Top
Best
New

Posted by garygao 3 hours ago

Launch HN: Chert (YC P26) – Twilio for iMessage(www.trychert.com)
Hey HN! We’re Gary and Ian, and we’re building Chert (https://www.trychert.com/), an API for businesses to send, receive, and automate iMessage conversations at scale. Check out our demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRdwvVxMMoI.

We originally started by building products on top of iMessage because the blue bubble interface, typing indicators, and reactions made agentic conversations feel more human than ones on SMS/RCS. These included a one-shot iMessage agent builder that reached 2,000 users in one week and an automated iMessage outbound sequencer that sent thousands of outbound messages per day.

The hard part is that iMessage does not have a native API like SMS/RCS. Sending and receiving iMessages requires a separate infrastructure that is difficult to set up and maintain, especially at scale.

As we talked to more companies, we realized that the highest-volume use cases for iMessage were not B2C agents or even sales. They were things like customer service, missed-call text-back, cart abandonment, and inbound lead capture in verticals like home services, DTC brands, and property management that drive the highest volume.

Furthermore, these companies often need additional support, such as custom infrastructure setup (e.g. contact card, area code, or local worker sessions), integration support with their existing SMS/RCS or voice agent systems, and a reliable way to scale their volume over time.

We built Chert to be an infrastructure layer for businesses to handle iMessage conversations at scale. Businesses can use our API to send and receive iMessages programmatically, route replies to humans or agents, and integrate conversations into the systems they already use.

To maintain stability across both outbound and inbound use cases, we built phone line health checks and SMS/RCS fallback systems. We also integrate with existing SMS/RCS systems, voice agents, CRMs such as Salesforce, HubSpot, and Attio, and tools like Slack. Finally, we let businesses reliably scale from a few test lines to hundreds of lines with automated line provisioning and a usage-based pricing structure.

We’re working with companies doing conversational messaging in DTC, sports programs, property management, and home services at the scale of hundreds of lines.

We’d love to hear your thoughts on this and other similar verticals where iMessage could be useful. All comments welcome!

29 points | 114 comments
morpheuskafka 18 minutes ago|
> We rotate sending identities, warm them gradually, and cap volume per identity per day to stay well below the heuristics Apple uses to throttle abusive senders. Anyone promising \"unlimited blast\" volume is one ban away from disappearing.

If you are violating Apple's policies, even if they cannot identify each account you create, can they not simply ban you as a legal entity from using their service, and then sue you for damages if you do so anyway?

It's no different from getting a ban from Walmart for trying to sell stuff inside their store.

> iMessage is intended for communicating with family and friends, and is not for conducting commercial activities or disseminating unwanted messages. iMessage misuse may result in service limitations.

zitterbewegung 16 minutes ago||
Why would I use this instead of using iMessage for Business that is the official way and is more robust and doesn’t violate ToS. If you get shut down I have to redo this setup using Apple ?
arrsingh 2 hours ago||
How does this work? Do you have an agreement with Apple to connect to their iMessage service? If you do then kudos thats a real differentiator.

However if you're hosting your own mac mini farm and running bluebubbles or other such things that are not approved by Apple what is your plan to handle the case where you're sending enough traffic through Apple's services that they disable / ban / block you?

If its the former then awesome but if its the latter then Im not sure I'd want to depend on your service knowing that apple could ban you at any time.

garygao 2 hours ago|
Apple wouldn't ban us since we're not doing anything that would qualify as spam or abuse. Even if that hypothetical event does happen, we have SMS/RCS fallback systems in place so no conversations get stopped or lost
roddylindsay 1 hour ago|||
As someone who has been in the messaging industry for more than a decade, it sounds naive to think that the litmus test for whether Apple will ban you is whether your traffic qualifies as spam. There is a long history of people trying to get around A2P spam filters / fees / traffic limits / onboarding / KYB requirements by running business messaging on P2P pipes, like you are doing. Some of it has been successful (see Twilio in the early days) but the industry has gotten a lot more sophisticated around this stuff and is not going to be receptive to your approach, which to me resembles the SIM farms that are a scourge when it comes to consumer fraud and abuse.
statements 20 minutes ago||
++ this is going to get banned the moment anyone from Apple sees it
ctoth 33 minutes ago||||
Even if your core offering disappears you can do the same thing that every other SMS-sending thing can do?

I also notice you answered the question, but not in the way anyone who needs to depend on this service would want to hear. So yeah you're doing the Mac Mini thing.

