Posted by Hasnep 2 days ago
Nix is a language with built-in support for URI literals typed as strings [1], which is a source of confusion and edge-cases, and I believe the feature is now discouraged in general use.
[0] https://roto.docs.nlnetlabs.nl/en/stable/reference/language_...
[1] https://nix.dev/manual/nix/2.34/language/string-literals
I could, for example, imagine using roto in some of my current work on svg and visuals generation. In which case I'd be greatly helped with literals like "colors", "vec2", "angle" etc. I'd imagine that as long as other literals which I don't need, like an IP address, aren't in the way, it's still greatly beneficial to have a large lib to pick and choose from, around.
Something like EDN readers seem saner to me where I wrap the value in something that denotes the function to use to parse the value. If I do “192.168.1.0/24” I get a string literal, if I do #cidr{192.168.1.0/24} then it hands the value off to the cidr custom literal.
That’s my 2 cents, I hate when things implicitly modify my literals.
https://github.com/py2many/static-python-skill/blob/main/ass...
Places where we would benefit the most from this is in the Games and UI space. I know game devs have already started by integrating lua, like with mlua [1]. In the UI space i think Makepad is the best example of a team making a dedicated DSL that can be hot-reloaded [2].
I think we need more of this! Go make a DSL next time you feel crushed by the weight of compiling Rust crates!
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[0] and by my research i mean Claude. this is a great blog with many posts about improving compile times https://nnethercote.github.io/
[1] https://crates.io/crates/mlua . I don't have a reference for a project using it though so please reply if you know of one!
The syntax is of course very Rusty, which is cool. However, a sort of obvious question comes to mind - what is the benefit of this over just writing rust, then? Just because the compile times are shorter?
EDIT: should mention I understand why embedded scripting languages exist, having embedded Lua many times. And I love a lot of these features, but to me having an embedded scripting language should simplify the language/API surface area instead of mirroring it almost 1:1. That's what I'm a bit undersold on.
In our setup, the "sources" are more like configuration. Whereas the core, the business logic, is more like code.
Typically, one would configure with e.g. YAML. As we can see in many projects, that have a DSL, in yaml (k9s, GitHub actions, ansible, etc). But, rather than inventing another DSL in yaml, we realized we do need some logic, something very poorly expressed in yaml. And we went for Lua.
Long story to say: if your config typically has some logic in it, it makes sense to go for an embedded scripting language to provide it, rather than building it into the core domain, or to invent yet-another-yaml-amalgation (yayamla?)
The fact that Roto gets compiled at the runtime of the Rust application is very important. That means we can ship a binary and still allow scripting.
We also believe that Rust is too complicated for our use case in some respects, we're trying to make something simpler. Our target audience for Rotonda is not people who necessarily know Rust. We can never be as simple as Lua because of the static typing, but we're trying our best.
And finally, we don't have to ship the entire Rust toolchain with our application. Roto is fully embedded into the binary with no external libraries needed and that's quite nice in practice.
When you made Roto what kind of workloads were you optimizing for? How are you guys benchmarking performance?
I ran a quick benchmark based on my recent work (Used AI for the code here): ``` fn sum_scalar(n: u64) -> u64 { let total = 0; let i = 0; while i < n { total = total + i; i = i + 1; } total }
fn sum_list(xs: List[u64]) -> u64 {
let total = 0;
for x in xs { total = total + x; }
total
}Rust benchmark.rs ```
use std::time::Instant;
use roto::{List, Runtime};
fn main() {
let rt = Runtime::new();
let mut pkg = rt.compile("bench.roto").unwrap();
let sum_list = pkg.get_function::<fn(List<u64>) -> u64>("sum_list").unwrap();
let n = 1024;
let iters = 50_000;
let xs: List<u64> = (0..n).collect();
let t = Instant::now();
for _ in 0..iters { sum_scalar.call(n); } // adds 0..n with a counter
let scalar = t.elapsed();
let t = Instant::now();
for _ in 0..iters { sum_list.call(xs.clone()); } // adds the SAME 0..n from a List
let list = t.elapsed();
println!("sum_scalar (counter): {scalar:?}");
println!("sum_list (List[u64]): {list:?}");
println!("-> {:.0}x slower", list.as_secs_f64() / scalar.as_secs_f64());
} Output:
sum_scalar (counter): 28.56ms
sum_list (List[u64]): 590.48ms
-> 21x slower
> When you made Roto what kind of workloads were you optimizing for?
We're building a BGP collector with custom filters written in Roto. Imagine a database that constantly receives updates and we want to filter (or transform) those messages based on a script.
> How are you guys benchmarking performance?
Actually, we haven't done that much as feature work has been more important than optimization. There's a lot of opportunities for optimization left on the table.
There are a few benchmarks that we have done: - A very naive fibonacci computation, where we were faster than Lua, - There's this benchmark with a lot of string manipulation made by somebody else where we roughly match Lua: https://github.com/khvzak/script-bench-rs - There's the testing done with Iocaine, where Roto is apparently much faster than Lua. The scripts there do a lot of inspection of fairly simple types.
So the nuanced take is that Roto is fast with numbers and other cases which don't involve complex data structures that some other languages have really optimized for.
> I'm happy to cut a PR against your repo with some of the benchmarks I run on every commit in my own language projects if that would be helpful!
That would be very helpful! A proper benchmark suite is long overdue. (but do note that we don't accept AI contributions)
> sum_scalar (counter): 28.56ms > sum_list (List[u64]): 590.48ms > -> 21x slower
I think the list is so much slower it's calling out to Rust a lot to get items from the list. Lists currently also have a mutex inside, which would need to be locked for each access.
A big problem I encountered in using Lua in Rust for my game engine was that I wasn't able to serde the Lua runtime such that I can snapshot a game session and save it in a file, and retrieve it in another context.
fn contains(range: &AddrRange, addr: &IpAddr) -> bool {
range.min <= addr && addr <= range.max
Syntax is not everything, but it also shows that people too easily think they are great at language design when they really aren't. It's fascinating to watch how people continue with such an approach. How many people are going to use that over, say, python?
def contains(range_: AddrRange, addr: IpAddr) -> bool:
return range_.min <= addr <= range_.max
glad you like python, but a good reason to use this is setup being easier, also for people using rust, chances are the syntax is better compared to python. (also for what its worth, i picked up rust MUCH faster than i ever did with python)
the main reason i like rust is its explicitness in typing along with its syntax choices. memory safety means little imo, outside of being difficult to do strange stuff (which could be good or bad depending on your approach)
cargo add roto
code main.rs
-FILE- main.rs use roto::*;
fn main(){ roto::init_runtime() roto::load_script("hello.roto") }
-FILE-END-
code hello.roto
-FILE- hello.roto fn main() { print("Hello, world!"); } -FILE-END-
cargo run