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Posted by jjp 7 hours ago

EU fines Temu €200M for allowing sale of illegal products(www.bbc.co.uk)
251 points | 184 commentspage 2
0cf8612b2e1e 5 hours ago|

  … which found that a high percentage of chargers purchased through Temu failed basic electrical safety tests. It also found that a high proportion of baby toys posed safety risks, containing chemicals above legal limits or featuring small detachable parts that presented suffocation hazards…
Boring. I can probably find the exact same on Amazon. From the headline, I was hoping the list of illegal products was going to be something like enriched plutonium, RPGs, Lawn Darts, etc
mfld 3 hours ago|
Maybe for marketplace articles shipped from outside the EU. It's not legal, so Amazon will surely have a close look (for directly sold items), as well as any company shipping from within the EU.
BrtByte 3 hours ago||
The fine seems less interesting than the compliance deadline
jordiburgos 6 hours ago||
Why there is a difference between selling and allowing to sell? If the product is sold in your site, you must be responsible of it.
madeofpalk 6 hours ago||
Isn't this being held responsible for it?
SoftTalker 5 hours ago|||
Yes, this "section 230" treatment of online platforms is at the core of why social media and the internet in general is full of garbage.

If you sell something on your site, or allow users to post something on your site, you should have some liability for the consequences.

another-dave 6 hours ago|||
they are responsible for it, but it's useful in reporting to differentiate between "fulfilled by" and "bought through"
hydrogen7800 6 hours ago||
> If the product is sold in your site, you must be responsible of it.

But this is an internet store.

aDyslecticCrow 1 hour ago||
So we should give up regulating them? All stored are internet stores.
kvgr 6 hours ago||
I am very pro free market, but Temu with data harvesting and selling illegal projects should be banned together with tiktok...
victorbjorklund 4 hours ago||
As if Amazon don’t harvest data or have illegal products on its marketplace.
hulitu 3 hours ago||
Amazon is better: it lobbies the EU. Why do you think Temu got fined ?
thesmtsolver2 5 hours ago|||
Doesn’t TEMU have CCP ties? Free market is for businesses and individuals and foreign govt entities should not unfairly benefit from a free market.
nickff 5 hours ago|||
Every major PRoC company is required to have CCP ties; in addition to 'paying for facilitation' by local officials, a certain percentage of their employees must be CCP members.
cm2012 5 hours ago||||
All big companies in China are partially run by the CCP. Just how it works there.
tsol 1 hour ago||||
Last I heard the US govt is taking equity in some private industry too.
thenthenthen 5 hours ago||||
Ties as in pay tax to ccp. In China Temu is called pinduoduo (拼多多)and you can buy some wild stuff there, the regulation on mainland seems also pretty lax i mean.
frogcoder 4 hours ago||
Sorry, ties, as CCP party committees inside private firms. And in case of Temu, it also has a data-sharing agreement with People's Daily [1], a CCP controlled media group.

Just image having a mandatory political party inside every American corporation which the board has no control over.

1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/05/01/...

kvgr 5 hours ago||||
Everybody in china that gets big has CCP ties. No way around it. Their car manufacturers are all propped up by government.
guilhas 3 hours ago||
Dont US law makers have stocks in the companies they regulate? Without term limits? And Tesla even gets paid per car sold

America is not China, but how close is it getting?

miohtama 3 hours ago|||
Doesn't Bezos have Trump ties?
ale 6 hours ago|||
I’d start with the immense packaging waste and shameless overconsumption tricks that are banned in basically any other industry.
holistio 6 hours ago||
If you're "pro free market, but", you're not pro free market. That's fine, but you might want to reevaluate whether you're actually for it.
lokar 6 hours ago|||
Free markets can have strong rules. No other than Adam Smith said they are needed.
hilariously 4 hours ago||
I would even go further and say that the term really has to be almost "equal" - equal access, equal rules, equal legislation or the market isn't really free.
s_dev 6 hours ago|||
The US and China have standards as well and bodies to regulate them. Regulation vs Free Market debate isn't a binary issue and is a spectrum.
pacman1337 4 hours ago||
The past making quality clothing was difficult, cutting it right, sourcing the right patterns designs materials, stitching it took care etc. In our world making quality clothing should be easy with all the technology but what we see in bad quality that you wash a few times and it is trash. It is uglier designs than in the past etc. It makes no sense. It is like a conspiracy where people don't want to sell quality clothes at a fair price. Like all companies got together and decided we will sell crap clothes at cheap prices and good clothes at extortion prices. There is zero correlation with actual costs.
rahimnathwani 25 minutes ago|
Just go to Uniqlo.
manoDev 6 hours ago||
Isn't there some kind of law to disallow imports without a CE / RoHS / etc label? Why allow it to enter the EU, and then fine the seller afterwards?
TazeTSchnitzel 5 hours ago||
With a few exceptions, those labels do not mean that the product has actually been tested or actually complies with the standard. They are a self-certification: CE means “I promise this complies with European norms”, but the entity deciding to print that on a product may not be honest. Small fly-by-night operations on the other side of the planet have little incentive to be honest.

