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Posted by bifftastic 7 hours ago

How to convert between wealth and income tax(paulgraham.com)
131 points | 448 commentspage 5
jmcmaster 6 hours ago|
So make income tax a deduction on a wealth tax, and avoid penalizing people who do indeed pay top marginal rate income tax on a large salary/bonus.

Given that the ultrarich pay very little to no income tax then Paul’s argument is “don’t increase my income tax from unnoticeable to 20%”

Jblx2 1 minute ago|
You probably mean that incomes taxes should be subtracted from wealth taxes? (I don't know that "deduction" is right technical term). That sounds like a good idea, and should probably also include subtracting out capital gains taxes as well. So if you had a $500,000 calculated income tax liability, and a $600,000 calculated wealth tax liability, you would only end up paying $600,000 in taxes (instead of $1,100,000).
Cider9986 4 hours ago||
It's not excessive to charge a 1% wealth tax when the people paying it don't pay any income tax thanks to their financial engineering.
Cider9986 4 hours ago||
It's not excessive to charge a 1% wealth tax when the people paying it don't pay any income tax thanks to their financial engineering.

Here is a cool website showing Wealth, shown to scale.

https://wealth.ronnycoste.com

zedpm 6 hours ago||
Are there serious proposals to just add a wealth tax on top of the existing income tax that would apply to the sort of people who actually pay much in income tax vs capital gains? It's an honest question; I haven't seen proposals of that sort, so I'm skeptical that the arguments are meaningful here. For an individual like Jeff Bezos, he's paying virtually no tax under the normal income tax rates referenced in the article, but rather capital gains tax, which tops out at 20%, not 37%.
alistairSH 4 hours ago|
None that I've seen, though I'm sure somebody somewhere has introduced something.

All that I've seen are wealth taxes on top of some arbitrary (but very large) wealth level. The latest proposal from Congress applied a 2% tax to wealth above $50 million with an additional 1% (3% total) on wealth over $1 billion. Plus a 40% exit tax to stop them all from fleeing to the Bahamas or Monaco.

n2d4 6 hours ago||
The conversion would be more accurate if it compared wealth and capital gains taxes, no?

A defining feature of wealth taxes is that they only tax those that make most of their income through capital gains. This is why they're popular among much of the population.

Now the question is, if we lowered capgains tax rate by 20% but instituted a 1% wealth tax, would that be better or worse? My guess would be worse because wealth taxes are nearly unenforcable, but I wonder if there are good arguments for the other position.

tyleo 6 hours ago|
What makes them unenforceable?
econ 1 hour ago||
So 5% wealth tax would be the same as 100% income tax, 6% would de 120% AND 100% wealth tax would be the same as 2000% income tax.

I think some relevant factors are missing. What is the polite way of putting it... Ah right! You are a clown!

kansface 29 minutes ago|
A 6% wealth tax indeed taxes more than the expected rate of return on the base assets. That is indeed equivalent to a higher rate than 100% in terms of an income tax. This math is in favor of PG’s argument.
tony69 7 hours ago||
Wealth tax is highly impractical. Very high and inescapable death taxes is what we need. Like 80% after an initial exemption amount. https://www.yesigiveafig.com/p/the-summer-slide-part-3-the-t... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mX5U5DNUfBc
jeffreyrogers 6 hours ago||
There are all kinds of irrevocable trusts that exist to remove assets from your taxable estate so that they can be passed to heirs without paying estate tax. Raising the estate tax (which is already 40%) would just make planning to use these techniques more attractive.
BugsJustFindMe 4 hours ago||
The existence of perpetual trusts is solvable in a world that has decided to fix the insanity caused by intergenerational wealth transfer instead of propping it up. "This thing we could also eliminate stops us from eliminating this other thing" is a silly platform. Just eliminate them both.
jeffreyrogers 2 hours ago||
Perpetual trusts are different from irrevocable trusts, which have legitimate use cases. I don't really see how irrevocable trusts would be gotten rid of. In most states all trusts are irrevocable by default and there is a huge body of law dealing with trusts. Getting rid of them is essentially impossible without huge changes in the political/legal system.
BugsJustFindMe 2 hours ago|||
> Getting rid of them is essentially impossible without huge changes in the political/legal system.

So is getting rid of intergenerational wealth transfer. So since we're already dreaming about a new system that seems irrelevant.

> legitimate use cases

Intergenerational wealth transfer also has "legitimate use cases" if one gets to define "legitimate". I'm curious what legitimate cases you have in mind.

tony69 2 hours ago|||
By “raising death taxes”, I meant comprehensively, eliminating loopholes, as the sources I linked discuss more at length.

Re: irrevocable trust, a cursory search revealed no legitimate use case imo, all use cases I see are proxies to skirt taxes or hide income/wealth. What would you consider a legitimate use case for one?

Your point re: case law is well taken, but per [2] up until a few decades ago there was a cat-and-mouse game between laws and tricks regarding inheritance wealth transfer. This stopped and it’s easier than ever to transfer > 10M tax free at or death, which has massive implications for wealth inequality.

That said I agree it’s extremely unlikely and have no hope that any of this will change.

mw1 6 hours ago||
Wow, I like to actually see the numbers laid out like this. Most of the ultra-wealthy pay almost nothing on their income taxes from investments because they have found ways to avoid capital gains, and even if they were paying long term capital gains rates of 15%, pg’s assertion that the wealth tax adds another 20% doesn’t seem unreasonable at all. If anything, it makes me think 1% is not nearly enough of a wealth tax!
k2enemy 6 hours ago||
Lots of confusion and misunderstanding in these comments. Not surprising, given the highly charged nature of the subject. I highly recommend Ray Madoff's book The Second Estate [1] to learn more about the topic.

[1] https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/S/bo256019...

dgellow 6 hours ago|
Mind sharing what commenters are getting wrong?
big_toast 6 hours ago||
I believe some of Ray Madoff's points are that the tax code and most tax intuitions kinda differ.

There's the idea that "wealth" gains tend to not be taxed for a variety of reasons. The common parlance of "Buy, Borrow, Die" category things. The "step-up in basis" category things - i.e. no capital gains tax realized on lots of inherited wealth. (The inheritance tax might trigger in some cases, but oddly the capital gains tax often might not be triggered on transferred assets because they were never sold and the new possessor will be taxed at the stepped up received value if they ever sell. So there's a chunk of appreciation that never received capital gains taxation.) Trust related things.

There's the idea that 501(c)(4)s allow wealth to be transferred untaxed while retaining control over the assets (particularly because those organizations can engage in political activity, but I'd guess generally some of the organizations exert lots of influence/prestige.)

So perhaps OP is suggesting that maybe there's some fungibility in income tax % and wealth tax %, but when you look at the tax code the equivalency looks pretty weak currently.

julianozen 5 hours ago|
I think a lot of ink has been spilled on the problems with the proposed California Wealth tax, the main points being:

1- Is this in fact a 1-time tax or is that a dishonest narrative to make the proposal easier to swallow?

2- How do you prevent capital flight to other states?

3- How do those with paper money or more voting shares than equity shares cover their tax bill?

That being said, I think more creative energy needs to be spent on the problem itself.

What do we do about individuals with $100M+ of unrealized capital gains that through various methods will never have to realize those gains to live an extraordinary lavish lifestyle, and their children will inherit the money with a step-up in basis? For those who make all their money from W2s, they pay very high tax burdens, while those who strictly have capital gains generally pay at most around ~20% for LTCG.

To those criticizing the California Wealth Tax, how do we solve this? How do we make billionaires pay more and lawyers/doctors/software engineers pay less?

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