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Posted by NoRagrets 8 hours ago

Private Equity Bought America's Essential Services(rubbishtalk.com)
351 points | 426 commentspage 3
fredley 7 hours ago|
The people behind these funds are playing Monopoly IRL, and this in particular makes me very angry.

The UK high street has been a notable victim. Gradually, over the past couple of decades, company after company has been snapped up by PE. Not just shops, but restaurants too. Suddenly you realise that the 5 or 6 high street chains that were competing are now owned by the same fund. Quality collapses, prices rise, not just at one chain but everywhere. People stop going, the chain collapses, another empty unit, the fund moves on. It's easy to point at Amazon and internet shopping as having degraded the British high street, but there are several other factors, and PE is a big one.

TheOtherHobbes 7 hours ago||
The combination of PE extraction and "property values = rent we want to change, even if the property is empty" has been economically catastrophic.

PE is often just legalised larceny.

glitchc 6 hours ago|||
You're only thinking from a consumer perspective. When it comes time to sell a business, original owner wants to retire or what not, most small businesses have a hard time finding a buyer. This forces the owner to continue working beyond their time or face destitution. Having a market where PE can snap up a small business is a god-send for these owners. It meets a market need.
_DeadFred_ 5 hours ago||
Hard sell in a world where the average worker is expected to survive without a nice final buyout and told to budget/plan for that shit.
CalRobert 6 hours ago|||
You're well served if you want incredibly overpriced sweets at least.
c16 7 hours ago||
As a consumer, there are many non PE owned restaurants and pubs you can frequent. While you might not be able to change the game, you can absolutely vote with your wallet. The small guys will thank you.

Same for Amazon vs going direct to the manufacturers, which is more often than not, China.

mschuster91 6 hours ago||
> Same for Amazon vs going direct to the manufacturers, which is more often than not, China.

That comes with a bunch of problems. Taxes, import duties and import refusals are the biggest one. With Amazon, at least as long as it's sold or fulfilled by Amazon, no matter what, you are going to get the product in a reasonable time frame (1-3 days IME).

Shipping... depends. If you're in bad luck, the seller doesn't ship Fedex or DHL, but Yanwen or another one of the usual bunch of "aggregators" that bundle weeks worth of shipment to forward it to the US or Europe and unbundle the shipments there.

Assuming your product shows up at your doorstep, legally, you are now the importer and fully responsible for anything related to that specific product - say, an electrical appliance that sets your house on fire. You can't hold anyone accountable but yourself.

And finally, if there's defects, you only have to deal with Amazon. Free shipment back, done. With anything straight out of China, you are now responsible for shipments.

thecolorblue 6 hours ago||
PE profits sound like other companies opportunities. Unless there are barriers to entry not covered in this article, I would think other companies could move in, deliver a fire truck faster and at a lower cost, and at least take a portion of the market that is able to switch.
jeddawson 2 hours ago||
The purchasing process is the barrier to entry. Municipalities are required to run a request for proposal on anything over ~10k. The RFP gets awarded to a PE owned manufacturer that then takes 4+ years to deliver. The municipality is locked into the vehicles they don't have so a new market entry needs to simultaneously establish a track record that qualifies them for being awarded an RFP and be able to wait out the purchase lag. Not impossible, but easier said than done.
muddi900 5 hours ago||
The Capex and Opex requirements to do anything in the US are THE barriers to entry.

Nobody has that kinda cash lying around, banks can't justify such high liabilities, and VCs are not interested in "stable", businesses.

clearstack 5 hours ago||
look at the interest expense line on any PE-backed company 10-K. healthy operating business, absurd debt load. the business doesnt decline — the capital structure slowly kills it.
bonsai_spool 7 hours ago||
Setting aside the obviously LLM-generated headings (if not text), this is a serious problem. PE has purchased fire inspection companies in my city such that every company that needs these must contract with the same PE overlord no matter which of the previous 15 companies they used to work with.

The new PE overlord will do things like send you a bill for inspection after you inquire about their pricing ("Well, our guy was in the area so he took a look!") while billing you for gas from their home location.

This is disgusting on so many levels—no competition here at all, just oppression by those with a lot of money.

sanex 6 hours ago||
The theme I keep seeing in all of these problems about our economy is unfair access to debt. PE firms get a loan that you can't and then buy out your company? Giant megacorp get a loan for more than your companies value and make an offer you can't refuse. Billionaires live off loans instead of income and avoid paying income taxes. So many of our issues can be traced back to unfair access to debt. Too much cash in the system chasing returns. We need harder money.
forshaper 6 hours ago||
If you go after an entire market, they'll close ranks. If you go after specific business groups (such as REV), they'll probably be easier to divide and rule.
c54 6 hours ago||
Good article and discussion but I couldn’t find anything about the author? There’s no bylines or about page anywhere on the site.

