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Posted by mooreds 7 hours ago

Leave Me Behind(androidessence.com)
300 points | 225 commentspage 2
tharakam 5 hours ago|
I can relate to this article. My reaction to what is happening is also: "Leave me behind".

However, missing the joy of the old-school way of growing as a developer is not only the wrong reason, but also very dangerous according to Darwin.

Our customers don't care about how it is made after all, but they do care about long-term support, costs, and predictability, etc.

But I'm not sure whether we can say we made a real net positive progress in the industry. The whole thing is a big mess. In many cases, AI moves us in the same direction in turbo mode, making it not only messier and more expensive but also dangerous.

I tell them, "Leave me alone", as I see this mess as an opportunity if you think the right way, starting from the first principles.

GalaxyNova 2 hours ago|
Maybe our customers do care about how it's made.
Pfhortune 2 hours ago||
This really resonates with me, and reminds me of all that I've missed in the years since COVID and going full remote. There's magic in a room when a mob programming session results in a breakthrough that just can't ever be replicated remotely. Not sure I'd jump to sign up for a daily commute again, especially where I live now, an hour away from a major city without traffic, but I do miss that.
roxolotl 2 hours ago||
One of the things I really don’t understand about the “learn or youll be left behind” sentiment is it also comes from people saying “we’re building PhDs in a box!” It cannot both be the case that AI is something challenging enough to use that a current software engineer can’t learn how to use it and that the promises of these tools are fulfilled.
Philpax 1 hour ago|
You won't be left behind because you don't know how to use them - as you say, it doesn't take that much time to be at useful proficiency - but you will be left behind if you refuse to engage with them at all.
rglover 4 hours ago||
Just do it the way you want to do it and have fun [1] (I've recently started doing streams where I showcase a mix of AI + manual coding and why I think that's best).

The "powers that be" would prefer if you sideline yourself. Instead, pop a bird and say "thank you kind sir, but no."

[1] https://youtu.be/KqQpYgvrEqM?si=gfGCOqgmF4iy4077

charles_f 2 hours ago||
> “If you don’t learn how to use AI, you’re going to be left behind.”

I don't subscribe to that even to begin with. Learning "how to use AI" in a a dev workflow takes less than a month, just by practice. Assuming "how to use AI" refers to using agents, rather than just a more advanced auto complete, once you've made the couple of mistakes you can make a couple of times (mainly, leave the coding agent to do something too big for too long), you're caught up. Maybe it take a little more time to get the habits into your workflow.

Leveraging a LLM for coding is orders of magnitude simpler than the code it's writing, and the skills you need to review said code.

huqedato 3 hours ago||
We we all be left behind my friend. Soon enough.
gordian-mind 5 hours ago||
I don't think AI changed anything at all to the possibility of communicating between humans. This is a job that you've always been able to do alone in your cave.
righthand 5 hours ago||
Really? How do you learn how to code with out communicating with another human? Which man pages in a general Linux install will teach you all you need to know? Without communication you get no books, no StackOverflow, no-LLMs even. You were allowed to do it alone but we can't pretend humans communicating isn't how most of the available knowledge for your perusal came to be.
cryo32 5 hours ago||
It has. Some utter morons seem to run everything they receive and send through it at work.

I have a spreadsheet now of people I can't be fucked with.

ianhxu 5 hours ago||
Like the artisans/craftsmen in many places (especially Japan), hand craft will always carry enduring meaning — machines ultimately can't replace everything humans shape with their hands. But historically at least, they can replace over 99.9% of it.
ninjagoo 5 hours ago|
> machines ultimately can't replace everything humans shape with their hands.

What about 'machines' with hands and human-level cognition?

ianhxu 4 hours ago||
I don't have a quantitative way to argue this, but my intuition says that for humans to build something that matches human capability across every dimension would require a breakthrough at the physical level — and such a breakthrough may itself be bounded by the limits of humans as observers.

That said, this goal might itself be a non-goal. AI is going to be — or already is — more powerful than any individual human in many ways. But what my intuition points to is that humans will still have plenty of interesting work to do, like the author's example of handwriting code: it shifts from being scalable value creation into a form of craftsmanship.

riebschlager 5 hours ago||
I absolutely understand this sentiment. I've been working in tech since the late 90s and I have had MORE than my share of let-me-off-this-ride moments.

But this post (and the many I see like it) feels like giving up. And now's not the time for empathetic people to give up.

Technology is how we expand human capability. We are well within our rights to pick and choose how we interact with that capability. But it's starting to terrify me how it seems that the worst people in the world are more than willing to wield this power, while good people opt out. Billionaires are doing a remarkable job at making their vision of the future seem inevitable. Don't fall for it.

If more people aren't willing to help us steer this capability towards a better future, then we all know how this ends.

jcgrillo 4 hours ago|
> it's starting to terrify me how it seems that the worst people in the world are more than willing to wield this power, while good people opt out

Maybe it's just that the capability is bad. Adtech, for example, isn't something that anyone uses for good. They blow a lot of smoke about it--looking at you, Apple--but despite the "good-washing" it's all just the same extractive, invasive, dehumanizing business. Bad people will naturally concentrate around this capability. I know because I've worked with a few of them.

