Posted by cafkafk 11 hours ago
I ended up getting a modern 26B MoE model (Gemma 4) running at reading speed on an old recycled server with a single Xeon E5-2620 v4 and 128GB of DDR3 RAM (and no GPU). It took a lot of work, but it actually worked out somehow.
I've also linked the quants at the end, but they're not gonna run unless you use the ik_llama-cpp fork I mention, see other posts for more details.
I'm not an ML engineer, so I'm by no means an expert, and the server is busy acting as a Nix cache, but if you have any question, I can try to answer, but best effort.
But ... isnt that a classic use case for SMT? Giving T1 sth. to do while T0 is waiting on DDR(3) and vise-versa?
I also dont understand the explanation of "--cpu-moe". If an expert has ~ 4.0 GiB of Parameters, why does optimizing the sequence of experts minimize cash trashing? With 20 MiB of L3 Cash vs 4.0 GiB of Parameters, it wont cash any noticeable amount of the Parameters, will it?
As mentioned by others, only some Intel Xeon E5-2xxx v4 did support DDR3, and according to Intel, the E5-2620 v4 is not one of them.
Waiting in terms of latency. When the bus is mostly empty and it takes a while to make a round trip it's great to try to find a few extra passengers to put on it. When the buses are all completely full adding the extra riders just makes the bus stop that much more chaotic.
Given knowable runtime hardware usage patterns (huge bursts of memory bandwidth saturation) and a single limited core/thread-shared resource (memory bandwidth), one could optimize for the constraint ahead of runtime.
Because most of the performance optimization levers you have available to pull are (a) trade compute for memory bandwidth (e.g. compression), (b) preload when memory bandwidth is available, (c) optimize the choice of what's in cache when, (d) align to cache size / memory boundaries.
Or tl;dr, try to approximate GPU ISAs at the CPU compiler level. (Which why would anyone but hobbyists, because everyone else just buys pallets of Nvidia/AMD or designs their own ML chips?)
I wonder if I could get similar or even better performance from similar Dell T7610 workstation with dual Xeons and also 128GB DDR3?
The CPUs are better core wise, but that probably does not make much difference?
It has CPUs 2 × Xeon E5-2697 v2
Cores / threads 24 cores / 48 threads total
Per-CPU cores 12 cores / 24 threads
Base clock 2.70 GHz
Max turbo 3.50 GHz
It is sitting gather dust but reading spead Gemma sounds promising.
I just picked up the DDR3 board, an Aliexpress "XD3" so I could reuse some DDR3 ram on a better CPU. Quad channel 1866MT/s is not bad!
CPU(s): 32
On-line CPU(s) list: 0-31
Vendor ID: GenuineIntel
Model name: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2680 0 @ 2.70GHz
This poor thing is currently a YouTube watching box.
I have a dual E5-2667 v2 server with 512GB DDR3 and it's quite nice, the memory bandwidth is higher than of a DDR4 desktop with a way newer CPU, even though it's ECC and registered.
You say it runs "at reading speed". Have you benchmarked it?
Noted, and agree (it looks like it has also already been clicked, which I dislike). I honestly I need to redo the themes.
> You say it runs "at reading speed". Have you benchmarked it?
At some point a few weeks ago, yes I think so, but I didn't write it down for some reason... so I'll have to find a time when it's not busy and do it again without a noisy system. Right now the system is noisy, but that said doing it like this:
llama-cli --model gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-Q8_0.gguf --model-draft gemma-4-26B-A4B-t-assistant-GGUF/wikitext-2-raw_ik-llama-mtp_drafter-conservative/gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-assistant-Q8_0.gguf --spec-type mtp --draft-max 3 --draft-p-min 0.0 --color -sm graph -smgs -sas -mea 256 --split-mode-f32 --temp 0.7 --cpu-moe -t 8 --flash-attn on --mla-use 3 --merge-up-gate-experts --special --mlock --run-time-repack --spec-autotune --no-kv-offload --parallel 8 --jinja -p "Why is the sky blue?" -n 128
Gives:
llama_print_timings: load time = 83911.65 ms
llama_print_timings: sample time = 26.99 ms / 128 runs ( 0.21 ms per token, 4742.15 tokens per second)
llama_print_timings: prompt eval time = 343.41 ms / 7 tokens ( 49.06 ms per token, 20.38 tokens per second)
llama_print_timings: eval time = 10639.36 ms / 127 runs ( 83.77 ms per token, 11.94 tokens per second)
llama_print_timings: total time = 11114.98 ms / 134 tokens
When I do it properly, I'll add it to the blog as well!