Does anyone know about the source?

sbuttgereit 5 hours ago||
Check this out...

https://rubbishtalk.com/media-kit/

Whoever put this together couldn't even be bothered to compete the template they were using.

malfist 6 hours ago||
Because it's slop. It even starts the whole article with "It's not X, it's Y"
nargella 3 hours ago||
I think an unintended byproduct of prolonged cheap capital is an environment ripe with antitrust issues. I’m all for capitalism mentality but this feels like a logical extreme and is not good for the long term.

Other examples not mentioned: eggs, kids athletics, I’ve heard stories in fintech services as well

akudha 6 hours ago||
If the waiting time for a fire truck is 4 years, can't fire departments import from abroad?
adolph 6 hours ago|
An interesting aspect of this story is that America has an idiosyncratic approach toward firefighting vehicles that demands very large bespoke vehicles from a limited set of vendors [0] that are primarily used to bring a set of first responders to medical emergencies. [1] This philosophy carries on to other aspects of fire fighting like the very famous wooden ladders of San Francisco. [1]

Cost insensitive customers with bizarre business requirements, what could go wrong?

0. https://www.slashgear.com/1890538/why-american-fire-trucks-b...

1. https://www.pulsara.com/blog/why-does-911-send-a-fire-truck-...

2. https://sf-fire.org/our-organization/division-support-servic...

amazingamazing 7 hours ago|
Seems strange to me:

1. No one forced these people to sell. Is the idea that you can’t sell to an entity with more money? If you block that good luck with the world economy.

2. If above is ok is the idea that the new owner is inherently worse because they have more money, whereas as the smaller would be OK then where are the new entrants?

3. Going to the article it is clear enough. These industries just are not lucrative to begin with. PE buys them and raises prices, but this only works because people complain instead of starting rival business.

4. Somehow leaving money on the table in the form of a backlog is bad? Why don’t others start a business and take those orders? Why don't they? Not profitable or worth the hassle.

Well there you go.

Separately, American manufacturing just seems very uncompetitive.

consp 7 hours ago||
> but this only works because people complain instead of starting rival business.

This reads like fiction. When they corner the market it's of course trivial to just jump in and take that share. No way they will try to be disruptive to you or sue you to hell and back and of course the bank will loan you the pile of money to start a new company since there is no giant corporation to compete with who can squeeze you out in an instance.

amazingamazing 7 hours ago||
Your comment is the one that seems like fiction. You are saying PE is unbeatable? Per the article there is a backlog of orders. What is stopping one of the previous owners from creating another company and taking them?

Sue for what exactly? Of course they will be disruptive, that is what competing means.

DangitBobby 7 hours ago|||
> What is stopping one of the previous owners from creating another company and taking them?

... they sold the original business to retire??

amazingamazing 7 hours ago||
> ... they sold the original business to retire??

Conjecture unsupported by article

DangitBobby 6 hours ago||
Suggesting that the original seller could swoop back into the market is also conjecture unsupported by the article.
AndrewKemendo 7 hours ago|||
> What is stopping one of the previous owners from creating another company and taking them?

You will not find any investors.

The investors that want to invest in fire trucks already invested in the PE fund and will give them money over any new start

That’s the point

There’s no money elsewhere.

amazingamazing 7 hours ago||
How did the original businesses start to begin with? Also where is this information coming from? It isn't in the article.
AndrewKemendo 6 hours ago||
Usually from a loan or they bought someone out before the PE consolidation in that market really ramped up.

This is the insidious part: small markets that grow organically over about 10-20 years are specifically what PE investors look for because they are cash heavy but don’t have desire to expand.

So the owner gets 3M cash out for property worth 4M. PE bundles similar businesses (boba tea shops are a popular one) and then uses the net cash to get a loan to expand.

They expand, cut corners then cash out on the net profit and then sell the skeleton in the pink sheets or go bankrupt.

I’ve had to deal with investors and finance for almost 15 years now. My company was bought by a PE backed company and I knew fund owners

this is how the economy works

hnthrow0287345 7 hours ago|||
PE has a bad reputation, maybe for LBOs, maybe for buying up doctors' offices and retirement homes, and hospitals and making them objectively worse in terms of patient care.

