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Posted by mooreds 1 hour ago

To have a moral stance on AI is to be an outcast, and it sucks(musings.martyn.berlin)
90 points | 147 comments
derac 49 minutes ago|
It's funny, I have the opposite experience of everyone around me hating AI. I'm not aggressively pro-AI around them at all but you aren't allowed to have any positive or nuanced opinion of the tech.

I'm used to it though, I've been excited by the concept of AI since reading about Turing and such as a child 20 years ago. The idea has always been met with negativity, IMO because people want to feel that they have a part of themselves that is beyond nature and has a "special" place in the universe.

According to Google Wikipedia still gets 4 billion pageviews a month. The article seems a bit hyperbolic. There are certainly concerns around the nature of work and the economy, though. There are of course ongoing concerns about global warming. I'm not denying that, but I don't think it's particular to AI tech.

Deebster 55 seconds ago||
Last year Wikipedia reported an 8% drop in humans traffic[1]. That's huge.

[1] https://diff.wikimedia.org/2025/10/17/new-user-trends-on-wik...

thewebguyd 35 minutes ago|||
> you aren't allowed to have any positive or nuanced opinion of the tech.

I'm finding this isn't unique to AI, it's as if our entire society has become black and white, overly tribal. There's little room for shades of gray now.

Look at the issue of public drug use by the unhoused in PNW cities, as an example. If you state any opinion other than silent acceptance of the issue, you get called a far-right nutjob. Trying to stand up for your right to a safe public space brands you as evil.

There's no room for a middle ground or nuance anymore. You are either entirely in one tribe, or entirely out.

michaelt 8 minutes ago||
> Look at the issue of public drug use by the unhoused in PNW cities, as an example. If you state any opinion other than silent acceptance of the issue, you get called a far-right nutjob.

Are you having these conversations in person? Or are these conversations happening on Twitter/Reddit/HN/whatever?

In my experience, online forums don't really work for political discussion for a bunch of reasons.

If you change to getting your fix of politics from long-form articles and radio-style scripted podcasts by professional journalists, you'll probably find there's a lot more room for nuance.

bensyverson 35 minutes ago|||
Nuance was banned from the internet circa 1996, sorry
ambicapter 45 minutes ago|||
Part of the hate surrounding AI is that it is being sold as AI, but it really, really isn't the AI of the kind you read as a child 20 years ago.
YoukaiCountry 25 minutes ago|||
If you could show people 20 years ago what we have now, I have no doubt most people would have considered it AI. We can have actual conversations with our computers, they can now interact with tools they are provided, and act in a reasonably intelligent manner for a great many tasks. 20-year-ago-me would have barely been able to believe it. Is this sort of stance that this "isn't AI" missing the forest for the trees?
mooreds 23 minutes ago||
> We can have actual conversations with our computers,

Not just computers, but documents! It's amazing to be able to paste in a few RFCs and then interrogate the documents to get a better understanding of them.

It is truly an amazing time we live in. I get the worries and fear too, but it is still amazing.

beering 33 minutes ago||||
Is it not? You can talk to it in plain English and it can do things for you and respond back in a synthesized voice. I was reading an old Asimov short story about a guy who comes across a lost robot and has to trick it into staying put, and it felt weirdly prescient. (The story is “Robot AL-76 Goes Astray”)
newaccountman2 2 minutes ago|||
It's not really "intelligence"

It's just the mimicry thereof. I probably fall into the "pro-AI" camp if we want to divide things along the binary, but it's pretty facile to consider this software to possess or represent "intelligence" IMO.

bvfthnvxxdgbnk 26 minutes ago|||
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nerdsniper 40 minutes ago||||
When I was a kid, “AI” was quake 2 bots, starcraft pathfinding algorithms, and chessbot personalities.

I dont understand why the old definition of AI keeps being retconned.

gobdovan 28 minutes ago|||
IQ tests are restandardised from time to time. We could take the scores from 100 years ago and see that everybody would be gifted.

