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Posted by theorchid 6 hours ago

I manage teams without a single call(orchidfiles.com)
51 points | 48 comments
joshuamoyers 1 hour ago|
> But for me, it becomes the event my whole day starts to revolve around. I have to break out of my flow, put my tasks on hold, take the call, and then get back into context. In the end, a 10-minute call can cost me several hours of focus.

Occasionally I get this feeling for a large customer meeting or a public talk, because there are consequences and serious prep. But this is just trying to normalize extreme social anxiety and call it a management style.

One reason you get together to talk is so you can hash out details on potentially ambiguous topics, so you don't head in the wrong direction causing net negative contribution.

Another is that people are not automata. Humans require inspiration and motivation and you need to reinforce the vision of what you are building and why. Its also even sometimes a reasonable idea to ask about how their life is going and check up on their family and pets and career aspirations.

In general, some people should not be managers, and there is plenty of room in the world for super ICs.

Rohansi 30 minutes ago||
> Another is that people are not automata. Humans require inspiration and motivation and you need to reinforce the vision of what you are building and why. Its also even sometimes a reasonable idea to ask about how their life is going and check up on their family and pets and career aspirations.

And you need meetings to do all of this? There are so many other ways to communicate which you make more use of when you are less dependent on meetings. It's not a binary choice between meetings and extreme social anxiety.

darkwater 27 minutes ago||
> And you need meetings to do all of this? There are so many other ways to communicate which you make more use of when you are less dependent on meetings. It's not a choice between meetings and extreme social anxiety.

Yes, "this meeting could have been an email", async communication and all that jazz. Nonetheless stating that a 10 minutes quick chat is going to be the center of that day for you definitely signals social anxiety.

CharlesW 27 minutes ago|||
Yes, the "10-minute call becomes the event my whole day starts to revolve around" is very ADHD and/or autism coded (I'm non-neurotyopical and also mountain this molehill), and there's a lot of rationalization about this in the article. Being a manager means accommodating neurotypical people, too. I agree that the author should think hard about whether management is the best place for them.
InsideOutSanta 21 minutes ago||
Yeah, I'm totally in favor of minimizing calls. It's easier to reference text, and I have more time to formulate my thoughts. But calls have value, too.

It's important to show a client that you care by being there in person, it's important to see your coworkers once in a while and ask them how they're doing.

dasil003 1 minute ago||
I'm all for fewer (and smaller) meetings, but there is a time and place for synchronous communication. Especially quick informal communication can be incredibly high leverage. Optimizing for heads down time is great if everyone knows exactly what they should be heads down on and thinks the same way, but that is not always the case.

If you call yourself a manager--which is a questionable role at startups--then you need to be optimizing for the entire output of the team. Rigidly declaring everything must be async text is no better than scrum by numbers.

Closi 1 hour ago||
This ignores the human side of things - people want relationships, empathy and sometimes just to be listened to.

A call with your manager where they say "yes, I agree with everything you said - go ahead and do it, I trust you" can mean much more than the same thing said in a text message.

iamalizard 36 minutes ago|
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ventana 5 minutes ago||
The majority of the software development related communications are trivial enough, emotionless, and do not require calls, but there are cases where one quick call resolves ambiguity much faster than hours of typing.

While I do know a feeling of dreading the upcoming call, especially if this is a call that I know won't be useful or rewarding for me personally ("let's quickly go through this infinite list of jira tickets", "let's do a quick round table"), it's important to remember that texting, including all sorts of corporate messengers, is one of the worst media to transmit emotions. Seeing another person's face while talking to them and their reactions to your jokes or struggles is sometimes as important as the message being transmitted. Of course, the camera must be turned on for this to work.

tyleo 1 hour ago||
Seems like a local maximum or organizing around an individual’s quirks.

Like all team building I feel like the fundamental question is, “what works for this group of people?”

Rather than “teams with/without calls is superior,” and slamming every team you work with into it.

Npovview 33 minutes ago|
There are many survival strategies in nature.