I'm with landl0rd. This service should not exist, you should feel bad for creating it, and every time I get a spam iMessage I will think about you and curse your name. Hope the money's worth it.

parhamn 26 minutes ago||
> anyone who needs to depend on this service would want to hear

Are you implying you'd be cool with it if it was Apple sanctioned? That's pretty silly.

mynameisvlad 19 minutes ago|||
Not even the worst reading of their reply would lend to that implication.

It’s pretty obvious that they meant that anyone who depended on their service would/should probably run away kicking and screaming if they were looking for a dependable service that will do what they claim to in the long term.

If they were Apple sanctioned, then at least you’d have some reassurance that the service won’t die randomly one day when Apple has had enough, à la Beeper.

ctoth 17 minutes ago|||
First, that's pretty obviously not what I said. Two things can be true. This is bad, and also if I were evaluating it for use in my business, it is obviously not something I can rely on.

But then just ...Um yes? I trust Apple to keep a handle on their iMessage network. Citation: having used iMessage for ~15 years. This would mean things like ensuring that I didn't get spam. Ensuring actual company identity (does anyone remember Messages for Business?) &c. This is pretty obvious and I am trying to understand your comment?

wewtyflakes 2 hours ago||||
Much of what you mention in your post seemed spammy; messaging regarding cart abandonment, etc. I aggressively label messages like that as spam, and I suspect others do too. I also suspect after blasting out messages like that, your accounts will get burned.
garygao 2 hours ago||
We work with our customers to make those messages consent-based and feel non-spam.
afavour 52 minutes ago|||
To be clear, no matter how it is phrased I’m going to report any kind of “you left this message in your cart” message as spam.
dgellow 1 hour ago||||
Could you elaborate? What does that mean in practice?

So far what I’ve seen from your service seems to be yet another attempt at blurring the distinction between bots and human interactions, which is generally used for spammy content

garygao 1 hour ago||
We're working to bridge the interaction between humans and bots so that automated conversations feel more natural and comfortable for the end user. In circumstances where the user can't reach an actual human (e.g. off hours support), they're often faced with bots over SMS/RCS that feel non-conversational and therefore can't support them in the right way due to interface. We're working on building agents that can more comfortably interact with users during those situations.
antiframe 19 minutes ago|||
What about RCS/SMS is the "wrong" way of helping the customer?
mynameisvlad 17 minutes ago|||
[dead]
joenot443 59 minutes ago||||
> Apple wouldn't ban us since we're not doing anything that would qualify as spam or abuse

Hmm, I wouldn't be so certain about that. Apple can ban you for whatever they like.

Banditoz 1 hour ago||||
> Apple wouldn't ban us...

To me this screams you haven't talked to Apple. Given how macabre they were towards Beeper Mini, I almost expect the same treatment for Chert.

Nonetheless, best of luck if you can pull it off.

aetch 50 minutes ago||||
…so you have a Mac mini farm
echelon 58 minutes ago|||
Did the YC interviewers ask you about this risk?

Did they ask you about a bigger market you can move into?

There's no way this foothold will last. You're going to get massacred.

Apple WILL ban you. You're not in some capricious walled garden. You're breaking and entering, and they'll destroy you.

There is nothing of value to build here. You should take the rest of the day off, then tomorrow, pivot entirely.

The folks here are trying to save you n years of hard work and wasted effort. Please listen. You're lucky to have a YC check. Apply it somewhere else, to some other problem. Preferably not in someone else's garden, and especially not in one where they shoot to kill.

bomewish 39 minutes ago||
Why would yc fund them given how obvious the risk is ? Esp since a Mac mini farm is capital intense.
mynameisvlad 13 minutes ago|||
YC is not some end all be all arbiter of what will succeed. Plenty of YC startups have failed.

https://ycgraveyard.iamwillwang.com/

https://startups.rip/

echelon 17 minutes ago|||
This is a "Launch HN" / "YC P26" thread, so YC funded them.

If YC didn't fund this particular idea, they funded the team to pursue some earlier idea that the team then pivoted from to try this one.

In any case, the team needs to pivot. This idea is lighting cash (and time) on fire.

liamcardenas 1 hour ago||
A few ideas for you guys: 1. Apple already supports iMessage for Business which is intended to cover the use cases you are targeting. But the set up process is ridiculous (for example: https://help.webexconnect.io/docs/wxcc-apple-messages-for-bu...). It would be amazing to have "Vercel/Resend for iMessage for Business" 2. If you go the send blue route, please support iMessage app payloads. Send blue doesn't support that
trollbridge 35 minutes ago||
Part of that is agreeing not to spam people and making it very clear you are legitimate business that is easy to contact.
zerozerotwo 47 minutes ago|||
The official api for iMessage is far richer than this and has things like forms, quick replies, various pickers, apps you can send in addition to text and images
garygao 1 hour ago||
Thanks for the suggestion! Yes, the setup process is extremely long and requires a lot of documents from the side of the business haha. It's definitely one of our goals to create the Vercel for iMessage for Business. Also, for the iMessage app payloads, that's an awesome suggestion! We can work on building that.
landl0rd 53 minutes ago||
I think this is bad and antisocial and you should shut it down. I like imessage because businesses cannot easily use it. The people who are most willing to pay for what you provide will do so because they can thereby annoy me in interfaces where other spammers cannot.

