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Posted by eustoria 3 hours ago

A walking tour of surveillance infrastructure in Seattle(coveillance.org)
173 points | 72 comments
Lammy 16 minutes ago|
> Each surveillance technology in our field guide includes the following categories to help you “spot” surveillance technology in the wild

One shouldn't trust their eyes alone to spot all the hidden cameras that private property owners love to have covering the streets. For example, it took me months to realize that a tenant in my own building has three cameras pointed down from the windows of their unit and can track my every coming and going if they so wish, and that's an environment I have my eyes on every single day.

I have a modified Olympus OM-D E-M5Ⅱ MFT camera body that I picked up on a whim because it came with a bunch of lenses and batteries and other things I wanted to use with my PEN-F, and it turned out to be amazing for spotting hidden surveillance cameras.

The way it works is that the underlying camera sensor can see IR by design, and an IR-cut filter is installed over it to restrict it to the visible spectrum for photography. The mod simply opens up the camera body and removes that part. Surveillance cameras in dark rooms (or at night on the street) then show up as bright spots, because the modified body can see the ring of IR LEDs they use to illuminate dark scenes for night surveillance.

I don't have any surveillance-spotting images to share, because I usually only do that via the viewfinder live preview (because tbh a photo of an all-black room with a single bright IR blob isn't interesting enough to shoot), but for example here is my IR photo of the Windows XP “Bliss” hill (near the Sonoma/Napa border) both as-shot and after channel mixing:

- https://i.ibb.co/23t4HdrZ/P5160220-1.jpg

- https://i.ibb.co/1Yw8RFLS/P5160220-2.jpg

Not affiliated with and have never purchased from this store, but here are bodies converted for every system: https://www.lifepixel.com/product-category/converted-cameras

nostromo 8 minutes ago||
I think this is just the new normal.

My car was stolen in Seattle and it was found with the person driving it when he was pulled over by police. In the car he had paperwork with his name on it, a weapon, and his work uniform in the trunk with a name badge (he was a security guard - lol) along with a neighborhood witness.

Despite a mountain of evidence, the prosecutors declined to press charges because without direct video evidence of him stealing the car, they would not get a jury to convict, because jurors in Seattle have become accustom to thinking that the only way to overcome reasonable doubt is to have it on video. And even that often isn't enough...

smithkl42 2 hours ago||
I wonder what they mean by this?

> The camera can have different ways of seeing encoded in it, including kinds of gazes that enforce social agreements about what kinds of behavior and people are considered “normal”

The phrase "kinds of gazes" strikes me as the sort of thing that's only going to make sense to people trained in a very particular and idiosyncratic flavor of ethical critique. What a normal person sees here is, "These cameras can detect if people are acting bizarre and dangerous," which is probably something most people would appreciate. In Seattle, the problem, of course, is that the streets are full of people acting bizarre and dangerous, it doesn't take a camera network to find them, and the police seem to be under strict orders not to do anything about it.

myrmidon 1 hour ago||
My best guess would be

[[Surveillance cameras normalize/denormalize behavior in a way that is easily biased and undemocratic.]]

It might e.g. direct the full force of law against a drunk urinating on a tree (easy to spot/classify), while tolerating vicious verbal attacks disguised by somewhat subdued body language (missing data/difficult to detect).

Letting automated surveillance systems judge people will inevitably influence our own collective judgement.

ctoth 1 hour ago|||
> tolerating vicious verbal attacks disguised by somewhat subdued body language

Two people arguing in public, words only, is close to a legal non-event in the US. So I would hope so?

seethishat 1 hour ago||
Until one of them communicates a threat, then it is a criminal matter.
emptybits 38 minutes ago|||
Perhaps, depending on specific intent, credibility, and the nature of harm threatened.

But since this is about surveillance, I hope that detection of verbal threats is not a goal of government surveillance because it's difficult to imagine how that could be accomplished without significant loss of privacy or other liberties.

saltyoldman 31 minutes ago||
I can see it in court now. Our AI monitoring system did indeed know about the threat to the building where 800 people died on Sunday.

