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Posted by vrganj 8 hours ago

Danish pension fund excludes SpaceX citing governance and valuation(www.reuters.com)
347 points | 275 commentspage 2
ksimukka 6 hours ago|
(Apologies for the bad grammar, my son was born a little over 24 hours ago. I’m choosing not to use a LLM, so you are getting the real me)

Even sovereign funds (example Norway) are invested in American tech, funds, and indexes.

It is interesting to think about (from the perspective of an immigrant to Norway) how I moved my life’s savings from the US to Norway.

I’m now fully invested into Norway (real estate, savings, and retirement).

My understand is that Norwegians (and the nordics) have historically looked up to the US as a world leader.

I think that is no longer true and maybe this decision by Denmark is a data point of how the Nordics are changing?

It kind of feels like we all have been caught holding the bag (US reserve currency) and now we have to carefully unwind our position.

I’ve lost my point. Maybe my goal here is to just contribute to this discussion to distract from the exhaustion.

pimeys 6 hours ago||
As a Nordic (Finland), I think this is true. In the history, US has been always admired and we've loved to travel there and cherish the culture. Damn, I was there when Conan O'Brien traveled to Helsinki, and greeting him with this massive crowd of people who really love him. I married an American, I've traveled through the country multiple times with my partner. Love the food, people, the nature, the cities.

But this has definitely changed for me now. The idea of crossing the border and having to flip a coin is the border control guy a nice guy or not is not appealing as a diabetic who needs his phone to be with him untampered and who doesn't want to sit in a cell somewhere for days/weeks because they posted a funny meme of a person you can't joke about. Or who just witnesses this absolute inequality happening, and who witnesses the leaders of this country coming to my country and giving their support for parties who want me to not marry and who doesn't want to see me existing.

I am just tired. And sad. I wish I could get our relationship back with the US but I don't know... Even if we backtrack from here, get back to the "olden times", it will take a moment until I can enjoy US again.

P.S. Conan is still a treasure!

ksimukka 5 hours ago|||
Conan is great!
carlosjobim 5 hours ago|||
> The idea of crossing the border and having to flip a coin is the border control guy a nice guy or not

That is nothing new. It's how it's been forever. And not only arriving in the USA, but also Canada, Germany and other places.

pimeys 4 hours ago|||
Well... Strip searching and jailing young German girls in the border is not something I hear happening very often in countries like Canada, Germany, Denmark, Finland... Actually I have not heard that happening even once! My American partner has crossed the German border countless of times from US. Before they got an EU passport, even then the border queue was prompt and the guard sometimes asked a joke in German and a minute later let them pass.

I waited hours in Newark even before the current joke of a government. The risk of being in a jail without my phone which has a life-saving app to manage my diabetes is a risk I am not going to take.

carlosjobim 4 hours ago|||
> Actually I have not heard that happening even once!

Have you heard that happening more than once?

Having your luggage searched, long interrogations, dog sniffing, and then more interrogations - that has been common on international borders. All for no other reason than the border guard didn't like your face. That's my real life experience as a person who used to travel a lot. And many others I've met told similar stories, including being denied entry. So it's been a coin flip for a long time.

dmix 4 hours ago|||
> jailing young German girls in the border

Last time I read that story they were given the option to immediately fly back to Germany for free after their tourist visa was declined but the girls declined the flight because they wanted to fly somewhere else on another flight which wasn’t available yet, which means they had to be detained. So they stayed overnight in an immigration detention facility which included a search.

They also flew to Hawaii without a hotel booked which is something the guards always look for (that was basically 101 common knowledge when I first crossed 15yrs ago). Just like how having a flight out prebooked is important.

arjie 2 hours ago|||
Realistically, as World War 2 demonstrated, Finland’s independence rests on America’s will to protect it. And after it, Norway and Sweden as well.

Strategically modifying one’s pension fund choices to prevent having sub-prime companies bundled into a possible success is not a sign of anything. The Nordic nations will attempt to stay allied to the US because survival depends on it. They are much closer to the frontier and Western Europe’s ability and desire to protect them is substantially weaker.