Generally speaking, international direct-to-consumer e-commerce is a problem for trying to enforce these kinds of rules. The whole model of checks at the border works well for massive bulk shipments, which not only are few enough in number that customs have a chance of doing a proper job on them, but there's also a commercial importer taking a large financial risk on the shipment and therefore 1) having an incentive to ensure they import something safe to begin with, 2) they can be practically fined/sued by authorities if they screw up. But when you have myriad tiny operations selling direct to consumers, the consumer is the importer, and there's no local representative for the manufacturer that you can actually sue. It's effectively a quite lawless area. Being able to do direct imports is an important freedom, and this kind of laxity is inevitable, but it's understandable the EU wants to do something about the flood of poor-quality goods that are terrible for fair competition, the environment, and health and safety.

MobiusHorizons 6 hours ago|||
Are you suggesting opening every package to check for a CE? I think fining after the fact is how those laws are enforced.
GJim 6 hours ago|||
> Are you suggesting opening every package to check for a CE?

In the old days, when an importer purchased Chinese goods in bulk and resold them, import checks were commonplace.... AND the importer was legally responsible for paying import duties and selling goods to the public that were legal and met safety standards.

Now that any individual can order direct from China (with cheap subsidised postage!), the floodgates of untaxed and dangerous shite are open.

One solution is to address the subsidised postage that makes this state of affairs possible.

lokar 6 hours ago||
Require the recipient affirm the package meets all legal requirements, and personally assume liability for any violation.
victorbjorklund 4 hours ago|||
So hold the consumer liable for laws meant to protect the consumer?
miohtama 3 hours ago||
Holding a consumer liable for the broken crap they order would be just, but political infeasible as long as there is someone else to blame.
mc32 5 hours ago|||
That’s unworkable: asking a recipient unfamiliar with producers to know whether producer is reputable or not in advance and if the producer is unscrupulous you expect every affected buyer to follow up or be in violation of importation laws?
lokar 5 hours ago||
If you are not sure, buy from within the EU from an importer who deals with this.

The old system of spot inspections worked because most import volume was from known, repeat importers.

victorbjorklund 4 hours ago|||
So consumers should just pay for a random import company to ”pinky promise” that it is safe? It is well known that most of the crap that is CE hasn’t actually gone through a million euro testing program. It’s just a stamp. And if something happens then well that LLC goes bankrupt (but odds are low)
lokar 1 hour ago||
License importers? Have them audited, post a bond, etc?
mc32 5 hours ago|||
I think thats asking much from people some of whom easily get scammed by phone banks in Eastern Europe, India etc. many people will not put in that effort.
manoDev 5 hours ago|||
I see, the issue is those parcels are mailed directly, not from a logistics operation already inside EU borders.

In my country the government is pushing those companies to have local warehouses. So if items are bulk imported by the marketplace, in theory it should be easier to inspect.

s_dev 6 hours ago|||
The fine is the application of the law. Would be like getting arrested and demanding to know why the authorities aren't getting involved.
MichaelZuo 6 hours ago||
I think the parent is questioning how the fine relates to removing the goods from circulation?

Or is the intention of the law to allow for an unlimited number of supposedly illegal goods to circulate freely within the EU, just fined appropriately?

dwroberts 6 hours ago|||
They add fake labels, this has been happening for a long time
amelius 6 hours ago||
Yeah they have the CE mark, but it means "Chinese Export". You can recognize it by the C and E being closer together.
leni536 6 hours ago||
There is no such thing as "Chinese Export".

https://cemarkingassociation.co.uk/latest-news/ce-marking-an...