My family doctor underwent that along with several of her local peers and got out from under it and started her own practice. I'm obviously not her only patient, so yes, heightening stress on caregivers by demanding more work to drive profits higher is justifiable of a bad reputation.

Leaving things like medical care, food, water, shelter at the mercy of for-profit dynamics leaves the possibility open that those services stop being provided because it is unprofitable at the expense of the population.

America is deciding it likes profit over its population.

goda90 7 hours ago|||
People aren't starting competitor businesses because the hassle has become astronomically expensive, also largely due to rent seekers[0]. You need a space, but real estate is absurdly inflated. You need trained employees, but education is absurdly inflated and also poorer quality for the baseline. You need to pay a living wage and give healthcare benefits to attract labor, but cost of living and healthcare are skyrocketing.

Ultimately the influence of rent seekers has grown and the category of people who can take risks by starting a business was the first to collapse, leaving only the wealthy who don't care and the people who can't risk their own survival.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

_DeadFred_ 5 hours ago||
Then there is regulatory capture in some markets. In this case:

You need a street legal product, which takes certification You probably need multiple firefighter associations, which takes not only meeting criteria but politicking with associations (don't know about firefighters but some associations are themselves captured and limit approval to their friends/connections).

DangitBobby 7 hours ago|||
If you own a business and wish to retire, your options are pretty much to sell, pass it on to someone, or dismantle it. I don't know how this is even a question really. Where in the article or the comment section is anyone saying they shouldn't be selling?
a4isms 7 hours ago|||
Two connected anecdotes:

1. In the 90s, I had a struggling one-man Mac ISV, and would do gig programming on the side. I did a lot of work for boutique investment banks, and also for a "consulting" firm that did about 75% of their business with the finance industry. The owner of that firm praised me, but didn't like that if my business took off, he'd lose me.

"What would it take to get your commitment to this firm?"

50%

"Where will you get the money to buy half my company?"

A loan from the firm?

When the dust cleared, the business loaned me the money to buy in, and I paid it back with 50% of my profit sharing payouts. This is not some weird financial alchemy, a lot of partnerships are run this way.

———

2. My Duathlon racing buddy was a mold-maker, very specialized and good at his trade. He worked for an elderly entrepreneur who had built his mold business up over decades. Said entrepreneur sent his own kids to university to become "professionals."

What to do about succession when he was ready to retire? My buddy literally photocopied my own arrangement, bought 50% so the business would have a successor it could count on, and bought the remainder when the founder retired. He is now a comfortably wealthy automotive sector entrepreneur.

———

The huge LBOs in the news always seem like space-age deals, but little LBOs for succession purposes are remarkably common.

amazingamazing 7 hours ago|||
Your comment is entirely conjecture. Even if we assume it is correct, no young person is creating similar businesses? If so that’s the root cause, not PE, since the alternatives would be all of these businesses shut down anywhere per your reasoning, backlog increase and the remaining businesses increase prices anyway.
DangitBobby 6 hours ago||
This is a comment section. Much of it is conjecture. You are making (implicit) conjectures that there are no systemic causes of these sales to PE so you can place blame on the sellers instead of the looters and pillagers themselves.
jmyeet 5 hours ago||
> 1. No one forced these people to sell.

Why do we need antitrust laws? Why do mergers need government approval? Or are you a libertarian who believes in unfettered capitalism?

Where does it end? What if I threatened you with violence to sell your business? Is that OK? You might correctly say "that's illegal". If so, does that stipulate we do need laws? How far can coercion go while still being legal? What if I also own your key suppliers? What if you run a veterinarian practice and I jack up the price of all your meds, radiological film, etc if you don't sell? What if I own the major pet insurance providers and decide that your practice, if you don't sell, is no longer covered by my insurance?

> 2. If above is ok

It's not.

> 3. Going to the article it is clear enough. These industries just are not lucrative to begin with

They're engaged in anticompetitive behavior but on a local level so it tends to escape scrutiny. Unfortunately, if you dog is sick and you like in Cincinatti, you don't really have the option to go Reno where there's (for now at least) a cheaper option.

This is all just rent-seeking behavior. Nothing about this is productive. The people who engage in this should be treated the same way profitters are in wars and natural disasters, which historically hasn't been a fine or legal sanctions. I'll put it that way.

> 4. Somehow leaving money on the table in the form of a backlog is bad?

That's what rent-seeking is. It's unproductive extraction of wealth by removing all other options.

Wait until PE comes for your ISP and suddenly a 1gig fiber connection is $300/month. What are you going to do then? Start your own ISP? Good luck with that.

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