Intelligence is usually defined as the skill in pursuing a goal, or speed of acquiring the ability for pursuing given goal. Given the goal-dependent nature, it's not that useful to use the same tests and measurements for intelligence over time, be it artificial or not.

bvfthnvxxdgbnk 20 minutes ago||
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lazide 39 minutes ago|||
Branding. LLM’s (as a term!) are too specific for the ‘conquer the world’ narratives the VCs want to justify the high valuations. Machine Learning sounds too technical.

AI is pithy, and can be anything from skynet to… skynet. Or clippy, technically, but everyone seems to have forgotten about him.

FOMO drives the valuation, and the more vagueness and ambiguity you can have, the easier it is to stoke it. And if the option is being part owner of a world conquering, game changing tech - or a victim - which would you choose?

marcosdumay 10 minutes ago||
I really like the idea of AI being the brand of whatever we are hyping so much that will inevitably fail spectacularly and turn the entire society against it for a couple of decades.

The name basically means anything a computer can do, and has meant almost anything a computer does at some point. So it's not a very useful word anyway, no loss in letting marketers use it to whatever Tormentus Nexus they are working towards.

bananaflag 28 minutes ago||||
What do you mean? It's exactly what every child has read in the past 80 years: you can talk to the computer and it does intellectual work like math or coding or writing stories.
SoftTalker 35 minutes ago|||
Yes. We were supposed to have the Star Trek post-scarcity economy, whereas what we're getting is layoffs, rent-seeking and wealth extraction at every turn, complete loss of personal privacy, everything getting more expensive, and no hope for the future. Meanwhile I'm still washing and folding my clothes every week.
Tubelord 20 minutes ago|||
Maybe we need some kind of worldwide negative event first. In Star Trek lore, World War 3 starts this year (2026). Like with World War 2, perhaps it’s needed to calibrate the zeitgeist to a spot where a prosperous era can follow /shrug
ryandrake 20 minutes ago|||
An optimist can hope AI and robotics brings us into a post-scarcity world and that society responds with utopia rather than just disposing of the 99% of people who become economically irrelevant. History has a pessimistic vibe though.
senordevnyc 30 seconds ago||
History has the most optimistic vibe imaginable, what are you talking about?? Look at where we are as a species right now, vs century ago, a millennium ago, ten thousand years ago!

What period of history would you want your children to be born into, with zero control over where or who they’d be born to? Just a random person on the earth on a date you choose, what would be your choice?

qsera 41 minutes ago|||
>I've been excited by the concept of AI since reading about Turing and such as a child 20 years ago...

I have been too, but LLMs aint it, just like mobile phones is not subspace communicator...

j45 32 minutes ago|||
The nuanced takes of tech haven't been welcome for other tech as well.
BoorishBears 34 minutes ago|||
> The idea has always been met with negativity, IMO because people want to feel that they have a part of themselves that is beyond nature and has a "special" place in the universe.

This is actually a big part of why being pro-AI is met with negativity today.

As someone who's using and building with AI and also experiences the "anti" movement, you've chosen a pretty condescending minority of the reasons why they dislike AI and painted it as the default.

"They never liked AI because they don't like the idea maybe they're not such special snowflakes in the universe"... really?

They didn't "always hate AI". Most people didn't even think of AI outside of niche things like self-driving. Instead their hatred is from LLMs and generative AI which (as far as they're concerned) didn't exist until November 30, 2022.

Actual reasons they readily share for not liking it are things like:

- it was built by abusing copyright (true with nuance)

- it's used to generate massive amounts of low value content that's overwhelming their spaces (very true)

- it's having an environmental impact (true with more nuance)

- it's making the things they want to buy more expensive (true, even things unrelated to AI)

- the loudest voices in the room have spent years telling them this could destroy humanity and/or take all their jobs (completely true)

- it's behind major layoffs (true with nuance around stated reasons vs actual)

- people who are pro-AI have a strong tendency to minimize their reasons for hating it (... obviously true)

I mean even if you like AI, it's clear we're at a place with so many reasons for people to be anti-AI that it's honestly an own goal at this point.

People didn't have opinions about generative AI as it exists today 20 years ago. The idea of a computer being able to turn any topic into a haiku would have been contentious for if it was possible, not if it was good: that sounds great!