More practically beeper got blocked for this reason despite not even targeting commercial messaging.

pxeboot 11 minutes ago||
> I like imessage because businesses cannot easily use it. The people who are most willing to pay for what you provide will do so because they can thereby annoy me in interfaces where other spammers cannot.

I strongly disagree. If I need to chat with a business, an airline for example, why would I want to use SMS instead of iMessage? It’s the same app, but being able to easily send screenshots or photos and know they were received would be a huge improvement.

garygao 9 minutes ago||
Yes, this is what we believe! We just want to make existing conversations over SMS/RCS feel more natural and conversational!
garygao 10 minutes ago|||
Our goal behind this is to make it easier for people to conversationally interact with agents when they want to. Use cases like customer service or form-fill text backs would fit this. People are already getting SMS/RCS conversations in their iMessage inbox. We're simply making those conversations feel more human, conversational, and natural.
chatmasta 17 minutes ago|||
iMessage has official business accounts. Although I’m not clear if that’s what this company is using.
wilg 13 minutes ago||
Can’t be because business chat both sucks ass and uses grey bubbles.
paul7986 17 minutes ago|||
I agree this no bueno and anyone not in my contacts gets filtered out.

Why build a startup outside of making money from spamming community (mobsters) when its only annoys almost every human who receives spam calls, voicemails and texts? I mean even the founders and or those closest to them.. Im sure they love all the spam calls, voicemails (most recently being the annoying personal loan b.s.) and texts... right?

Im sure there's money to be made with spam outfits (mobsters) and more shaddy folks but again this isn't helping the issue that bugs almost every cellphone user out there. The government now is working on trying to fix this issue further, I bet there's more money there to be made in help fixing the issue then exborate it!

treme 49 minutes ago||
I think they should probably ignore you and continue working on it seeing as they got accepted into YC.
mynameisvlad 22 minutes ago|||
Being accepted into YC is not something that makes you or your idea invulnerable.

https://ycgraveyard.iamwillwang.com/

https://startups.rip/

zitterbewegung 14 minutes ago||
This is true but the point of YC is when that they will fund things that can fail it’s why VC exists .
rob 18 minutes ago||||
YC seems a bit different from I remember it back in 2007 when I first joined. They're pushing things like "GStack" now.

https://youtu.be/wkv2ifxPpF8?si=OHXgW92T_aZUbwpA

ctoth 22 minutes ago|||
Treme, on externalities:

> I think they should probably ignore you and continue working on it seeing as they got accepted into YC.

kneel25 25 minutes ago||
So the business is to trick people into thinking they’re speaking with a real person and therefore save money on real support
Calvin02 2 hours ago||
This doesn’t feel like something Apple would approve of. Are you concerned about them shutting this down?
rvz 2 hours ago||
That is the platform risk. Apple blocked Beeper.com for the same reason.
garygao 2 hours ago||
Apple doesn't inherently prohibit programmatic messaging. In fact, they actually developed Applescript for people to do that. What they are against is spam and abuse. Therefore, as long as we stay compliant and prevent spam, Apple is not necessarily against this.
evilduck 1 hour ago|||
How are your financial incentives aligned against sending spam? From this side, your words seem hollow and the typical viability of these businesses relies on sending spam.
frumplestlatz 2 hours ago|||
They developed AppleScript for people to do this individually, at limited scale.

Push notifications, attached to an application or website, and controllable by a user on that basis, are the solution for corporate messaging at scale.

This will get you banned. It’s not a question of if, but when. Users will hit the report spam button. Apple will shut you down.

garygao 2 hours ago|||
People don't report our phone lines to be spam because the use cases that we focus on are either mostly inbound (e.g. customer service, the user is the one who texts first) or warm opt-in outbound (e.g. form-fill text back or follow ups). Businesses want a better medium to communicate with their users and users want something more conversational and native to their messaging behaviors.
frumplestlatz 2 hours ago||
I genuinely can’t tell if this is naivety or willful ignorance, but at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter.

This is in direct violation of the terms of service, and Apple invests a lot of money in keeping iMessage clean of this kind of misuse.

