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Posted by tosh 2 days ago

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Bay Model(en.wikipedia.org)
158 points | 42 commentspage 2
karlgkk 3 hours ago|
I’d gone here as a young child in school, and then went as part of a team building afternoon. Massive Deja Vu in front of all of my coworkers
e40 4 hours ago||
Took my son there when he was young (6?) and we all loved it. What a great day trip.
nkrisc 8 hours ago||
The distortion is interesting and something I didn’t realize the model included. I assume that it’s necessary because the effects of surface tension and the viscosity of water (and other effects?) change its behavior at this scale relative to the features of the model?
lorenzohess 6 hours ago||
If I recall correctly, at an undistorted scale, the water would be so shallow that surface tension and viscosity would dominate, so the depths are exaggerated to keep the flow realistic.

More specifically, tidal flow obeys Froude similarity, not Reynolds. Matching the model's Froude number to the real Bay's requires enough depth for gravity waves and tides to scale correctly, which the vertical exaggeration provides.

But the distortion makes the flow too efficient, so copper strips are added throughout to achieve the right frictional resistance.

bumby 3 hours ago|||
Have you ever watched a movie with a fire or explosion just didn't look right because it was a scale replica? At a subconscious level, you may have picked up on how the dynamics of the smoke or debris didn't fit right with the scale. It's because the fluids in the model lacked "similitude" at the adjusted scale.

When building scaled models, adjustments have to be made to create that similitude, usually done by comparing some dimensionless number at the real scale and model scale. If you're using water, maybe you can't adjust the viscosity, so you may you have to adjust the velocity to get the same dimensionless number. Everything doesn't just scale linearly; you tweak the variables to achieve the dimensionless value so the whole system dynamics remain faithful.

E.g.,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Froude_number

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_number

WillAdams 7 hours ago||
Yes. Another technique was to use alcohol rather than water since it has lower surface tension, but that was only workable for smaller models (which were usually enclosed).
nkrisc 7 hours ago||
I think a model this size full of alcohol would also be quite hazardous for several reasons.
btrettel 5 hours ago||
Even if it wasn't a large size, it likely wouldn't be great. During my PhD on sprays, I did some (unpublished) experiments using isopropyl alcohol to reduce the surface tension. The nozzles I used were around 1 mm in diameter as I recall. I did not anticipate that the room would fill up with isopropyl alcohol vapor and (probably) tiny droplets. I wore a mask and maybe left the room while each trial was running. Breathing that likely wasn't great for my lungs.
lstodd 2 hours ago||
You just get drunk from the vapour way faster than it can have a measurable impact on the lungs.

(you can actually drink it if it's reasonably pure. it's even less toxic than ethanol, but the hangover is terrible)

redm 8 hours ago||
These are the kinds of interesting engineering challenges that were solved with human ingenuity and grit; I wish we were talking more about them to our youth to inspire imagination about what's possible.
eezing 5 hours ago||
This is a hidden gem in the Bay Area. Go check it out if you live near by.
youngtaff 4 hours ago||
Why do the Army Corps of Engineers get so involved in civil infrastructure in the US - thinking of the Mississippi in particular?

In other countries the government would be involved but it would be a civilian rather than military role

stevenwoo 9 minutes ago||
In addition to sibling comments for intent, the book Cadillac Desert documents how this government agency can be used to further moneyed interests, ie subsidize developments that would otherwise not be economically viable from local funding but become viable when federal taxpayer foots the bill. (The big examples in the book is building cities and farmland in deserts.)
macintux 4 hours ago|||
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Corps_of_En... has a good overview. Note that 97% of the employees are civilians.
bumby 4 hours ago|||
Not sure about the exact thrust of your question but a few points:

- flood management is not easy to monetize so there is not much incentive for private industry. The timelines for design decisions (100 year, 500 year) often don’t mate well with private incentives

- it crosses many property boundaries which makes it hard to manage unless you have the rights of a government

- much of the work is still done by private companies but managed by the government, just like other infrastructure works like roads, bridges etc.

wbl 4 hours ago|||
The US did not have a civilian engineering school for a few decades after the founding. West Point was the only institution creating engineers. Given they had responsibility for port defenses the civil engineering of waterways was an easy addition.
nxobject 3 hours ago||
They're decentralized enough as well that some of their local offices have hilarious online presences. For example, Portland...

https://www.instagram.com/corpsofengineers_portland/

obvioustourist 6 hours ago||
See also the Mississippi River Basin model built by German engineer POWs during WWII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_River_Basin_Model
contingencies 8 hours ago||
The fellow who lived next door to me told me of a similar model system used to model Sydney Harbour which he worked on in the 1970s. IIRC it was instrumented with electronics and linked to a VAX or similar early machine.
emmelaich 6 hours ago|
The Aus Navy had a computer simulation of Sydney Harbour, dating from the 70s or maybe 80s. One particular feature of the system was a disk drive about 1m in diameter with about 12 heads. Cost a bomb, but I guess it was worth it.

When I saw a demo, they had an easter egg of a Loch-Ness type monster in it.

There's also a topographical map of the harbour at St Ives showground but it's purely non-hydrographical. But it's almost disappeared now through neglect.

cucumber3732842 3 hours ago||
>The Aus Navy had a computer simulation of Sydney Harbour, dating from the 70s or maybe 80s. One particular feature of the system was a disk drive about 1m in diameter with about 12 heads. Cost a bomb, but I guess it was worth it.

Meanwhile the Soviets probably found a little inlet somewhere that was "close enough", evicted anyone who lived there and excavated it to match.

Some junior engineer probably had to wake up at 1am to take a kayak out to "Little Kotlin Island" to change the tape in the recording equipment in time for the tide change.

supertroop 6 hours ago|
Don’t show something good the government has done or the POTUS will cancel it!!!