Richard Dawkins, coined the concept of extended phenotype which proposes that genes do not just build physical bodies, but actively shape the outside world to ensure their propagation.

jancsika 6 minutes ago||
I would counter that abstracting out several levels to cite Dawkins on a story about management styles isn't about management styles as much as it is about the friends you make along the way. :)
Npovview 4 minutes ago||
Patterns patterning - Zen mode. Beat this abstraction.
zkmon 11 minutes ago||
I write an email with extensive detail, but none of the recipients read a single line. They expect a call invite from me to read it out to them. People find it easier to hear things from other than read the same, if the option os hearing out is available. Q&A is another thing. You can avoid Q&A only if you are fully aware everyone's context. Otherwise questions sprig up from their own context which may not have been addressed in your email.
kaan0200 1 hour ago||
While I agree Scrum and agile are overkill and somewhat performative for the managers. I also like how OP gets that being an effective manager means understanding what the engineers are doing, as in, you rose through engineering into management, which is also a good thing!

But some teams, and some people, and some work is more effective with regular scheduled human interaction. People who need direction, guidance, or just to feel more physically connected with their work and team.

I'm so glad you are able to remove all "live human interaction" from your management style. I'd miss having a boss that felt like I was worth face-time. This feels like going too far for async work, I don't know how you wouldn't feel disconnected.

geoffbp 28 minutes ago||
Usually if you’re a manager, your job IS the meetings - or a large portion of it. You’re responsible for a remit and the performance of people inside the group and what is delivered. I think it’s unlikely that can be done of high quality without meetings, but ymmv
john_strinlai 1 hour ago||
>In the end, a 10-minute call can cost me several hours of focus. And I might spend the entire day thinking about it.

does anyone else have their entire day sidelined by a 10-minute call? is that common?

to me, it hints at something else, but i am not sure if i am the odd one out or not.

SoftTalker 1 hour ago||
Yes. I worked in an agile shop some years ago. We did daily stand-ups at 10:00. So, you arrive in the morning, and can't really get deeply into anything because stand-up is coming up. Then stand-up ends and you maybe have a sidebar conversation at the coffee machine, you get back to your desk and now lunch is coming up, so you look for some stuff you can do quickly, maybe read your email, check HN, whatever. After lunch you might get a few unbroken hours to really make progress on something, but half the time it's interrupted by code reviews, planning poker, or some other agile ceremony and the same sort of effect occurs.
ipsento606 52 minutes ago|||
> does anyone else have their entire day sidelined by a 10-minute call? is that common?

It's extremely common for me.

It really comes down to the point made in the article. If you have five or six calls already, the marginal cost of one more call is very low. If you have no calls, the marginal cost of one more call is very high.

iwontberude 58 minutes ago||
I used to be like that early in my career around 25. By now I am nearly 40 and that doesn’t remotely cross my mind. I’ve had to do so many social events that I am numb to it. It used to cause tons of anxiety/rumination though. When in doubt vape hella weed and you will forget about your worries. That seems to be the solution to all of my life’s problems.
avens19 1 hour ago|
English is vague, even when accounting for that fact. It's much more difficult to detect or correct misunderstandings over text.

My biggest issue with this concept is time. You write your wall of text, I see that you've failed to account for some factor, so I write my wall of text. You don't completely understand my wall of text and ask for clarification. Back and forth, asynchronously. In a call this can be resolved in minutes. Over text this could take days

ninalanyon 52 minutes ago||
I have the opposite experience. Phone calls almost always leave me feeling that something important has been left out. But there is no record so I can't re-read it to find out if I forgot or if it was just not mentioned. Luckily I rarely had to deal with such things because most of my work required written specifications and technical standards anyway, plus our teams were scattered in widely different time zones so the windows for live contacts were small.
xyzzyz 30 minutes ago||
It's very easy today to transcribe and summarize every call that you have.
ipsento606 54 minutes ago||
>It's much more difficult to detect or correct misunderstandings over text.

I really couldn't disagree more strongly. I think it's much easier to correct misunderstandings over text. In a spoken discussion, there is a high degree of temporal entropy - the longer it's been since you made a point, the worse my recollection of your exact point may be. Detail and nuance is lost. But if you write your point down, I can refer to it at any point without any real loss of information.

In my experience, it's relatively common for two people to leave a spoken discussion thinking they have a strong, shared understanding, and only much later do they realize that's not the case.

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