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Posted by WillDaSilva 12 hours ago

The dead economy theory(www.owenmcgrann.com)
738 points | 924 commentspage 12
simplestates 1 hour ago|
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Jordan-117 5 hours ago||
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andsoitis 8 hours ago||
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andai 8 hours ago||
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rayiner 11 hours ago||
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amanaplanacanal 10 hours ago|
I'm pretty sure people like Bezos, Musk, and Zuckerberg don't really have any ideology beyond "what will make me more money".
rayiner 9 hours ago||
It’s telling you left out the people running the biggest AI companies.
amanaplanacanal 9 hours ago||
Maybe I'm out of the loop. Did Altman and Amodei champion mass immigration and outsourcing industrial production to China?
bonoboTP 6 hours ago||
The problem is worse than it seems when it's phrased like it's all about some evil far away up there billionaires.

It's a bit like discovering when a corrupt country is not purely corrupt due to its leadership but the whole thing is a fabric throughout society.

It all starts from individual decisions and it applies to small companies and consumers alike. If a small company needs translations, and AI is good enough to do it, they won't hire someone from the goodness of their hearts for human dignity reasons. If you're a regular person and want to do taxes or want fina cial advice or have some accounting tasks and it's way cheaper to do with AI than hiring someone, you won't hire accountants out os solidarity. Just like you don't buy artisanal shoes and handmade furniture.

We see this in many other things too, such as abundant entertainment and food delivery replacing social connections. People will take the path of least resistance.

Everyone wants to be needed and to have purpose, but also everyone in actual preferences do accept the machine version in the end if its more convenient and cheaper.

I don't see anything inevitable about "new jobs" or everyone discovering artistic passions to spend their time. That has not happened either when the Internet opened up all knowledge and you could suddenly talk to people anywhere on the planet. The optimists said that all this will lead to people learning and reading and everyone doing courses or talking to others and reconciling differences once they can directly interact, leading to more peace and understanding, that social media will give a voice to people and inevitably strengthen democracy etc.

It's very possible that all the Earth's population ends up like the Aboriginal Australians, addiction, lack of purpose, the ground pulled out under our feet. Essentially sedated with AI generated VR content to bear our existence and any small Epsilon change in the local neighborhood will have too much activation energy to happen. People all in their own generated worlds, polarized, angry at each other, seeing no value in each other, or perhaps even in their real selves, as opposed to their projection in the VR stories.

Some strange groups like the Amish will hang on, but even they are dependent on trade with broader society.

We will be told this is all for the greater good. Humanity was anyway not going to last forever, it was just one step on a cosmic drama, and the important thing is the future light cone and immense numbers of galaxies and whatnot.

nickff 11 hours ago||
>"This creates a prisoners’ dilemma: every firm rationally automates beyond the socially optimal level, because the individual incentive to cut labor costs always outweighs the diffuse, shared consequence of eliminating consumer spending."

It seems like the author is attributing a 'standard' recessionary spiral to AI. I am not sure that AI is causing the layoffs, but it does seem like the AI investments are the only thing that have kept us from a deep recession (until now).

bigbuppo 7 hours ago||
I've been finding it rather odd lately that the companies that make phyiscal things that run the world bring in significantly less money than a handful of companies whose main function is stalking people across the internet for advertising purposes.
treis 11 hours ago|
This isn't how the economy works at all. We're not all unemployed because farms mechanized. We're not all unemployed because factories automated. We won't all be unemployed if AI takes over white collar work.
smallmancontrov 11 hours ago||
The article explicitly addresses this. Crushing inequality was often a side-effect of industrial advancement, and while it always went away in the past it took a lifetime to do so.
mrguyorama 10 hours ago||
>Crushing inequality was often a side-effect of industrial advancement, and while it always went away in the past

Historically, inequality is only significantly reduced through events of extreme destruction, like the Black Plague and the world wars.

In other words, a society that ever lets massive inequality happen is just doomed. High inequality reliably stays that way until insane global black swans mildly correct it.

smallmancontrov 10 hours ago||
The USA is in the fortunate position of being able to look to our past for the best example of inequality crisis management: we didn't wind up with a Stalin or a Hitler because we had a Roosevelt. We could use another.
wiseowise 11 hours ago|||
> We won't all be unemployed if AI takes over white collar work.