It says: " Agent: Voice to text detected: I have everything ready - all the XXX chemicals are ready in the van and I'm going to park in the 900 S Crap St now"

Agent: Thread Level HIGH.

Agent: Looking up local codes.

Agent: Mayor signed SB-1238 in 2026 - no surveillance devices may be used for audio threat determination.

Agent: Threat silenced, but logged.

Judge: Oh, that makes sense. Make sure to bag and tag and bill the families for the bags.

City Employee: We also know who parked the van, should we arrest them.

Judge: No it looks like SB-1238 would forbid us from using this data for the purposes of arrest. I guess send them a thank you letter for testing our laws.

ryeats 11 minutes ago||
This is essentially the Trolley Problem.
stickfigure 41 minutes ago|||
I don't think you're advocating to have our personal conversations continuously monitored whenever outside, but in the context of this thread, that's what it sounds like.
s1artibartfast 32 minutes ago|||
Seems like a fundamental problem if we dont want the laws we passed to be enforced.
mackeye 23 minutes ago||
"we" didn't pass them --- i don't think changing the severity of law enforcement alone can achieve what i wish for in society, but the existence of many laws (and severity of their punishment) i disagree with and thus do not want enforced
bonoboTP 1 hour ago|||
I think it's clear what it means but indeed it's formulated in a critical theory framework (see also "male gaze" in feminist theory) that makes it seem more complicated.

Yes, they take camera images and videos and there is value judgment regarding the behaviors.

Reading between the lines, the authors criticize the approach of law enforcement around drug use and dealing, living on the street in tents etc.

But the language makes it sound like special academic expert language and hence automatically right and high prestige.

thewebguyd 1 hour ago|||
> acting bizarre and dangerous

The problem with surveillance like this becomes "who gets to decide what is bizarre and dangerous?"

bonoboTP 1 hour ago|||
Elected lawmakers and courts.
matheusmoreira 18 minutes ago|||
The ones bought and paid for by billion dollar corporations and industries?
brailsafe 3 minutes ago||
[delayed]
lux-lux-lux 23 minutes ago|||
It’s actually the arbitrary whims of police officers
mc32 1 hour ago|||
They could at least address that the man and woman on the street would easily identify as people who need to be put in a paddy wagon. Leave the unsure cases alone. Get the obvious ones.
RickS 1 hour ago|||
There's a PG essay related to this: https://paulgraham.com/orth.html
Stefan-H 2 hours ago|||
What came to mind is a camera pointed at the cash register tells a very different story than the camera pointed at the ATM, or pointing from the ATM for that matter. Placement and the stories behind them offer interesting perspectives on what the observers are trying to catch or deter.
bonoboTP 1 hour ago||
Do you mean trying to catch employee theft vs theft by externals? Why can't you write plainly instead of in riddles?
superbyte 1 hour ago|||
I miss when every second comment on hn didn't sound like a cop
shortstuffsushi 33 minutes ago||
Usually, I'd say this sort of comment is not really contributing much to the conversation, but in this case I agree with the sentiment. With a lot of these posts about the surveillance tech that's becoming increasingly prominent everywhere in the public, there are a lot of commenters here that seem to be of the opinion that "this is fine, as long as you have nothing to hide, there's nothing lost" - or worse in this case, that perhaps that there's something to be gained by taking the "bizarre and dangerous" off the street. Admittedly, I do not live in one of the cities that have issues with a large homeless population, so the experience is a bit lost on me, but I am surprised to see, especially on this forum, people embrace any form of surveillance state. We evidently have learned nothing by both the performative and actual surveillance adds since the Patriot Act. Perhaps the general populous is in fact on board with this and those of us who aren't are the minority.
Bratmon 18 minutes ago||
> I do not live in one of the cities that have issues with a large homeless population, so the experience is a bit lost on me

That's the key experience you're missing. If you've never lived in a high-homeless/drug abuse area, you don't really understand how thoroughly draining it is on every aspect of civic life.

