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Posted by xyzal 6 hours ago

Is AI causing a repeat of Front end's Lost Decade?(mastrojs.github.io)
186 points | 179 commentspage 4
emodendroket 4 hours ago|
I mean, maybe it was a "lost decade" from the perspective of frontend developers, but I can't say I'm nostalgic for an age where everyone is handrolling everything from legacy browser support to responsive designs and I'm hoping they have a good understanding of all these things because the average page would be much worse than it is with everyone using these libraries.
Zababa 5 hours ago||
The part on the Bauhaus movement is weird, and I'm not sure I agree about how the author thinks about users.

>What did previous generations of craftspeople do when everyday goods and buildings suddenly could be mass-produced by industrial processes? One reaction was to copy the style of old, and make the industry crank out widgets and buildings that at least looked like they were handcrafted.

Is this a reaction by craftspeople? I don't think it is, I think this was what industry people did?

>Countering this trend of historicism, an alternative approach was developed by the Bauhaus movement of the early 20th century. Instead of pitting factory workers against craftspeople, their stated goal was to have them work together, and redevelop the arts and crafts with industrial manufacturing processes in mind.

From what I understand the Bauhaus movement has/had a huge influence on modern architecture, which people tend to like less than traditional architecture [1]. It feels weird to have that followed by "Caring about quality and the user".

>The industrialization enabled lots of cheap plastic products, designed by people who didn’t take the time to think how they would be used and by whom – yet good industrial design is still a thing.

>And software like Wix and Next.js enabled the creation of lots of websites that load terribly slow and are not accessible – yet there are still practitioners of the front of the frontend out there.

I think the author really really really underestimates how important is it that something is "cheap". I personally like a lot having the option to use cheap and relatively good stuff, or pricier and better stuff, for most things.

This is a bit stretching the definition of "accessibility" but, I think in a way price should be thought as part of accessibility. If we consider that it's important that websites work well on slow networks, partially because not everywhere in the world has access to good network, partially because good networks cost money ; then I think we should consider that while a good website beats a bad website, sometimes a bad website beats no website. Sometimes a "cheap plastic product" means someone that can't buy the well designed product can still buy a product, and get started in a hobby.

This is pretty bad news for craftsmen I think, but as a software engineer that is very happy to be able to get into crochet or photo or cyanotypes or pottery or hiking for relatively cheap, I can't help but try to see the other side of software getting cheaper.

[1]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S026427511...

23david 5 hours ago||
I think it's more likely to cause a lost Decade of people not going into CS or tech due to lack of entry-level jobs. Maybe next time there's a boom and the pendulum of the power dynamic between management and labor swings more towards the workers, tech workers will unionize or organize better. I think overall it will benefit the industry because these boom and bust cycles for employment are just not healthy.
Traubenfuchs 5 hours ago||
There is no guarantee that there will be a boom again. Some jobs disappear. Maybe we'll really only need a handful of elite engineers who continue advancing the foundational tools we use (kernels, databases, hyperscale low level cloud products, drivers, etc.) and the rest of "programmers" and "software engineers" will be replaced by "prompt engineers". With a new generation mostly unable to read and reason about source code.
alex_suzuki 4 hours ago||
But how will the current crop of “elite engineers” be replaced, when they inevitably age out?
Traubenfuchs 1 hour ago||
There will always be some nerds left with brains so big they only scratch their itch if they are advancing performance critical v8 code in pure assembler. But the bar will rise for that to be something you get money for…
jazz9k 5 hours ago|||
Unionized workers are also losing their jobs in this economy.

Unions are, by nature, anti-progressive. They would rather use 15 year old technology, then replace workers and allow efficiency.

This will never work in the tech industry.

reaperducer 5 hours ago||
I think it's more likely to cause a lost Decade of people not going into CS or tech due to lack of entry-level jobs.

That could be a good thing, or a bad thing.

Maybe it will push more people into medicine, science, art, or other worthwhile careers.

Or maybe they'll end up lawyers, SEO experts, or venture capitalists.

It could go either way.

mariopt 5 hours ago||
I’m using AI to create UIs and I find myself having more time to think about UX rather than CSS. It actually gave me “time” to quickly test design ideas an implement minor details.

I’m actually building better UIs just because it became less time consuming to do so.

There is just a super noisy minority that spams the internet with slop so bad that no one can take their product seriously.

Rover222 3 hours ago||
I'm allegedly a fullstack dev, often working on fullstack features, but I haven't had to think deeply about much on the frontend all year. 90% of my thought/work goes into backend work. The AIs just handle the FE stuff easily based on our existing patterns. Not saying it's perfect or can't be improved, but it pretty much always "just works" perfectly well enough.
barnabee 4 hours ago||
Front end is mostly an enshittified disaster hiding behind "UX" and "design principles".

If LLMs help me never use a front end owned/dictated by a corporation again it'll be no bad thing, regardless of the quality of the code they write.

panny 3 hours ago||
>writing all code by hand

This is now officially a pet peeve of mine. I don't write code "by hand" I write code "by brain." A craftsman who does something "by hand" actually needs manual skills to produce that carved wood thing. Even if you know what you want and know what it looks like, you need skill with your hands to make it happen.

Software is not like this. I don't need typing skill, the IDE autocompletes most of it for me. I think about what I want and it becomes reality. If you were using a bare text editor and typing out getters and setters your whole career, sorry, you were just doing it wrong. No wonder you love AI.

culebron21 5 hours ago||
I worked mostly on frontend in 2012-16, in plain HTML+CSS, and then quit, because React was required everywhere, and I tried and hated it.

But before React, I don't recall frontend as very inspiring and joyful.

It was fun to see your work immediately on the screen. I did apply skills and had to solve some weird situations. I could optimize our CSS with OOCSS approach (later used in Bootstrap) -- only to complaints -- semantics! too many classes! (my trump card was that their commits contained +200 lines of CSS, while mine mostly had 0 -- and our CSS was already bloated into several megabytes).

But this was a dead end. I tried making tools to find out unused styles, to automate some patterns -- like click a button and load some content over Ajax. But the guys, who copy-pasted code with dumb solution to this, got 2-3x more tickets closed. I proposed a tool to make screenshots of pages and diff them to search for regressions, but the response was it's heavy RnD, we're not a research institute, we got to ship the next popup tomorrow, etc.

Nobody gave a shit much earlier.

Npovview 5 hours ago||
if you value intelligence (and likely income from that intelligence) above all other human qualities, you're gonna have a bad time. -Ilya.
sublinear 5 hours ago|
> frontend used to be a highly specialized skill, requiring knowledge of semantic HTML, CSS, the differences of various browsers, accessibility, progressive enhancement, network performance, interface design and user testing – to just name a few.

It still is!

> To distinguish what they’re doing from what “frontend” has become, practitioners of this arcane art nowadays often refer to it as the “front of the frontend”.

I have never heard this term before, but I'm sure someone will point me to the bullshit influencer who came up with it?

Frontend frameworks are really just for web apps and most frontend devs are familiar with several. If they cannot also write a web page from scratch, they're not really a web dev. This is not up for debate. If you hire someone for the role, you need them to handle the work. AI is not going to help you here when it gets into the testing and bugfix phase.

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