But now we got it and it came with way more baggage than any of them ever imagined. They didn't think it'd learn to write haikus by ripping through every written word. And they didn't think it'd be used to write lots of spam instead of haikus once it could. And they didn't think the same capability would generalize to typing in an artist's name and spitting out infinitely remixed copies of their work.

-

I think moving forward in a less negative direction starts with being real about why people hate AI, and it's a lot less "it makes me feel less special" than it is "it's actively reducing my quality of life" for people outside of the bubble.

derac 21 minutes ago|||
I wasn't trying to be condescending. I was stating my experience talking to people 10-20 years ago, before AI was thought about at all by people outside of tech. It always boiled down to a dualist vs monist ontology argument. I agree there are valid reasons to dislike current generative AI tech though. I agree with a lot of this.

I should say I do think that deeper ontological thing is why people tend to think the tech will always be a novelty or will stagnate soon, etc.

peteforde 14 minutes ago|||
I appreciate this nuanced take. You've been added to my filter of people who have an opinion that bubbles to the top.

I wish the Dems could have this conversation about their policies and messaging!

Silagi 47 minutes ago||
Controversial take: It's weird to see people in tech taking this stance. They've been riding the same wave of exploiting the average person through economies of scale for the last 20+ years, but now that it affects them, it's suddenly catastrophic.

You dont get to benefit from the expansion of companies like Uber, airbnb or meta, then pretend like you were always focused on the success of the average person. You didn't care when you could get ahead, don't pretend like you care now. It's childishly performative. This is an evolution of the same automation and communication tech that has been growing for as long as most people have been alive. Just now it might actually affect the technologically literate class. You did this. Own it.

nocman 30 minutes ago||
> It's weird to see people in tech taking this stance. They've been riding the same wave of exploiting the average person through economies of scale for the last 20+ years, but now that it affects them, it's suddenly catastrophic.

That's an awfully wide swath you are cutting there. I can't think of a single tech person that I've worked closely with in the last 20 years that I would describe as "riding the same wave of exploiting the average person through economies of scale". The majority of tech workers do not work for FAANG, or anything close to it.

Silagi 25 minutes ago|||
And you're cutting an awfully wide swath in the opposite direction; most tech gains value by exploiting or displacing people. Economies of scale don't just exist at the absolute top of the economy. The computer cut out entire classes of people from jobs they had specialized in by decreasing the education or effort required to successfully complete tasks, at the cost of massively increased infrastructure costs.

I'm all for pushing back against what AI might do, but doing it in this massively dishonest way just opens the door to obvious counters.

bethekidyouwant 19 minutes ago|||
Name any tech job and I will tell you how it exploits the average people through economies of scale
macintux 44 minutes ago|||
Some of us have loathed Uber, Airbnb & Meta. Are we allowed to be negative about AI?
kentm 50 seconds ago|||
Sure. I think that I’d you were expressing concerns about all the leopards running around and having discussions about whether we need to do something about the leopard population, it’s perfectly reasonable to be upset when a leopard eats your face.

It’s just that the median tech worker was more often to talk about moving fast and breaking things and making glib statements about buggy whips.

enraged_camel 3 minutes ago|||
It's not a matter of being "allowed" per se. What the parent is saying that people need to do a better job being internally consistent in their beliefs and moral stances. If you are one such person, great! But my impression is that most people aren't.
CurtMonash 43 minutes ago|||
Partially correct. But the massive investments of capital, environmental resources, etc. are in some cases specific to modern AI, and some of the objections are specific to those. Ditto the overlapping issue of global intellectual property appropriation. (Much of what LLMs do is refactor what people posted on the web for free.)
cm2012 41 minutes ago||
It is the exact same capital that paid all of our salaries for the last 20 years
dmpk2k 36 minutes ago|||
It's weird for physicists to complain about nuclear weapons. They did it. Own it.
danielovichdk 37 minutes ago|||
Just because you don't have the integrity it takes, doesn't mean others are more cool than you, in that regard.

Wanker

4ashgt 40 minutes ago|||
Most people don't work for Uber, Meta or AirBnB and these companies have been criticized forever in tech forums.