Barbing 54 minutes ago|||
Gaze language needed to be fleshed out perhaps
gowld 1 hour ago||
>> enforce social agreements about what kinds of behavior and people are considered “normal”

> What a normal person sees here

The post is talking about you.

titzer 7 minutes ago||
America needs to realize that this is absolutely not the land of the free anymore. The government and big business are in cahoots to screw you out of every cent they can and to make sure you're not about to commit some unspeakable act of terror, like hold up the wrong protest sign.
brk 24 minutes ago||
There are too many technical inaccuracies in this to take it serious (or to try and address them all here). Directionally it is fairly accurate, but the author clearly has very little knowledge of surveillance cameras, their capabilities, or even broadly how to identify ALPR vs. traffic control cameras (and similar nuances).
mips_avatar 28 minutes ago||
Still somehow was "impossible" for the Seattle police to recover security camera footage of my bike being stolen under the light rail station security camera.
shermantanktop 2 hours ago||
Lots of po-mo art-school language on this site about “encoding ways of seeing” and “gazes.”

The content itself is somewhat interesting but imo plain language would be more accessible.

patja 1 hour ago||
I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about statements like these which seem to assume the reader is incredibly uninformed and naive, to the point of condescension.

"sends the information to a central storing place (called a database)" TIL what the word database means?

"Amazon can use your purchases to know more about you using patterns." Is this news to someone? Condescending.

"It might be connected to a network (via Internet or radio frequency)" Radio frequency and Internet are not really directly comparable

Also don't like that the site hijacks the appearance of my mouse pointer, which feels similarly disrespectful of the reader.

gs17 1 hour ago|||
The way it's written, I wouldn't be surprised if it was meant to be read by/to children (or at least used by a elementary/middle school teacher).
raincole 1 hour ago|||
I think these criticisms are unjustified. The article could be aiming for less tech-savvy people. Remember the most tech-savvy people in the world are those who enabled the surveillance infrastructure in the first place. Also if you want any meaningful grassroot change, you need to appeal to the less knowledgeable cohorts. Politics is more or less "which informed people can convince the most uninformed ones."

> Is this news to someone?

Yes, many. xkcd 1053.

tencentshill 47 minutes ago||
It's a very strange mix of overexplaining basic concepts and in-depth details. I suspect AI.
xx_ns 3 hours ago||
> A probe packet contains the MAC address as well as the list of all the past Wi-fi networks that your device has tried to join before, which can reveal a lot about you!

Generally, most modern devices send broadcast/wildcard probes precisely to avoid leaking the PNL. From what I know, directed probes are only sent for hidden APs.

rafram 2 hours ago||
And most modern devices randomize MAC addresses ("Wi-Fi addresses" in Apple-ese, for probably obvious reasons) between networks, and even between broadcasts/connections to the same network.
gausswho 1 hour ago|||
I think this is only true for mobile devices? I'm curious how one would configure Linux to randomize MAC addresses by default.
rafram 1 hour ago|||
macOS rotates MAC addresses between networks by default, and between connections to the same network unless it's password-protected. (It's under System Settings -> "Details..." or three-dot menu by a network -> "Private Wi-Fi address.")

Windows also randomizes by default as long as your network controller supports it.

It sounds like Linux requires some textual configuration that depends on your distro.

c22 1 hour ago||||
In Linux changing the MAC address can be done simply on the command line, so I'd probably just write this functionality into a bash script that I'd call before ifup.
warkdarrior 1 hour ago|||
https://fedoramagazine.org/randomize-mac-address-nm/
Jordan1604 1 hour ago|||
[flagged]
oofbey 2 hours ago||
Correct. All major OSes stopped broadcasting the preferred SSID list by 2017, with Android and Linux being the last. Apple stopped in 2014. Windows by 2009.
Barbing 56 minutes ago||

  Flat black circles on top of traffic signal control boxes, which are large, gray or painted metal boxes, typically found at street corners.

  The Acyclica device casts a fake Wi-Fi network and tracks phones that try to join the network in passing cars. Since each phone has a unique identifier …, different Acyclica installations can track your personal location as you pass them in the city.
Is iOS latest susceptible on default settings? w/“Rotating” “Private Wi-Fi Address“
pietervdvn 1 hour ago|
For everyone interested in this topic: with https://mapcomplete.org/surveillance, anyone can easily see and update surveillance camera's in OpenStreetMap
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