In the event of a fall of NATO far western countries like Spain or Portugal will likely free-ride by virtue of their geography. The Finns get no such benefit.

shivpat 6 hours ago|||
Get off your phone and enjoy the time lol - journal instead if you must write something
yokoprime 5 hours ago||
Gatekeeping is never a good look.
accidentally 1 hour ago|||
Congratulations on your newborn son! You must be on cloud nine (no pun intended).
pseudony 6 hours ago|||
Congratulations :)

As a Dane, I would say yes. Especially among boomers there was always a genuine appreciation of the US and its role as guardian of a rules-based international order and western civilization more generally.

I think that sentiment has gone, even as younger generations have increasingly incorporated English words, music, TV and more into their own, but you seldom hear the same genuine trust in the US as a force for good.

sgt 4 hours ago||
I'd say in Norway there's more inherent trust in America. People may appear a bit more critical, but by now it's part of the culture. Even though you have some regresion of that trust due to Trump and polarization, I'd say most people see the US as a core part of Western society, cultural and critical to defense.
l23k4 6 hours ago|||
>I think that is no longer true and maybe this decision by Denmark is a data point of how the Nordics are changing?

No, this is just standard pension fund governance.

ksimukka 5 hours ago||
Right, that makes sense. I assume it happens often as part of the governance process. my original statement could have be better phrased as a question.

What are your thoughts on the general consensus of Nordics views and opinions about the US?

simonjgreen 6 hours ago||
Congratulations, and enjoy your time :)
throw672 5 hours ago||
American gov is gonna invade Greenland for sure for not cooperating with american conmen
outside1234 2 hours ago||
We need Calpers (California pension fund) and others to do this as well.
beardyw 6 hours ago||
Presumably Musk will sue them.
tomaskafka 6 hours ago|
Or tell Trump to start a war with them.
BYazfVCcq 4 hours ago||
I'm pretty sure Trump threatening to invade Greenland/Denmark played a part in the decision to not invest in the company.
bluecalm 2 hours ago||
The issue is raised a lot but there is less and less time and I don't think it will hit mainstream before IPO is done and pension funds/passive investors will be forced to buy it.

It really does look bad: low float multiplier rule (that will overweight SpaceX) introduced very recently, fast inclusion mechanism, insiders being allowed to sell faster than usual etc.

It all looks like an orchestrated dump into passive investors/pension funds/other ETF holders.

Investing in IPOs is a terrible strategy historically. Here we have several mega IPOs incoming with rules being re-designed just for them to be included faster in your "passive" portfolio.

andyjohnson0 5 hours ago||
For those commenting that this decision may have a political element: Greenland is a part of the Kingdom of Denmark.

Musk is a prominent Trump/MAGA supporter, and Trump has threatened to annex Greenland by force. SpaceX is part of Trump's Golden Dome project, and one of the reasons that Trump wants Greenland is to site ICBM detection and interceptor systems.

johneth 5 hours ago||
All good points, but I think their main point of poor governance is still the pure motivation.
detourdog 4 hours ago|||
The governance issues seem much worse than the other issues with pricing and inclusion.
myk9001 4 hours ago|||
> ... part of the reasons that Trump wants Greenland is to site ICBM detection and interceptor systems.

Nothing is stopping the US from deploying those in Greenland right now.

The only reason Trump wants Greenland is he's not all there -- Greenland looks big on the map so he's fixated on it.

andyjohnson0 4 hours ago||
> Nothing is stopping the US from deploying those in Greenland

That would require the (politically unlikely) agreement of the Danish government. See article 2 of the relevant treaty [1]:

"...establishing and/or operating such defense areas as the two Governments, on the basis of NATO defense plans, may from time to time agree to be necessary..."

> The only reason Trump wants Greenland is he's not all there -- Greenland looks big on the map so he's fixated on it.

I agree that that is part of it, but there is more to it than that.

