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Posted by intelkishan 3 hours ago

Memory has grown to nearly two-thirds of AI chip component costs(epoch.ai)
149 points | 160 commentspage 2
ecommerceguy 1 hour ago|
As models gain efficiency, will the need for ram cool?
throwatdem12311 57 minutes ago|
They’ll just fill up the ram with bigger models. Demand will INCREASE, not decrease.
DoctorOetker 2 hours ago||
It's still unclear to me: the shortage is semiconductor boules / wafers? or the shortage is semiconductor fab process step availability?

As long as the discussion seems focused on memory, I'd suspect the latter, but if its really the semiconductor boules/wafers, then I'd expect the boule growers to profit, not the memory makers, who just pass on the cost.

So which is it?

AnotherGoodName 2 hours ago||
It’s fab capacity. Fwiw dram is different enough that fabs are not transferable between dram memory and other usages. It’s nice to think ‘wow if they made the current 10nm dram on the latest 2nm processes it’d be much faster’ but it doesn’t work that way. The specific size is needed for the capacitance. Sram can be made on fabs that make other circuitry since it’s transistor not capacitor based but is less dense.

Dram is just extremely specialised.

DoctorOetker 2 hours ago||
I know the differences between SRAM, DRAM, ...

I asked for evidence different people keep feeding me opposite stories: one insists its not fab capacity but wafer competition, with a recent article claiming HBM3E takes 3 times as much wafer area per bit than LPDDR5X. Others tell me the complete opposite: its fab capacity, not wafer shortage.

Do we have citable references to ground either set of claims?

sowbug 56 minutes ago||
I believe those are two ways of describing the same thing. If you're able to book some fab capacity, that means you get to decide what the fab does with the next wafers in the queue.

From your sibling comment, I think you're interpreting the 3x HBM stat as contributing to making wafers scarce. It's more that the next wafer to be processed in a fab is especially precious, making the opportunity cost larger. The beach sand remains plentiful.

jacekm 2 hours ago|||
There is a good article (featured on HN a couple of days ago) that explains the issue: https://davidoks.blog/p/ai-is-killing-the-cheap-smartphone
DoctorOetker 2 hours ago||
And that article is contradicting other voices. If that article were correctly identifying the bottleneck as wafer shortage due to switching to HBM, why is everybody discussing the memory makers instead of the boule growers. Memory makers can expand operations all they can, which makes no sense if wafer supply doesn't follow, and the article is suspicously light on semiconductor boule / wafer mfr's.

So which is the bottleneck: fabs or boule growing?

also consider how most solar panels are monocrystalline silicon, how credible is silicon wafer shortage ... really? there is so much disinformation in this market...

stevenwoo 39 minutes ago|||
This covers it pretty well https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48229319, TLDR -memory for AI uses more wafers from same production line as other memory and is more profitable, building new fab very risky historically for companies. The companies have cut production of other memory to favor memory for AI and the market for memory for AI is still unfulfilled so prices still go up for customers of every type.
regularfry 35 minutes ago||
Regardless of the specific mechanics of the bottleneck, we know what the proximate source of the problem is: openai locking up 40% of Samsung and SK Hynix wafer capacity for the next few years. That's what triggered the madness.
shevy-java 1 hour ago||
I think the companies that drive up the prices here, need to pay an extra-tax to all of us. I fail to see why I now have to pay more due to the AI monster companies ruining the economy.
MrGilbert 2 hours ago||
I assume that memory manufacturers don’t really care where the money is coming from, as long as the "numbers go up" game is working.

NVIDIA in their recent quarterly report stopped categorizing "Geforce" as a single category, and merged it into "Edge-Computing".

If you are a PC Gamer or PC Enthusiast as I am, then we have some dark times ahead.

reactordev 2 hours ago|
Do we though? DLSS 5 changes that somewhat from a “we need powah” to “we need models”. I think the future consumer GPU market will be tuned for image and world inference while workstation cards will be tuned for image and video inference. The old way of thinking about this will come to an end when we stop looking at the render loop as the be-all-end-all…

Or, we could be fucked.