This time the "innovation" is also based on actual theft.

wiseowise 18 minutes ago|||
> Controversial take: It's weird to see people in tech taking this stance. They've been riding the same wave of exploiting the average person through economies of scale for the last 20+ years, but now that it affects them, it's suddenly catastrophic.

Let's not rewrite history, ok? VCs funded and killed professions, and now it's our head on the chopping block. You can always argue that "I just followed orders", and it would be true, but let's not create an impression that everyone working in tech is force of evil working against common people.

tanvach 29 minutes ago|||
This is like saying cancer is perfectly normal.
peteforde 8 minutes ago||
Is cancer not normal?

40-45% of people will get cancer in their lives.

It's estimated that 25-30% of people, globally, enjoy hip-hop.

Cancer is 50% more common than hip-hop.

Is hip-hop normal?

toasty228 35 minutes ago|||
Who's "they", the vast majority devs work for non tech companies doing very boring shit. We're not all hellbent on making the most $$$ while burning the world down like the silicon valley degenerates
beering 30 minutes ago||
The boring shit is still about eliminating labor that would have had to be done without computers. Automation is a core value of computing, back to automated switchboards and census tabulation.
dd8601fn 31 minutes ago|||
There are about ten billion relevant and reasonable ways to differentiate and choose priorities in all of that.

Suggesting that nobody is entitled to opinions on one category sounds kinda silly.

Silagi 2 minutes ago|||
I'm specifically saying "I'm entitled to displace people with automation built on previous work, but automation that affects me shouldn't be allowed" is a particularly hypocritical take.

The implications of AI aren't as novel as tech circles would like to believe. The same trends in employment and automation have been happening across industries for decades in slightly different forms. This is just the first time it might actually affect the people doing the work, instead of being conveniently separated from their inner circle.

wiseowise 14 minutes ago|||
> Suggesting that nobody is entitled to opinions on one category sounds kinda silly.

How else would they feel morally superior to degenerate techies who finally got what they deserve? Didn't you get the memo? It's all Joe the Java developer who's the impetus of injustice in the world.

binary132 32 minutes ago||
People are never ever ever allowed to realize maybe sometimes bad things are bad once the chickens come home to roost. An antisocial belief they held fifteen years ago needs to define them forever, because people are just machines for receiving guilt and wrath, they can’t learn anything from suffering personally, or if they can here’s why it’s bad anyway.

Also engineers building stuff to spec are exactly the same thing as venture capitalists

Kattywumpus 41 minutes ago||
To be fair, it doesn't sound like anyone is literally judging this person for his moral stance -- it sounds like he is judging others for not sharing his morals. They're not making him an outcast; he is literally casting others out of his life because they don't meet his purity standards.

I'm not saying that as a criticism. I think a lot of people who value a human-made culture are going to drop out of mainstream society in the next decade or so, find each other, and found human-first communities where shared human norms dominate. If AI companies wanted to get ahead of the bad press? They'd help found some of these communities. No strings attached.

senko 55 minutes ago||
This post, like many others, confuses AI with Big Tech (or maybe that's intentional).

I can wholehartedly agree with everything said there, if I mentally replace "AI" with "big tech profitmaxxing using this new tech".

I however, don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater: https://blog.senko.net/how-i-want-to-use-ai

morislz 30 minutes ago||
Well, but the data centers needed for AI are on a much different scale than what "big tech profitmaxxing" used to need. I also agree with the author and you. Morally, I also cannot support the toll it takes on the environment, workers, and society in general. However, what's the option? Either be part of it or get laid off. Build an AI startup or be employeed in one and get that money or well I really cannot imagine a third path that's both financially viable and keeps you relevant in the next decade.
wuhhh 35 minutes ago||
That the frontier models and subs are all big tech is probably what bothers me most about “AI” right now, but I’m bullish on advancements in the capabilities of local models. I suspect and hope that, in time, the field will level and we will have very capable local, offline models and the landscape will be much as it is now with subscription compute in the cloud for enterprise and self host / local first for indies / hackers etc.
Almondsetat 56 minutes ago||
I clicked on the article thinking it would be about having a moral stance, when it's clear the author thinks his' is the moral stance
dcrazy 51 minutes ago||
Real “I am persecuted for my genius” energy.
Schmerika 27 minutes ago|||
> it's clear the author thinks his' is the moral stance

If you don't think your moral stance is the correct one - then why aren't you changing your moral stance? Why do you have one at all?