[1] https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/den001.asp

Symbiote 3 hours ago|||
Why wouldn't Denmark agree? Danish and Greenlandic politicians have reminded the US several times that more bases can be established under the terms of this treaty.

E.g. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx21669452lo

myk9001 3 hours ago|||
So, you're saying the US (300+ mln, #1 military) never actually requested to deploy them and Denmark (5 mln) never actually refused. But because you think an agreement is unlikely, it's straight to annexation by force. Do I have that right?
andyjohnson0 2 hours ago||
No, I'm saying that new military installations would be unlikely to be agreed due to domestic political sentiment. Pituffik was certainly agreed by both sides, but that was a long time ago.

(I'm not Danish or Greenlandic, so this is just my reading of the situation.)

amelius 4 hours ago||
Then why not hedge? If they take Greenland at least they have their pensions.
ChrisArchitect 3 hours ago||
[dupe] Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48324097
dbg31415 5 hours ago||
Good move.

Elon is rigging the stock market and getting index funds to invest in companies that are over-valued and thus not stable.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sYA-z0Y8WRQ

Hamuko 7 hours ago||
I've recently been thinking about pulling my money from all of the US funds that I currently have. I really don't want my investments to be in SpaceX, OpenAI or Anthropic.
SwellJoe 6 hours ago||
With the new Nasdaq 100 fast track rule, I'd certainly get out of any index that tracks it, or any funds that are invested in it. I don't know if any other indexes have had similar policy changes...but, if it works this time, and insiders are able to steal a few billion dollars from retirement funds without people even realizing it, I'm sure it'll become more commonplace until we have a functional government that regulates this kind of crime.

https://www.kiplinger.com/investing/what-the-nasdaqs-new-fas...

Hamuko 6 hours ago|||
Apparently my US index fund is based on MSCI, which is even worse: eligible after 10 trading days. Although the float-adjusted market cap calculation should lessen the blow.
gigatexal 6 hours ago|||
I’m going to be selling out of my Nasdaq ETF too. Such a shame.

Buuut if Anthropic does the same and lists on the Nasdaq then I might reconsider.

jurgenburgen 5 hours ago||
Just buy Anthropic directly, why dilute your money through an ETF?
andsoitis 7 hours ago|||
> been thinking about pulling my money from all of the US funds that I currently have

What’s holding you back? And what alternative investments are you considering?

I recently did homework to decide whether to double down on VOO (S&P 500 index) or to diversify via VXUS (ex-US index), and concluded VOO is better for my risk-adjusted ROI outlook and time horizon.

gigatexal 6 hours ago|||
Same. Though I’m 85%+ VOOG
Hamuko 6 hours ago|||
Momentum, really. I usually just buy more of a given fund and don't really take any out. My small portfolio is split across different funds, so I'd probably just split around the money I'd withdraw from the US-based ones into the other ones.
jstummbillig 6 hours ago|||
> I really don't want my investments to be in SpaceX, OpenAI or Anthropic.

This just being an incomplete list or is there another reason you name the last two but not Google?

nixon_why69 6 hours ago||
Google being one of the most profitable companies on the planet might contribute? OpenAI and Anthropic don't seem to be profitable while SpaceX is weighed down by heavy losses on grok.
spacebanana7 7 hours ago||
Why not Anthropic? They’re a very rare company capable of charging $200 per month per seat level fee across the corporate workforce.

Yes their compute costs are astronomical, but that can be managed down over time by more efficiency or mild enshittification that doesn’t create too much churn.

originalvichy 6 hours ago|||
You would think you’re investing in a software technology company, but after reading a bit of news stories, you realize you’re quite literally funding war crimes. If I invested in an arms company, I’d have reasonable expectations about what I invest in. Investing in Anthropic at surface level looks like investing in software for hobbies and business.

It’s pretty depressing to be honest. I don’t know how I could work in any of these military industry companies.

mrweasel 6 hours ago|||
Normally Danish pension companies and banks will refuse to invest your money in weapons manufactures (unless you have a lot of money, then they apparently don't care). But as long as your money is invested as a pool, they won't do weapons.