They control the servers, the client, certificate provisioning, hardware identification, and user identification. They can trivially trace a registered account to the point of sale and the card and PII used to buy the hardware on which the account was registered.

You will fly under the radar for just as long as it takes to annoy enough of their customers that Apple brings down a massive ban hammer.

trollbridge 34 minutes ago||
I also can’t tell why these use cases can’t just use RCS.
antiframe 13 minutes ago|||
Elsewhere in the great they said they can't support the customer in the right way on RCS. I can't think of any technical reason for right vs wrong support, but I can think of deception as a reason (gaining trust through using a closed platform).
garygao 18 minutes ago|||
SMS/RCS is better for some use cases (e.g. transactional messaging, promotions, or order updates) while iMessage is better for others (e.g. customer service). iMessage is better for these use cases because it feels more natural to the users texting the number
trollbridge 15 minutes ago||
The only reason it feels more “natural” is because Apple prevents non-humans from being blue.

iMessage fully supports RCS.

zwily 1 hour ago|||
Are you telling me that the “report spam” button actually does something??!?!?!!!
striking 1 hour ago||
Your messages on iMessage are private by default, so "Report Spam" is the only way for Apple to receive the message for spam review.
frumplestlatz 2 hours ago||
This is definitely going to get banned, and as a customer of Apple’s, I will be glad for it.

I don’t need more iMessage spam.

garygao 2 hours ago||
We're not encouraging spam with this. We're mainly focused on existing conversational use cases that's currently done over SMS/RCS. They can be more human and expressive when done over iMessage.
john_strinlai 2 hours ago|||
>We're not encouraging spam with this.

what you encourage and what actually happens are two different things, though. gmail does not actively encourage spam, yet most spam emails i receive are from gmail addresses.

you have to actively fight against malicious uses, like spam. "not encouraging" is nowhere near enough.

what systems/processes/safeguards do you have in place to prevent abuse?

garygao 1 hour ago||
I agree. We're not completely self-serve right now, so we get to talk with each potential customer and learn about their use case before onboarding them onto the platform. This way, we can prevent use cases that involve spam or abuse.
john_strinlai 1 hour ago||
>We're not completely self-serve right now,

"right now", which implies that you plan to move to self-serve. and obviously manually checking in on each and every customer is not sustainable if you scale.

do you do periodic checkups now? hoping nobody lies during onboarding is risky, in an already-risky endeavor. have you thought about anti-abuse systems for when you go self-serve?

garygao 23 minutes ago||
We do run checkups and keep very closely in touch with our customers. We don't plan to go self serve in the near future and will most likely still have a very personalized onboarding process.
dubcanada 2 hours ago||||
For iPhone only users, so right off the bat your product is targeting 50% ish of a companies customer base. And the non iMessage people get a worse experience?
allthetime 46 minutes ago|||
In North America iPhone/android split is far from 50/50. I have 4 different apps running and the split is about 80/20 and has been for a decade. Internationally android is used at a higher rate - but that is decreasing as lesser economies play catch up.
garygao 2 hours ago|||
We have SMS/RCS fallback for non-iMessage devices. Also, in the verticals that we're targeting, the iMessage usage rate is a lot higher than 50%
aetch 1 hour ago|||
The last thing I want is an AI “thumbs up” or reaction over iMessage
chopete3 1 hour ago||
The ideas like this one are the rarest of the startup ideas you wish they don't become too successful as they are the target for exploitation by bad actors with ad dollars quickly.

They won't be able to say no to the money.

garygao 16 minutes ago|
We're clear on what we want to do and the future we are building towards, which is an agentic future where agents can better assist and interact with humans on a more emotional and personal level.
hotstickyballs 46 minutes ago||
Someone tag Apple in this thread and shut them down please
satvikpendem 1 hour ago|
Isn't this a direct violation of Apple's terms of service? You say you aren't spammy but at a certain point you will get banned. I'm not sure how YC funded this based on the platform risk alone but I guess these days they're throwing anything and everything at the wall.
garygao 1 hour ago|
We're helping to support conversational customer support agents that can help users better during off-hours and scheduling assistants that can interact with and understand user requests better than current models over SMS/RCS. This is definitely not just spam but instead the future of conversational 2-way messaging.
mh- 55 minutes ago||
I don't think anyone would be expressing the same level of concern if the conversations were only started/triggered by an inbound [to you] message.

Commingling things like cart abandonment and (actual, user-initiated) conversational messaging dramatically increases the risk that Apple takes action, from my point of view.

garygao 20 minutes ago||
Yes, I agree, which is why we try to make the opt-in clear. Use cases like form-fill text back or cart abandonment after the user has opted in and noted down their number are what we primarily focus on
More comments...