It's ok to have strong opinions on morality, and it's cool to live by them, and good to talk about them. I don't happen to completely agree with the author, but I can respect a belief in one's own considered opinion, and the right to express it. No one is being harmed by the author's article.

For example, I have a "strong" moral opinion, which makes many people angry to hear: I don't vote for politicians who arm and enable genocide.

In America, that makes me weird, or worse. I still believe I'm right, and I still talk about it. I firmly believe that cutting out anyone who collaborates on genocide and vetoes ceasefires is the only morally correct move, and happy to talk about why I think that's not just justified and rational but also simply your bare minimum duty as a human being.

That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that other people feel differently, or that I can't understand where they're coming from with some level of empathy. But it also doesn't mean I have to hang around them. I generally choose not to - genocide enablers squick me out.

The author even explicitly acknowledged that other people have different moral views:

> I will not change my morals or ethics to suit someone else, nor do I expect other people to change theirs.

Along with self awareness and reasonable doubt:

> Does that make me unreasonable? Maybe?

On top of which, the whole diatribe is presented as a "random musing", rather than a demand for you to think differently.

mlyle 54 minutes ago||
And a lot of it is silly.

What, we can't use AI even to show it's silly and incomplete? How are people supposed to know the ways it's incomplete if we cannot evaluate it?

4ndrewl 48 minutes ago||
First principles?
Retr0id 42 minutes ago||
That would be nice, but the emergent properties of LLMs defy any kind of first-principles reasoning if you ask me.
ronbenton 55 minutes ago||
>This makes me an outcast. In tech, and out of it.

In tech, maybe. Out of tech? No way. A bunch of surveys show that people are mostly negative on AI. For example: https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2025/09/17/how-americans...

brabel 46 minutes ago||
Is this a case of people saying one thing and doing another?? Everyone's experience is different, but to me it seems most people love AI?! I see reports in the news about people not being able to do anything anymore without asking AI first, people dating AI boy/girlfriends, students using AI to do homework, teachers using AI to catch AI cheating by students, people writing emails via AI, improving their own writing with AI... and so many more! I personally use it a lot for coding (though I still try to do some manual work so I don't just forget everything), translations, quick queries about things, in the computer (specially CLI commands, AI is just incredibly good at it - no matter the CLI, seemingly) and in the physical world (e.g. what's the name of that thing you turn on a tap to open it - English is not my first language), it even helped me a lot figure out legislation in two different countries, where finding and understanding the law was next to impossible by myself (and it gave me links to everything so I could check by myself).
wincy 43 minutes ago|||
Yeah this strikes me as everyone loudly complaining about how they hate McDonald’s and yet every McDonald’s has a drive thru line 24/7.
opan 28 minutes ago||
If you and 5 others go to McDonald's for 3 meals a day, it will always appear busy to you even if it had no traffic outside those moments you were there with the 5 others. Similarly the news can report on outliers using AI while most people you know IRL may not use it. In other words, it is accurate, the groups are not the same, and statistics often don't feel like they reflect reality.
ronbenton 42 minutes ago||||
Humans are complex. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume there are a lot of people who both rely on and don't like the idea of AI. People can need a car to get around and also be worried about the effects of car emissions. People can dislike cigarettes and be smokers.
hcsennczadno 42 minutes ago|||
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declan_roberts 47 minutes ago|||
I've never seen a technology hated as much as AI currently is outside of tech. However, most people aren't moralizing about it, they just hate it.

Turns out you can have strong opinions about things without it being an issue of morality.

sleples 40 minutes ago||
Most people I've spoken to in private hate AI in tech too, they just keep quiet out of fear for their job (voice any objection to AI? next on the chopping block), so you only hear the pro AI voices.
TobTobXX 37 minutes ago||
I don't work in tech (school teacher), so the main way I interact with tech people is online.

IME, everyone I meet offline has some low-level caution about AI taking their job, but uses AI and is amazed by their capabilities and is glad for this tool.