2010s Javascript, putting down the controller: Ha, no one will ever surpass my high score for wasting programmer time with dependency churn...
2026 Open Source ML: Hold my beer.
A GPU typically processes close to 1000 tokens/s during eval.
It's probably too small for the timings to be taken seriously.
Hyperscalers can perform this evaluation very quickly because evaluation can be significantly parallelized. The layer `i` output of token `j` only requires access to the layer `i-1` output of all previous tokens, so a parallel frontier develops. Token (0,0) [(token, layer)] is processed first, then tokens (0,1) and (1,0) can be processed in parallel, then (0,2), (1,1), and (2,0), and so on.
The maximum parallel width becomes equal to the number of layers in the model. Gemma 4 26B-A4B model discussed in this article evidently has 30 layers, giving a 30-fold speedup if the system were otherwise unconstrained (all layers can be run in parallel, and one full set of layer outputs is completed in the KV pass for each pass of the parallel sweep).
In the specific output above, however, the input prompt is only seven tokens long so there are probably considerable non-amortized spinup effects at play.
The test prompt above was "Why is the sky blue?", so there's the seven tokens. I meant to highlight that because I'd expect processing of a thousand-token input to be faster per token than presented.
So either you have a v2 instead of a v4 (and run on DDR3 memory), or you have a v4 but with DDR4 memory (not DDR3)
Everything else doesn't work
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/92986/i...
Yup that's odd... I've got a Xeon 2680 v4 (14 cores) (amazing bargain of a little beast btw) and it's indeed on DDR4 and I saw all Xeons v4 as supporting DDR4 only.
Full spec (brand/model/mobo type) would have been nice: mine's an HP Z440 workstation repurposed as a server (which I only turn on when I'm working and which I religiously turn off before going to bed).
One node's ipmitool sensor report (and self-monitoring PSU, so grain of salt, but my UPS side monitoring tracks closely), reports 250-300w average power use. This though, mind you is for running 22 spinning disks, 2 SAS/SATA SSDs, and 4 NVME ssds, and 768GB of DDR4.
Mid-gen 2015ish Xeons were not great at power reduction, but if you are pegging the cores, they were never particularly slow, and they did have lots of PCIe lanes. This boils down to the CPU/mobo itself not being that big a cost floor, especially if you have high utilization rates.
As a comparison, my main desktop development machine, running a Threadripper 9970X, 128GB of DDR5, a RDNA4 GPU, and a small pile of NVME drives has a power floor of roughly 250W. Some CPU centric workloads you'll definitely lose out on on the older gens of machines, but they are by no means impractical.
Maybe for a desktop usecase they are absolutely suboptimal nowadays, but for a lot of realworld usecases I would say they're still relevant.
---
Like the author posts for the LLM usecase, I think optimizing the hardware choice to the application and not leaving levers unpulled is a big key, especially considering how wide a variety of bandwidth/power draw/peak frequency/corecount SKUs exist in the Xeon lines. Without knowing what you intend to run and fitting the correct processor to it, you will end up with a disappointingly poor environment fit.
As long as performance is useable (apply your own metrics!), pulling it from existing hardware is likely the option with the lower eco footprint.
Also: chances are it'll only be used for this purpose occasionally, and/or for a short while. In that scenario [fabricating new hardware] always has the bigger eco footprint.
If you’ve got something consuming 100 watts average over your 24 hour period, and your electricity costs 20 cents per kWh, you’re already spending almost as much as a Claude subscription.
Just on electricity, this assumes your hardware never fails and you never incur any additional costs.
There’s a big reason why newer more efficient hardware is in demand. Something that’s 10+ years old has drastically worse performance per watt.
Obviously I am not saying to throw away your old hardware as a rule but there is a point where some of this old stuff just isn’t even worth running.
Claude subscription pricing is a broken way to consider footprint.
For a long time, too. Programming languages rarely change much, techniques rarely change, so I should be able to use said model for I hope at least five years; and if at any time they optimize local models to cram even more intelligence into the same amount of VRAM, I can upgrade to that.
I like this path.
I experiment with all of the local models I can fit into 32GB of VRAM and I have subscriptions to multiple SOTA providers.
The difference between them is very large, unfortunately. The local models can handle small tasks and refactoring mostly okay, but doing anything challenging with them becomes a waste of time. Unfortunately the waste isn’t immediately obvious because they will come back with something that looks like it works, but then on closer examination I need to throw it out and reset them in a usable direction.