MrGilbert 59 minutes ago|||
From my point of view, I suppose we will enter a "Let AI generate entertainment" era. In which you just might rent everything, including games. No need for a beefy computer at home, you just need a slim endpoint:

"Order yours now, for just $99.99 per month, hardware included! Order today, and you will get three months of 'Office Suite' for free, with a small additional cost of $49.99 after month 4. On a tight budget? Switch to the yearly subscription, and pay comfortably in 18 installments."

kg 1 hour ago|||
If DLSS 5 becomes the norm it's possible that just makes things worse. The DLSS 5 demos required an entire separate card to run the model, though IIRC NVIDIA did claim it would eventually work on a single card. Given what the model is doing (yassifying the whole scene instead of just upscaling/reconstructing) it makes sense to me that it would increase compute demand instead of reduce it like previous versions of DLSS.
chvid 2 hours ago||
Time to let ASML sell to the Chinese memory producers … or not.
TheGrassyKnoll 2 hours ago||
I wish I had figured that out a year ago. MU up ~10x, SNDK up ~37x. My crystal ball is woefully under performing.
amazingamazing 2 hours ago||
A commodity rapidly increasing in price. What could go wrong?
Traubenfuchs 2 hours ago||
Why did this happen so suddenly?

Why were tech savy investors unable to figure this out when the datacenter craze had already started?

How to explain this lag between quickly rising demand for all datacenter components besides memory?

johnvanommen 2 hours ago||
Nine years after Google's seminal paper lit the fuse on AI, a total lack of manufacturing foresight has trapped over a trillion dollars of incoming capital in a hardware bottleneck.

The entire sector is now facing a critical RAM starvation crisis where memory manufacturers are actively slow-rolling supply just to keep prices high and avoid running out entirely.

This has created an unprecedented supply-and-demand distortion where desperate companies are getting rejected even at a 5x markup, and mission-critical SKUs are skyrocketing to 10x and 20x their baseline value.

It is a macroeconomic squeeze at a staggering scale, and the massive venture scale opportunity lies in capturing the value created by this memory gatekeeper.

From the perspective of an armchair economist, the winners will be the investors who invest in RAM wisely. The losers will likely be cash strapped SAAS companies. They’re almost completely dependent on a fleet of servers in the hyperscalers, and they’re leasing those servers and services. That leaves small SAAS companies exposed to incoming inflation in the cost of hosting.

chairmansteve 1 hour ago|||
"That leaves small SAAS companies exposed to incoming inflation in the cost of hosting".

Which they will pass on to their customers. If their product provides enough value the customers will pay.....

irthomasthomas 2 hours ago||||
A lot of words to say that Sam Altman bought up the worlds total supply of ram chips for the next few years.
Auracle 59 minutes ago||
A dick move or just really prescient?
regularfry 34 minutes ago||
It's only prescient if it works out. But it's a dick move either way.
vb-8448 1 hour ago|||
Capex expenditure start exploding after covid with the chart going hockey stick at the end of 23/start of 24, almost 2.5 years ago.

A lot of capex is supposed to go into the datacentres, didn't they know that datacentres need to be filled among other stuff with RAM? I wonder if at some point we will discover that there is a shortage of fibre optic cables of SFPs ...

PS: Obviously armchair economist here too ... but for it doesn't seem too difficult to foresee the increase of the demand.

skybrian 2 hours ago|||
RAM is a boom-and-bust industry, so memory manufacturers were reluctant to invest. Here's a good blog post on the economics:

https://davidoks.blog/p/ai-is-killing-the-cheap-smartphone

Maybe long-term purchase agreements from big buyers might have helped convince them it's okay to build, but apparently it didn't happen.

LPisGood 2 hours ago||
The same reason they didn’t all sell everything to buy NVIDIA the day chatGPT came out
alasdairnicol 1 hour ago||
C
deadbabe 3 hours ago|
Here’s the thing, what if memory manufacturers take this opportunity to collude and basically never reduce the price of memory below the current levels since it’s too hard for a new competitor to just rise up and undercut them? Everything I hear about is how hard and risky it is to spin up a new fab.

And by doing this, they ensure local LLMs never become feasible for the vast majority of people and AI companies solidify subscriptions forever.

aurareturn 2 hours ago||
Keeping prices at this level is precisely how one or more competitor will rise up. Making memory isn’t super hard. That’s why it is a commodity. The problem with the memory market is that up and down cycles have bankrupted the vast majority of players in the past. Now we only have 3 players left except for a few smaller ones in China.

The reason memory prices can stay high for years in this mega cycle is because the 3 players will be very cautious on overbuilding. They’d rather under build, make great profit (not maximum) and reduce the risk of going bust if this suddenly ends.

Same for TSMC in chips.

Great opportunity for Chinese companies though. This shortage is exactly what Chinese companies need to scale.

petra 10 minutes ago|||
//Making memory isn’t super hard. That’s why it is a commodity.

These two aren't related.

Dram is a commodity because the you can replace a chip from hynix with a chip from micron, the have the same behaviour.

And a price competitive Dram isn't easy manufacture, or China would have made it already.

dymk 2 hours ago||||
> Making memory isn’t super hard.