QuantumNomad_ 5 hours ago||
There is such a thing. The Chinese Export one was specifically created to intentionally be confusable with the real CE marking (Conformité Européenne). And it works exactly as intended. People see “CE” and think it’s the real CE one but it’s the intentionally confusable one.

https://www.kimuagroup.com/news/differences-between-ce-and-c...

https://starfishmedical.com/resource/conformite-europeenne-m...

lozenge 1 hour ago|||
It really isn't. There is no official "Chinese Export" mark. And it's legal to use the real CE mark just to indicate that you (the manufacturer) believe the product complies with European regulations. Some manufacturers might not know or care what it means and just put it on anyway. And some manufacturers might put a version with the incorrect dimensions on their product. It still doesn't mean "Chinese Export".
looperhacks 4 hours ago||||
This gets parroted all the time, but I have never seen any proof that this is actually true. It's always this one image comparing the two, but never any real example. It's just unreliable sources copying from each other.
okanat 3 hours ago|||
There is a conspiracy theory for everyone it seems, even for the educated. No there is no "legitimate" Chinese-mandated CE that can ever be allowed in EU. It would completely destroy the trade relationship and cause Chinese underwriter labs to be completely banned from ever testing for CE marks.

HOWEVER, there are a lot of fake CE marks printed by dodgy companies who make the same shitty products that gets imported via Temu. They are already in the business of selling contraband and dangerous factory seconds, no need for conspiracies to give a legitimate twist to their contraband business.

pixel_popping 3 hours ago|||
It's not enough, I routinely order things with obvious fake labels or sometimes things I know ahead are clearly not CE compliant, and most packages can't be open due to the large amount, until we have robot warehouses, I don't think is solvable.
saaaaaam 5 hours ago|||
Who says the products don’t have fake CE labels stuck on? A CE label does not - as far as I can tell - have any security features.
okanat 3 hours ago||
Yup, CE is self-declatory. To prove it, you need to actually check the documentation from the manufacturer's web page. Usually there are numbers for individual tests on the product.
PowerElectronix 3 hours ago|||
Laws are as good as they are enforced. With millions of widgets entering every day, most being very low cost, there's very little point in going one by one checking if they comply.
lefra 6 hours ago|||
For electronics without wireless functionality, it is allowed to self-certify. Anyone could also print whatever label they want on their products illegally (i.e. without doing the required paperwork to self-certify).

The policemen controlling imports don't have the competency to check for faults, so we get this situation where specialists regularly sample the products, and heavy fines are issued to the importer.

galangalalgol 5 hours ago||
And for electronics with wireless, they still just ignore everything. No FCC ID, don't even have any silkscreening on the pcb or markings on the ICs. Nothing gets enforced.
victorbjorklund 4 hours ago||
How would it be enforced? It is around 16 000 000 packages per day.
pixel_popping 3 hours ago||
Robots is the only way.
pickleballcourt 4 hours ago||
I’m curious if its actually difficult or trivial for Temu to enforce
ninth_ant 4 hours ago|
It’s not simply difficult, it’s an existential threat to their current business model.

Unless I’m missing something obvious, enforcing regulatory compliance from the army of hustlers that is their vendor market would be expensive or impossible.

Scroll_Swe 2 hours ago||
Good, keep it up. China is literally poisoning us.
theragra 5 hours ago||
Temu also should be fined for predatory marketing. Not sure if laws exist, but dark patterns are everywhere.

I try to a avoid Temu, but they have some good traits, too, like quick and convinient shipping.

hulitu 3 hours ago|
> Not sure if laws exist, but dark patterns are everywhere.

I bet you never heard of Microsoft or Google.

j0ba 4 hours ago|
EU is a fine organization
f6v 4 hours ago|
Feels like the EU is always going to find something to fine you over. Think of it as a tax. The purpose is compensating for the lack of notable domestic tech giants.
Ylpertnodi 4 hours ago||
And stopping Temu from passing on junk, as in this case.
woadwarrior01 2 hours ago|||
Amazon passes on the same junk, albeit at 2-5x the price.
jeppester 2 hours ago|||
That's the thing with these fines. 19/20 times they make a lot of sense. But even so, there will be people saying "but why not this other org" to which the answer is "Yes! Hand out more fines", not "it's unfair, so just let everyone break the law".
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