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Posted by prismatic 1 day ago

The Melancholy of Slaying Monsters(thereader.mitpress.mit.edu)
255 points | 124 commentspage 4
shevy-java 12 hours ago|
> This non-battle turned out to be a powerful experience, but its power stemmed mostly from the contrast between this and my other monster encounters.

This is more correlated with modern games. Modern games, at the least non-Indie games, dumbed down the gameplay. I am not saying such games are awful per se, but they are often very simplified to the 1990s era in many ways.

Many old RPG games are quite complex; or told as a story. The old Betrayal at Krondor was kind of like a novel - unsurprisingly since Feist wrote most of the content (save various adjustments made to the gameplay itself). Yes, graphics are bad, options are too few, but storyline-wise this was my favourite RPG. Another example would be "Realms of Arcania" (in german the three DSA games). Again, graphics today are not great, and playing it in english versus german is actually worse (one of the few games where german was better than english, by the way), but the gameplay options in the second part were nice. Part 3 was a bit different, and people critisized it, but I still liked that you would explore a "real" city while still having tons of options available. Other RPGs such as Baldur's Gate 2 are a bit different - DnD itself is IMO a very bad system for RPGs (takes too long to explain now, but just look at static alignment systems - that makes zero sense) and most of it was focused on hack-and-slay for power and items, so it has the same problems. But with mods you can kind of extend the story and add more storylines, thus having more options. So BG2 is not the best example here, compared to the other two; even before that, if you remember the old Ultima series, the NPCs kind of had a regular life, worked at specific times, went to work leaving their homes (and you could then pillage that) and so forth. A lot of the "why do I want to slay the cute monster", is driven by the underlying design. These games often try to dumb down everything. I noticed this first with World of Warcraft. To me these games never were interesting, as it seems to have been deliberately dumbed down. Many of those games today are more like a movie with a bit interaction in between. That's imo not quite a game anymore. There are some exceptions though; I liked little nightmares, but this is also a simplified, mostly linear gameplay. This problem keeps on coming back again and again. For some reason modern games hate complexity. Either humans became dumber, or designers wanted to simplify things.

card_zero 10 hours ago||
Thing is, stories are not gameplay. You praise "like a novel" but oppose "like a movie". I don't see much difference, and I don't want my game to be either of those things. I want it to have mechanisms, which I interact with tactically to bring out their emergent properties and exploit them. I want it to be a functioning, complex, living thing. So the mention of NPC behavior in Ultima is the right idea: you can understand how the NPCs work, and you can make use of your understanding for fun and profit.

Those mechanisms ideally also represent some fictional world, so there's something approximately similar to a story to be found there, but that's plenty enough story already. The rest is the player actually having adventures, spontaneously. There's some use for a story in providing a goal and an ending, but beyond that it's likely to put the game on rails, like a movie or a novel.

I mean, a linear game has a charm of its own. I also enjoy point-and-clicks. There are different genres of game. But I think an interactive organic open world is the true one.

ajuc 11 hours ago||
1. there's a trade-off between graphics/sound quality and story complexity. The better quality your voiced dialogue is - the more you have to pay for every additional line - so you tend to shorten it. Same with graphics - it's one thing to paint 8 frames of 32x32 sprites. It's another to motion-capture, model, texture, and process 100s of different versions of each character animations.

2. you're comparing unfairly (looking at the most complex examples from the past and comparing them to modern average). There were LOTS of very simplistic games in the past. You just don't think about most of them. Some genres went extinct because of how simplistic they were (see the dungeon crawlers where there was no dialogue or story whatsoever - just moving at 90 degree and hitting monsters) - it's the "old music was better" fallacy - you don't remember the old music that sucked.

If you compare most complex modern games they blow out of the water anything from the past. Let's say Baldur's Gate 3 or Dwarf Fortress or Minecraft compared to let's say Elite or Betrayal at Krondor.

sfink 1 hour ago||
> 1. there's a trade-off between graphics/sound quality and story complexity. The better quality your voiced dialogue is - the more you have to pay for every additional line - so you tend to shorten it. Same with graphics - it's one thing to paint 8 frames of 32x32 sprites. It's another to motion-capture, model, texture, and process 100s of different versions of each character animations.

There's another reason for this beyond those practical limitations. The imaginary world that these games inhabit isn't more or less complex depending on the bit depth of each pixel. The difference is made up by the player's own imagination. There's a tradeoff in the space of possibilities of what something could be -- if you give the player more data (better resolution, animations, whatever), then they're more constrained and less free to imagine their own version. One or the other isn't strictly better; stunning visuals provide one kind of value, uncertainty and suspense and filling in the blanks can bring another sort of value. (And both can destroy their own sources of value -- a high-definition but cartoonish boss image or animation can ruin the mood just as much as a botched reveal of some mysterious aspect of the setting.)

kmeisthax 6 hours ago||
> Contrary to Flowey’s advice, the game can be finished without a single kill, leading to a special ending, but this pacifist route is markedly more difficult.

...huh? This is very much not true. The most difficult[0] encounters happen on the Genocide route, in which you powerlevel like it's a normal JRPG until the encounters run out. Pacifist is only slightly harder than a "No Mercy" neutral run[1].

For the first two thirds of this article I was screaming "BUT WHAT ABOUT UNDERTALE". Toby Fox basically wrote the book on the moral quandries of killing monsters in video games, and this article does not do his work justice. It feels like the author wanted to briefly mention it at the end as a way to cap off the essay. And, while I haven't played Shadow of the Colossus, I suspect the inspection of that is about as surface-level as the tacked-on mention of UNDERTALE at the end.

I feel like I just read a high school English essay.

[0] Mechanically and emotionally.

[1] As in, a run in which you kill everything you see, but do not exhaust the kill limit.

debugnik 5 hours ago||
> in which you powerlevel like it's a normal JRPG until the encounters run out

Regular JRPG farming is not enough to trigger this route. You need to farm out every single area with enemies, starting from the very first one and never leaving one unfarmed, otherwise you accidentally exit the route even if you keep trying. You seem to know this but somehow pretend it's the normal JRPG experience?

As for Shadow of the Colossus, this article has flaws but its analysis of that game isn't one of them. It's very much what "everyone" knows about the game.

WolfeReader 3 hours ago||
I think "the pacifist route is more difficult than the default route" and "The pacifist route is the hardest way to play the game" are two different statements. The article said the first, but you're reacting as if it said the second.
aaron695 7 hours ago|
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