AI coding tools seem like they're engineered to undermine cautious, rigorous, and pragmatic engineering discipline. Of course the bosses want that, they see a short term path to massive output increases and nothing sounds better. They'll be cashed out by the time the mess needs to be cleaned up, that's someone else's problem. People who are predisposed to this kind of antisocial behavior are the ones who concentrate around AI tools. Rigorous, careful engineers who care about building maintainable systems that will outlast their tenure find less value in them.

I think it's more nuanced than

> Technology is how we expand human capability.

I think as a general statement about technology as a whole it's true. But do all technologies expand human capabilities? I don't think so.

riebschlager 3 hours ago||
In my mind, I would separate technology from its application.

Advertising tech and AI coding tools are applications of technology stacks that could have been used to create what you and I might agree to be "better" tools. I don't need to tell you why ad tech got created instead of something that is a net societal benefit.

At the same time, I would say that, yes, those applications do indeed expand human capabilities. The important nuance here is whose capability, and to what end.

All I am saying is that opting out of this, in whatever form that takes, hands your agency over to those who would use it to enrich themselves at the cost of others. I sincerely feel that decades of this type of capitulation is exactly how we got to where we are today.

jcgrillo 2 hours ago||
Could adtech really be used for something better? The capability is to precisely model users' emotional reward centers and then bombard them with content that targets those reward centers. Is there any way you can imagine this being used for good? Even if you do it in the least bad, privacy preserving way possible you're still messing with people's minds on a massive scale. Sure, that's a capability alright! I can't imagine a decent use of that capability, though. In my view it's one that should be prevented via regulation and treaties, much like weapons of mass destruction.

Unlike weapons of mass destruction, though, there's nothing to be gained by working on adtech. Let me unpack that a bit--a "good guy" can justify working on nuclear weapons because if he doesn't his country will be unable to defend itself when the treaties break down. There's no similar existential threat with adtech. If I choose to not work on that poison, I'm not leaving any advantage on the table. My agency in this situation is worthless. At least that conclusion is why I don't do adtech anymore.

I broadly agree with your bigger point though. To the extent that AI coding tools are useful it's important to explore their use, and evaluate whether they're any good. But if I'm in a company that's forcing their use, or putting up token use leaderboards, or any of the other horror stories we've been hearing about, you can be damn sure I'd get myself fired or quit. At that point the inmates are running the asylum, and there's no reason to stay.

mplanchard 6 hours ago|
The lack of humanity or ability to empathize with someone else’s feelings displayed in these comments, instead labeling the author’s personal experience as “main character syndrome” or “cope” demonstrates to me that the author may be correct that AI usage degrades the human experience.

It also is a great example of why AI has such a PR problem among normal people.

cryo32 6 hours ago||
Exactly this.

I’m forever getting asked for help by people who suddenly value the human experience when their machine god fails them.

Sometimes fuck ‘em because they devalued me first.

stego-tech 5 hours ago|||
Frustratingly, these attitudes have been around long before LLMs, and they'll continue to exist long after. To those individuals who have staunchly refused to broaden their horizons or empathize with their fellow man, these posts are direct threats to the wagons they've hitched themselves to, a challenge to their own narrow passions because they exist in a zero-sum environment where if even one person doesn't think and act like them, then clearly they're in the obvious wrong.

Conflating a preference for manual creation with opposition to the existence of a tool should be the single biggest signal flare that they are someone who will not argue with you in good faith. They're the ones who barnstorm every single one of these posts to denigrate the author rather than even attempt to empathize with their plight or evaluate the validity of their arguments. Surely the current cohort of HN commenters have seen this repeatedly in just the past five years as technical circles have jumped from cryptocurrency to blockchain to NFTs to LLMs to GenAI; every single one is a "must have", every single one something we "must learn or be left behind forever", and every single one refused to be evaluated on its merits in favor of simply embracing something new for its novelty.

I have given up debating with these people, because they do not wish for debate, they wish for dominance. I have better things to do with my time - as do you, as do all of us - than to give a moment of consideration to a viewpoint that relies on pithy quotes out of context and a reductionist narrative of history to justify their own superiority over others, in lieu of nuanced discourse.

Remember that it is not the obligation of the status quo to defend itself, rather the obligation belongs to those advocating changes to justify and defend their position and its benefits. In that regard, the pro-AI camp continues to come up hollow and empty.

mplanchard 3 hours ago|||
Wonderfully put, thank you. Ultimately, we’re supposed to be “engineers,” and that means (for our jobs) assessing tools and practices in terms of their net benefit on the products we create: there is no free lunch, and a thing’s downside is often proportional to its upside, so it seems wise to approach these things with caution and to have the kind of nuanced discussions that you note have been lacking.

I’d also hope, though, that as humans, we can recognize that tools do not exist in a vacuum, and that their effect on ourselves and society at large can be net negative even if they have a net positive effect on our work (whether due to something fundamental to the tool or due to the way it is being applied at scale). We can’t responsibly leave these discussions out of our analysis of the tool itself and its fitness for purpose, because we are members of society, and our adoption/use of the tool helps to determine that societal impact.

user43928 4 hours ago|||
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wiseowise 6 hours ago||
> instead labeling the author’s personal experience as “main character syndrome” or “cope” demonstrates to me that the author may be correct that AI usage degrades the human experience.

I’ll be the devil’s advocate and suggest that it might not be AI usage, but the technology attracting vilest scum of the Earth. It’s just they were staying mostly silent before, or wasted someone else’s time in different circles.

jvanderbot 6 hours ago||
Ok you're doing exactly what GP said, but in the opposite direction
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