Most ppl I meet online are strong anti-AI advocates.

bensyverson 30 minutes ago||
This article is representative of what's wrong in internet culture. It's fine to take a moral stance, but it's not reasonable to expect others to agree with and align with your personal morals.

I've been vegetarian for over 30 years, on moral (environmental) grounds. It does put me in the minority. But I don't expect others to change their behavior.

If you want to avoid AI, avoid AI. If you feel strongly enough that you want to avoid entire companies or corners of the internet, great. These are just the side effects of having a strong opinion.

declan_roberts 48 minutes ago||
I think many of us actually have a moral stance on AI, it's just that it's somewhat similar to our moral stance on cars, power tools, heavy machinery, the loom, etc.
literallyroy 37 minutes ago||
Thank you for putting this in more generalized terms. I was just thinking replace AI with smart phone and this reads the same.
cm2012 38 minutes ago|||
For sure, and for me that means AI tech is a great moral good like all human productivity improving technology.
wuhhh 42 minutes ago||
Accepted answer
TaupeRanger 25 minutes ago||
The post links to a pretty silly article with checkboxes about "accepting" certain "facts" about AI, which the author says they resonated with:

> I accept the models were trained on stolen data.

"Stolen" is a moral stance that not everyone agrees with.

> I accept that the data was labeled by exploited workers.

Yes - and you just ordered DoorDash, which delivered food made by exploited workers and delivered by exploited workers. In fact, almost every convenience you enjoy is the result of some level of exploitation. That doesn't mean it's morally right, but if your outrage is pointed at GenAI (one of the technologies that can potentially level the playing field and remove some amount of exploitation) at the exclusion of these other things, you are simply rage farming.

> I accept the environmental costs of the data centers running these models.

No, they are totally overblown, and if you actually cared about any of these environmental issues, you would realize that data centers are not even in the top 100 things to be concerned about: https://blog.andymasley.com/p/the-ai-water-issue-is-fake

> I accept that I am outsourcing some of my skills to a company.

No, I am outsourcing boring grunt work and using my skills in more meaningful and exciting ways.

> I accept these companies don’t have a viable business model.

Yes, I accept that, and if they fail I'll use another company's models. This technology isn't going away - why as a consumer do you care if one of the providers goes out of business?

> I accept that I am granting more power to big tech and their vision for the world.

I suppose, but we all pretty much accepted that 20-30 years ago.

> I accept that I am granting more power to the United States.

I suppose, but we all pretty much accepted that 80 years ago.

> I accept that all this effort could have been spent elsewhere.

It's not clear to me yet that the effort was poorly spent - who knows where AI will go, and what great things might potentially come from it?

skrebbel 41 minutes ago|
This is like a vegan refusing to be around, let alone eat with, meateaters.

As vegans and vegetarians (and decades earlier, non-smokers) have shown, you can have a principled stance on something without forcing that stance on others. Yes, it sucks. Yes, your impact will be smaller. But it’s a lot easier to maintain than to break off contact with a friend who dares ask ChatGPT a question.

bawolff 17 minutes ago||
> As vegans and vegetarians (and decades earlier, non-smokers) have shown, you can have a principled stance on something without forcing that stance on others.

If you truly believe something is evil, i think that is difficult. Like imagine if someone said, i believe murder is wrong but i dont want to force that on others. Or, i dont really like slavery but that's just me and others should be slave owners if they feel that is right.

Obviously there is a spectrum of moral ills, and not all are created equal, but if you truly believe something is abhorent, you can't be a good person and tolerate it in others

juleiie 1 minute ago||
There is no such thing as good person or evil person anywhere else other than in human society.

It’s just a brain fart to make you cooperative and evolutionary survive. You don’t need to listen to this primitive instinct. You can just choose consciously the best.

Do not share or propagate or promote this view however. Our society only works thanks to most people being slave to these things.

insanetake 25 minutes ago|||
Also, anyone who is anti-AI because of environmental reasons but still eats meat is a huge hypocrite.
dist-epoch 32 minutes ago||
It's not that simple, some principles are more principled than others.

Would you be friend with Goebbels, knowing he has some different stances than you on some subjects?

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