I have seen the results of some early attempts. It fails in such hilarious ways that all these companies are scared of productizing it. But once someone does it, the taboo is broken and everyone else will follow suit immediately.
I don’t know OpenAI’s infra, but to the extent they are buying GPUs and building data centers with their own money, that sounds like a bad move.
Satya has mismanaged the AI transition in many ways, but one thing he got right is that models are commodities, and the value is in applications that apply them to create user benefit. I agree that any company trying to build a moat with a model is not long for this world.
This is also why the money being poured into datacenters isn't going to result in as much development as you think. It's about leveraging other people's money to lockdown more future hardware. This is going to end exactly like fiber build out in the 2000s. Eventually that fiber got used but the folks who originally paid for it got hosed.
Paradoxically, the better results we get from general harness of coding agents, the less moat Claude and co. get. It's unbelievably how fast some open models outpaced frontier models of just a few months ago.
In my opinion, the bottleneck is the package management layer and not the model capabilities and performance.
I have been an avid Linux user for decades, and if I find it confusing and painful, something is missing.
Sadly - it's going to be ads. Advertising is going to get in there and enshittify the whole thing because as always, advertising income is too easy and too plentiful for any company to resist.
Right now the models are fairly agnostic, but we are a hair-breadth away from ChatGPT responding with, "the right tool for this job is a circular saw - something like the Milwaulkee M18, which happens to be on sale at Home Depot this weekend."
Enough to validate repurposing an existing workstation with enough RAM, or finding a used high VRAM GPU, or in my case buying a Strix Halo system for home lab and local models.
The future is once again not cloud based, for AI tools.
It makes sense to show some ads and get some money at low volume (like a faraway reader wanting to read a story in your local newspaper) but taking money from regular users directly will pay much more.
Newspapers are happy to cannibalize 99% of their ad revenue with a paywall if that 1% subscribes because that’s how much more money you make from someone paying $10-$20/month vs ads.
But yeah, if people use it as a buying recommendation engine, that’s where the money is on ads/referrals but a lot of AI use has little/no connection to buying intent touchpoints.
LLMs may or may not be able to cover their costs with it. We'll see - I suspect product placement as recommendations will become a thing as it won't take as much GPU to give a "recommendation" on "the best widget for X". I firmly expect it to become enshittified the same way google and amazon search has.
And that's if LLMs don't become commodified.
Now it's compliant with the law.
I run my word processing software on my apple 2 (a total joke of a computer) instead of running it on the WANG.
I run my book keeping software on visicalc instead of the IBM.
I run my simulation software on my IBM PC (I even paid for the 8087!) instead of the VAX.
Moore's law has, at least so far, allowed the pioneers with toy computers to grow their toys big enough to solve "big boy" problems after some time has allowed the toy computers to be faster and the pioneers have scaled their crappy home-grown solution to solve their 60% of the problem that was originally solved by some enormous complex system.
Eventually the toy infrastructure gets expensive and solves 90-120% of the "big iron" problem space, but it also grows to cost as much as the big iron solution, but then a new generation of toy software and toy systems emerges to disrupt the "big iron" systems.
See also http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/W/wheel-of-reincarnation.htm...
If a vendor can SaaS a solution, then enterprise is generally happy (they don't want to have to hire folks for maintenance), and that completely locks out any ability to run locally.
Between enterprise's ambivalence and the obvious financial incentive to vendors, you get SaaS-only products.
Make the local AI competent enough to do good image generation and editing, realtime voice and music generation, handle agentic tasks with a framework like Hermes, and you can take your AI places to do tasks in contexts that are inaccessible to or inappropriate for cloud.
Frontier big platform models will be the best, but there's a level of "good enough" for local uses that we're already seeing flourish, and "good enough" for the average joe is almost here.
People -- WANT -- this technology on their home devices and (apparently?) the providers of this tech don't seem to be running a profit so they probably don't want the maintenance tail on their side either.
I think it's a bit different. Inevitable that this becomes a household-run thing? Not likely.
But my downtimes are a bit self-inflicted: changing ISPs which I can personally workaround but harder for a blog where one expects uptime.
The primary feature of "AI" is to process information and reason with a natural language interface at speed, the primary feature of AI bigboys is to provide the machinery that runs the "models".
See the difference?
Hosting a blog 24x7 on a laptop is trivial, except for hyperscaling to the front page of HN and Reddit.
I think you've misunderstood what good enough means in the context - which is a model capable of completing the tasks assigned to it without having the breadth of full generalization. Your analogy breaks down because of this - we did get 'good enough' spec profiles for different hardware. That thing you're wearing on your wrist won't have the same specifications as the box you use to play games.