Then why do only 3 companies make it?

aurareturn 2 hours ago|||
Bankruptcy risks.

When Samsung had to sell memory at a loss after COVID, no one came to save them. They buffered their memory division using profits from their other businesses. That’s how Samsung survives memory downturns.

According to some stories, this is how Samsung convinced TSMC to not enter the memory business - that you need a nation or other lines of business to prevent bankruptcies.

The market has stabilized to 3 players.

dymk 2 hours ago||
...And why do they go bankrupt?

Because it's an incredibly capital intensive process, involving billions of dollars of investment into manufacturing infrastructure.

That is to say, making memory is quite hard.

aurareturn 2 hours ago|||
The technical process of making memory is relatively easy. Hence, it is a commodity.

I didn’t say owning a memory business is easy.

kortilla 1 hour ago|||
You’re confusing two independent things. There are simple processes that are extremely capital intensive with long lead times and then there are complex processes that require lots of R&D and industry secrets. Memory is the former in the chip world.

Other examples from outside of tech of easy but capital intensive processes are power generation and railroads. Very easy to do, but easy to end up broken by overbuilding for demand that fails to materialize or stay stable for the duration of your financing.

DoctorOetker 2 hours ago|||
Making the memory can be much easier than predicting future demand.

Placing the bet isn't as hard as making an accurate prediction.

jazzyjackson 2 hours ago|||
> up and down cycles have bankrupted the vast majority of players in the past

Exactly, so what’s the incentive for anyone to sink half a billy into building out more capacity.

The existing players get to rest on their laurels and succeed whether or not the AI bubble busts.

aurareturn 2 hours ago|||
The incentive is that your 2 competitors will build more than you and gain market share on you if you are too conservative.

Samsung, SK Hynix, and Micron all have to balance between capex spending, making as much profit as possible, and risk of bankruptcy.

deadbabe 2 hours ago||
So are the new competitors currently in progress of starting up? Because it takes at least several years.
aurareturn 2 hours ago||
Only Chinese companies have a chance. Problem is that China can’t buy EUV machines and the most advanced memory chips now use EUV.

Heck, the US is now pressuring ASML to not sell even DUV machines to China, period.

jtbayly 2 hours ago|||
When costs are high enough, you can recoup that, if you have an appetite for risking the downturn.
YetAnotherNick 2 hours ago|||
If the collude to say make the price $1000 for a component that costs them $100(including opportunity costs), then either a new company or a greedy company in the collusion can make their price secretly $900 and get massively more profit.

Right now their opportunity cost is too high.

> risky it is to spin up a new fab

You don't need a new fab. You can build memory in 20 years old fab.

stavros 2 hours ago|||
Then that's a cartel and hopefully regulators will act.
deadbabe 2 hours ago||
They won’t.
aurareturn 2 hours ago||
They will. DOJ prosecuted memory makers in the late 90s and 2000s for collusion.

This boom is magnitudes higher than before. The attention will be endless.

deadbabe 2 hours ago|||
Current DOJ is corrupt as fuck, it will not happen. Get back to reality.
aurareturn 2 hours ago|||
They will respond when people are loud enough. If memory stays at $1200 for 128GB for years and investigative journalists say it could be colluding, enough people will make enough noise.

I’m sure Nvidia, Elon, Tim Cook, OpenAI, Anthropic are already whispering in Trump’s ears to do something.

BigTTYGothGF 1 hour ago|||
> I’m sure Nvidia, Elon, Tim Cook, OpenAI, Anthropic are already whispering in Trump’s ears to do something

You can't expect me to believe that any of those would want any kind of antitrust action against anybody.

aurareturn 1 hour ago||
Sure they do. They all have money interests in this. They all want lower memory prices.

Memory prices and shortages directly impact all of their profit margins and revenue.

wahnfrieden 2 hours ago|||
Once the masses are disenfranchised network state serfs according to plan, loudness won't matter
kortilla 1 hour ago|||
Corrupt doesn’t mean “acts without incentives”. If you assume a corrupt system, then the inputs are going to be who has influence over the DOJ. If there is more money to be made by breaking a cartel, then they would absolutely do it.
CamperBob2 2 hours ago|||
That was a very different DOJ. They no longer work for us. They act as Trump's personal law firm.
shaky-carrousel 2 hours ago|||
Then China will come and eat their lunch. I for one will only buy Chinese RAM from now on, no matter the prices.
granzymes 2 hours ago||
>I for one will only buy Chinese RAM from now on, no matter the prices.

Memory is a commodity, so I think you will be very lonely in your quest.

sieabahlpark 2 hours ago||
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