)
sinsudo 11 hours ago||
The page indicates that there is not function for documentation in common lisp, but

  (documentation 'documentation 'function)
      "Return the documentation string of Doc-Type for X, or NIL if none 
        exists. 
        System doc-types are VARIABLE, FUNCTION, STRUCTURE, TYPE, SETF, and T.

 Also http://rosettacode.org for computer tasks implemented in many computer languages to allow you compare syntax and code.
dreamcompiler 7 hours ago|
Likewise apropos. It's an ANSI function.
kickingvegas 9 hours ago||
Perhaps related, I'm maintaining a "cheatsheet" to let Python programmers see what an Elisp equivalent to typical Python functions/methods are.

https://kickingvegas.github.io/elisp-for-python/

emil-lp 9 hours ago|
Are `(push s x)` and `(push x s)` correct for push and insert, resp.?
aidenn0 3 hours ago||
CL list comprehension:

  (loop for file across "ABCDEFGH"
        nconc (loop for rank from 1 to 9
                    collect (format nil "~C~D" file rank)))
eamonnsullivan 12 hours ago||
Clojure 1.6, Emacs 24.5... These are pretty old versions, at least of those.
rahen 8 hours ago||
Emacs Lisp is a descendant of PDP-10 MAClisp, which makes it one of the oldest Lisp dialects still actively maintained. Whether it's version 24.5 or 30.2 doesn't make much of a difference semantically.
db48x 11 hours ago|||
Most of the things in that table won’t change from version to version anyway.
devin 7 hours ago||
To be fair I think the only real differences since 1.6 you’d see are transducer versions of some of what’s in here for Clojure. The stuff expressed here is all very basic.
ethagnawl 11 hours ago||
This is really neat.

Something I've been meaning to do is try putting together a cross-lisp package manager -- if only because it'd be fun. Maybe it would favor code that could be readily run or eval'd or maybe with some sort of clj/cljs type dynamic dispatch for anything implementation specific.

ecto 12 hours ago||
Great chrestomathy! I opened a PR for my lisp, Loon: https://github.com/clarkgrubb/hyperpolyglot/pull/139
wk_end 8 hours ago|
With all due respect, if this page adds a column for everyone's personal Lisp, it'll be as wide as the Pacific.
ecto 6 hours ago||
They say ethics and aesthetics are one!
FergusArgyll 10 hours ago||
As someone who's not a programmer but has beginner - medium python & C skills. I'm in middle of learning lisp (elisp to be precise) and it feels like reading poetry. It's a transcendent experience that's hard to explain. Such beautiful concepts. Everything flows in a way it doesn't in C based langs
arikrahman 11 hours ago|
Would be interesting to see how Jank is coming along in this space as well.
veqq 8 hours ago|
Jank's just supposed to be Clojure with full compatibility, when mature.
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