> a model capable of completing the tasks assigned to it
The thing is, the "task assigned to it" is changing with improved capabilities. If everyone around you in 2036 is using general AI to do amazing stuff, you will probably have little interest in vibe coding slop like it's 2026.
Only if you give in to fads and FOMO.
The core tasks people need change at a much smaller pace.
That's correct. The problem is they have smart people, tons of money, and several years to figure that out, and the best thing they can come up is a coding agent.
The ‘best’ things are; - fuzzy pattern matching algorithms for traffic analysis, human and other image target recognition.
- targeting algorithms that identify ‘suspicious’ individuals in large volumes of metadata.
- fraud analysis
- antagonistic image and video generation, both for fooling other fraud analysis, but also for propaganda, screwing with other actors, etc.
- directed high speed content generation (text, pictures, video) to spam the ‘algorithm’ and allow near realtime identification of additional buttons to push for given target audiences.
- massive marketing/ad manipulation.
Those budget line items (and the suppliers) really want to stay off the radar however, as it makes their life harder.
That would be the dream... no fucking Electron! No lockdown modules.
EDIT: I stand corrected, 200W is apparently way too high of an estimate. I used to run a bunch of old Xeon servers and they slurped watts like crazy, but I can't remember which ones exactly those were.
There's a lot of budget hosting built around chips like these, and they're suprisingly power efficient.
I don't run it anymore but my old server was a dual xeon (with two of those coolers crammed in) and I rarely heard a peep out of it.
[1] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/92986/i...
You likely need to replace the flow-through server chassis system with an active "normal" cooler to achieve a bit of silence.
85W might be about right. My old server CPU is in the same ballpark and compiling kernels it reached about 90w in power usage. If you want to keep it running: idle is not very low power unless you have one of the "low power" L versions, keep that in mind.
Well, you can use it for lots of other things as well.
Compared to the cloud you can probably save up to buy a new server every month. And don't underestimate the gains of having something to experiment on and play with.
Here's my setup. You may want to figure out what the best optimizations are for your specific CPU like AVX2 because mine didn't have most of them. I did try MTP briefly but I wasn't getting performance improvements. You could play around with the batch sizes for cache or context or go even lower for Q2 and don't overcommit on threads either, but I would suggest either defaults or trying out llama-bench. This isn't by any means the best I assume but it worked decently for me and I sometimes swap out Gemma for Qwen. You could also lower q8_0 to q4_0 for more context but it could hurt quality some say, altough I have noticed it too on some models.
# Building
cmake -B build -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release -DGGML_NATIVE=ON -DGGML_BLAS=ON -DGGML_BLAS_VENDOR=OpenBLAS -DGGML_OPENMP=ON
# Running
export OPENBLAS_NUM_THREADS=4
export OMP_NUM_THREADS=4
OPENBLAS_NUM_THREADS=4 OMP_NUM_THREADS=4 \
llama.cpp/build/bin/llama-server -hf unsloth/gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-GGUF:UD-Q4_K_XL --temp 1.0 --top-p 0.95 --top-k 64 --min-p 0.00 --jinja --host 0.0.0.0 --port 8080 --cache-type-k q8_0 --cache-type-v q8_0 --threads 4 --threads-batch 4 --ctx-size 8192 -n 8192 --batch-size 2048 --ubatch-size 512 --no-mmap --mlock --chat-template-kwargs '{"enable_thinking":false}' --no-mmproj -np 1 -fa 1
I'm shoehorning it back in the Optiplex that donated the ram, so it's not ready to go at the moment, but when I had it running on top of the motherboard box as a test I ran the (9B?) gemma4:e4b-it-q4_K_M since it can fit entirely in the 11gb vram. It flew, more than 50tk/s. A model that small isn't useful for coding, but there could be uses. I'd love to figure out a Wake-on-Use and use it as my personal ChatGPT. I'm not sure how that would work... Maybe proxy the LLM thru a Pi with a script to Wake-on-LAN the PC? It'll be a fun weekend project someday.
My always-on LLM is the dense Gemma4:31b that's not quite half in GPU on a 12gb 2060. It's really slow, but the quality is great and my use case is an automated queue so I'm not sitting there watching the output. I have another 2060 but unfortunately the PC won't POST with both installed for some reason.
An impressive effort, and better than I would have thought possible on this hardware -- but still pretty far short of what one needs for an satisfactory interactive session.
Should the market react to the memory shortage, the progress of the Apple silicon continue at the same pace, and what we’ll be able to run locally in 6 years will be very exciting. or frightening.