I think you're right that e.g. Anthropic wouldn't be on the block list, because: It's an IT company, and I suspect that even Palantir might make the cut. It is fairly annoying, because my pension fund won't invest in Rheinmetall, SAAB or Kongberg, which I think they should, but they will probably invest in Anthropic, OpenAI, and SpaceX, which I don't really like.

originalvichy 5 hours ago||
It’s probably quite similar here in Finland. I’m interested to see what the current fund(s) contain.
andsoitis 6 hours ago||||
All major indices have always included defense contractors.

Also, when you buy into an index fund, you are not funding the companies that the index tracks. That’s a misunderstanding of how the markets and index funds work.

0123456789ABCDE 6 hours ago||
you seem to be implying that, secondary markets have no effect on primary market prices, and i just want to make sure that's what you meant.
cj 4 hours ago||||
Replace "war crimes" with "hardware" and it's an equally good reason not to invest.

They're valued like software companies, but they have terrible margins compared to software. Investors haven't figured out how to value these companies.

bauerd 6 hours ago||||
>I don’t know how I could work in any of these military industry companies.

You'd sing a different song quite quickly once the threat stops being abstract as you don't get to free-ride on the security a defense industry provides.

RobotToaster 5 hours ago|||
The defence industry that would be required to prevent an invasion of the US mainland is at least an order of magnitude smaller than what currently exists to sustain the US empire.
originalvichy 5 hours ago|||
I wouldn’t, but thanks for the reply. I’ve gone through conscription and we are neighbours with Russia. I’ve not lived a day in my life without existential military threat.
bauerd 3 hours ago||
You don’t think there are causes worth fighting for? Or that deterrence is immoral? Help me understand.
ekianjo 6 hours ago||||
> you’re quite literally funding war crimes

What difference with Microsoft, amazon and google? They all heavily support the military.

bestouff 6 hours ago|||
(S)he said: "pulling my money from all of the US funds that I currently have".

Edit: OK, no the same person.

originalvichy 5 hours ago|||
There is none. That’s why I wouldn’t invest in them either.
3683826312819 4 hours ago|||
[dead]
acdha 3 hours ago||||
> Why not Anthropic? They’re a very rare company capable of charging $200 per month per seat level fee across the corporate workforce.

Because no part of this statement is accurate. They’d like investors to believe it’s very rare but they have multiple strong competitors, most of whom have much better financials, and the entire sector is worried that the open models are going to effectively cap rates below what they need to pay off their massive investments. Lastly, they’re not universally must-have in software development which is one of the domains best suited for LLMs but most corporate work lacks similar correctness oracles and we’re already seeing major corporate customers reconsider the cost/benefit ratio.

None of that means they’re doomed but a lot of stars need to align for them to keep their valuation up. They don’t need to go out of business for investors to lose money buying in at the peak.

100ms 6 hours ago||||
Chinese hardware and energy headwinds aren't going to be great for Anthropic, apparently not even over a 1 year time horizon.
Hamuko 6 hours ago||||
Because I don't really trust any of them, and I don't believe that the business is self-sustainable. At the moment we're in a phase where CTOs are able to withdraw money from the corporate bank accounts to be "on the cutting edge", but I don't think that's going to last. I'd rather have my money in something else.
andsoitis 6 hours ago||
Index funds adjust based on performance of the underlying stocks, so it doesn’t really matter if one of them does poorly. The index fund will adjust. When you buy an index fund like the S&P 500, you’re taking a position that the mega-caps it comprises as a whole will give you outsized returns over extended periods of time.
adammarples 6 hours ago|||
And they "only" need about 100 million recurring subscribers at $200 per month to make the profits that will justify their nearly $1 trillion valuation with almost no room for growth whatsoever, so who wouldn't want a chunk of that pie. (numbers calculated on back of imaginary envelope)
seydor 6 hours ago|
I mean it isn't like it was automatically included.
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