So you wouldn’t mind going from 6 figure salary to working as a cashier at Walmart, figuratively speaking? Because I sure as hell mind, given mortgage and family obligations.

treis 10 hours ago|||
Obviously I'm not immune from the anxiety everyone feels and it's going to be bad for some people. That doesn't change that historically the jobs aren't from programmer to cashier. They're from shoveling shit or screwing caps on toothpaste tubes to software engineering.

The trajectory of the West has been good for a long time and the rate of improvement is increasing.

8note 10 hours ago|||
you could still go work on the oil patch

most people arent making a six figure salary, and have mortgage and family obligations

wiseowise 10 hours ago||
Did they massively improve working conditions, or your software job is as bad as working in an oil patch? Mine isn’t.

> most people arent making a six figure salary, and have mortgage and family obligations

Maybe not most, but there’s sure lot of white collars making six figures. I don’t know what kind of teenage big tech bubble you’re in for the rest, but more than 70% of my colleagues have mortgage and families.

stratos123 10 hours ago|||
When automation happened historically, people whose job were displaced suffered a lot and eventually pivoted to different jobs. Having to relearn all of your career skills is already quite bad in practice, but a bigger problem is that it only works if you can learn the skills for job B before it, too, is automated. That'd require AI progress to hit a wall and stay there for at least years, ideally for decades. If this doesn't happen, then there simply won't be any white-collar jobs to pivot to, and shortly after that, no jobs to pivot to at all.
harimau777 11 hours ago|||
Historically that's not accurate. Automation eventually resulted in more jobs, but for the people actually living through the automation it was VERY bad.
interstice 10 hours ago|||
Each time people found something else to do that someone would pay them for. This doesn't automatically mean there is an infinite supply of that - unless you believe in it as some kind of fundamental law.
forgetfulness 5 hours ago||
I simply don't believe that there is an infinite demand for the kinds of things that can be done by generating text.

How many insurance policies does anyone need to contract, how much legal advice does anyone need to hear, how many movies does anyone need to watch, and how much software does must support that demand, so that everyone can stay employed in an AI accelerated service sector?

The new opportunities could well be that labor costs go down so much that the minimum wage is lowered and sweatshops return to developed countries.

I'm sure some aspiring sweatshop owners could be excited by that possibility, I don't think a lot of software developers or TV show writers are eager to be sewing sneakers for a pittance.

kjkjadksj 11 hours ago||
Farms mechanized but we luckily had other jobs on hand to sponge that up. What used to be a farmhand is now a gas station worker selling zyn to a wallmart worker who sells food to the gas station worker.

However, AI is coming for them too. This time it really is different. The whole business pitch is the elimination of any safe harbor. All human labor to be automated. Why have 8 billion humans in that environment? Scary times ahead. We will probably end up culled by the machine.

bwanab 11 hours ago||
In my now long lifetime, I can't tell you how many times I've heard the phrase "This time it really is different" for it to turn out that it really wasn't all that different. Maybe this time it is, but I'd put my bet on isn't.
yyyk 8 hours ago|||
>In my now long lifetime, I can't tell you how many times I've heard the phrase...

Russell's Turkey Parable:

"The man who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life at last wrings its neck instead, showing that more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would have been useful to the chicken."

bigbadfeline 10 hours ago|||
> In my now long lifetime, I can't tell you how many times I've heard the phrase "This time it really is different"

This isn't an argument and it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of risk and game theory.

Besides, it's always been different, in the sense of boiling frog temperature going up. The present case is more different because this time, the rate of rising is high enough to make the frogs uncomfortable... and you're trying to calm them down and keep them in the water:

> Look frogs, the temps've always been rising, "many times I've heard the phrase "This time it really is different" for it to turn out that it really wasn't all that different."

> Maybe this time it is, but I'd put my bet on isn't.

Bro, it's not about betting... you have to try hard to learn something about risk.

rglullis 7 hours ago||
If it's one thing I miss from Twitter, it's to read Taleb tearing new holes on IYIs like your parent's comment.