Also I don’t know what this means for the valuation of the AI companies. I remember asking about this very idea to one of their employees at an event and instead of answering he bailed out to grab a cocktail.
- There is no "moat" (lasting, easy-to-defend technological edge) in AI model businesses. There are just short-term advantages.
- An AI business is a capital-intensive business, just like old factories. Data centers are expensive, models are energy-hungry, and the hardware inside must be replaced every 3–4 years.
- Smaller, specialized models eat margins from below. Transcription, voice, or image detection do not need large models.
There is no reason to expect high margins like you can in traditional software business. Benefits of AI go mostly to consumers.
edit: There is potential for economies of scale. Few megacorps can strive for cost advantage when they achieve scale (Microsoft, Google, Amazon and Meta)
It does seem like the structural characteristics we’ve observed so far suggest there is a kind of flywheel from short-term to long-term advantage due to the capital requirements at various levels.
If you’re Nvidia, making the best GPUs today, the expanding wavefront of demand is consuming them with volume and margins to give you a huge edge in building out the best next generation of GPUs. Similar to how the mobile wave gave TSMC sustained advantage for about a decade now.
I’m guessing this is also what we’re seeing as Anthropic and OpenAI swap spots in the token-vendor market.
If you get a not-quite-the-best gaming GPU like a 5080, you can run local models that are better than the state of the art from early 2025. Depending on what you want to do, you might have to switch models. The one size fits all huge models are still a data center thing.
So there is a bigger incentive to run locally something that's gonna get you $20 or $100 worth of bills to OpenAI than to mirror something that is actually free.
Example: In the past there was a whole market for sound cards, if you wanted your computer to have any "multimedia" capabilities you needed to get a sound blaster but now everybody assumes a computer will produce sound, and it's basically for free as all chips have it. Now sound interfaces are still a thing but only for audiophiles who are esoteric enough like me to believe that it's worth to have that extra hi-fi quality.
What I think it could happen, is that eventually AI will be part of all the chips, just like soundcards. And there will be people who will buy specialized AI from companies that perhaps are not OpenAI or Anthropic but second-generation sleepers who watched the carnage in the market and decided to enter when it was reasonable.
This could be Apple, or Nvidia or something new. They're just waiting for the others to do the research and introduce the taste for it to the masses, just like sound blaster made us fall in love with high fidelity sound in our computers.
Probably nothing. Most users have no idea what an LLM is or how it runs. Anecdotally speaking, I see many LLM users default to whatever their day job provides to them. And even slightly more sophisticated users seem ok with paying for their openai or anthropic subscriptions.
Maybe we will see a small but dedicated group of open weight model users who prefer local llm, but everybody else will just consume from the big providers? The scenario might look something like OS choices today - a small, committed group of Linux users vs the vast majority of other users running Windows, MacOS, or Chrome?
A new game is a totally new world with everything created from scratch. A creation. A model, on the other hand, is a reinterpretation machine for hundreds of years of human creations, but not a creation in itself, more like a discovery.
You would think that by now we would have a much better Bitcoin that's taking over the payment networks of the world but what we actually got is a shitload of shitcoin.
I also had no idea RAM and GPU costs would explode they way they did, just happened to do it the right time. I might try to grab a ~$300 3080 on Ebay and sell the 1080ti, but otherwise it's been a great upgrade -- it sucks electricity like Coca Cola, but otherwise performs fantastic as a workstation, and I'm just gonna drive it til the wheels fall off.
> The E5-2620 v4 is great. Have been using it for 10 years now.
Even then, if a commodity chip isn't pushed full tilt at all times, and assuming that the venting and dissipation are adequate, a commodity chip can last a long time.
Except you can overclock v3 :)
Bearings in fans, caps etc. are also stuff that you need to keep an eye on.
I just replaced a i5-660 thats been powered on since 2010 24/7, heatpaste was fucked so it crashed during heavy loads :)
Which makes sense I suppose.
High-Performance AI on a Budget: Optimizing llama.cpp for Qwen3.5 Inference on a Dual-GPU HP Z440
Guess I am a species-ist after all ;)
e.g. one time I tried making a collaborative drawing application but I messed up the logic, and the brush strokes would just get temporarily mirrored between the client and server, so you'd see it getting drawn over and over again in a loop.
The drawing wasn't stored anywhere, it existed only in the network packets between client and server. Accidental GNU.
http://www.gnuterrypratchett.com/
So I started working on a tool that adds random errors back into my programs. To reintroduce the possibility of such happy little accidents.